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"I'm anti-gay, but I'm not a homophobe...."


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Wrong. I'm not making an issue out of this at all. .......

Nice words again. However I aways say that actions are what counts and these are the stats in this thread at the time of this post. You are obviously making an issue out of it unlike the Gays that you accuse of doing such.

In regards to anything that I have said that you find slanderous or incorrect you are always free to address it with the other admin on this forum. I welcome you do to so. Barring that, then I assume you don't have any real complaints and your diatribe against Gays on this forum has gone beyond citing disapproval to trolling.

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Nice words again. However I aways say that actions are what counts and these are the stats in this thread at the time of this post. You are obviously making an issue out of it unlike the Gays that you accuse of doing such.

In regards to anything that I have said that you find slanderous or incorrect you are always free to address it with the other admin on this forum. I welcome you do to so. Barring that, then I assume you don't have any real complaints and your diatribe against Gays on this forum has gone beyond citing disapproval to trolling.

bigot.jpg

Instead of multiple-quoting in a single post, I made several responses to posts individually. I think we'd be about even had I done it the other way, or you might even be on top. I feel no need to complain about you to the other admins. You are free to express your opinions, as am I. I have not been warned or censored by you or any other admins., so I think we are both within acceptable bounds! I think we are both adult enough to know exactly where to draw the line. I try not to take what you say personally, but I will also not let you get away with it by keeping silent. You will never be convinced that I am not a bigot, or that I am not making an issue out of this. Like I said before, I will respond in my defense in the face of twisting words, mistruths, or anything along those lines.

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I'm a little confused here...Can someone explain to me what the gay "lifestyle" is? And, if there is a gay "lifestyle" then that would imply that there is a straight "lifestyle" - so while you're at it, you should define that too. And, if gay people "choose" to be gay then I would assume that straight people choose to be straight. So, perhaps everyone who believes that a gay person wakes up one day and decides to "be" gay (perhaps they're in need of a toaster oven or one of the other party-gifts that comes with the "lifestyle") should pin-point at what age they decided to be straight or gay. Once we've been through this little exercise, then we will all know which little compartment (or closet) we belong in.

Then, there's also this matter of oppression - is being beaten severely, tied to a fence post and left to die because you're gay an example of oppression? is being denied housing because you're gay an example of oppression? is being fired because you're gay oppression? is being kicked out of the armed forces because you're gay an example of oppression? is being tied to the back of a pick-up and dragged along a dirt road because you're gay an example of oppression? is being arrested in your bedroom because you're with someone of the same-sex an example of oppression? is having your children taken from you because you're a gay parent an example of oppression? is being denied inheritance rights, hospital visitation rights, tax benefits, etc. because you're gay an example of oppression?...This list could go on ad nauseum and not just with gay examples but with examples for all types of minorities including racial and ethnic, religious, etc.

Also, since I'm so full of questions, what does it mean to "disagree with homosexuality?" Is that like disagreeing with the war on Iraq or disagreeing with a referree's call in a basketball game or perhaps disagreeing with John Kerry's position on healthcare? Can you put it into context? And, by whatever logic is meant by this "disagreement" mean that gay people inherently "disagree" with heterosexuality?

This whole thread is at times very intriguing, but at other times it is highly confusing (as I have illustrated above) and others quite disturbing. The best way to really try to understand where people fit within this whole sexual continuum is to put yourself in the position of someone not of your orientation and consider what it's like to be that person - not just in the bedroom, but commuting to work, shopping at the grocery store, working out, falling in love, breaking up, walking down the street - are any of these activities inherently straight or gay?

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I'm a little confused here...Can someone explain to me what the gay "lifestyle" is? And, if there is a gay "lifestyle" then that would imply that there is a straight "lifestyle" - so while you're at it, you should define that too. And, if gay people "choose" to be gay then I would assume that straight people choose to be straight. So, perhaps everyone who believes that a gay person wakes up one day and decides to "be" gay (perhaps they're in need of a toaster oven or one of the other party-gifts that comes with the "lifestyle") should pin-point at what age they decided to be straight or gay. Once we've been through this little exercise, then we will all know which little compartment (or closet) we belong in.

Then, there's also this matter of oppression - is being beaten severely, tied to a fence post and left to die because you're gay an example of oppression? is being denied housing because you're gay an example of oppression? is being fired because you're gay oppression? is being kicked out of the armed forces because you're gay an example of oppression? is being tied to the back of a pick-up and dragged along a dirt road because you're gay an example of oppression? is being arrested in your bedroom because you're with someone of the same-sex an example of oppression? is having your children taken from you because you're a gay parent an example of oppression? is being denied inheritance rights, hospital visitation rights, tax benefits, etc. because you're gay an example of oppression?...This list could go on ad nauseum and not just with gay examples but with examples for all types of minorities including racial and ethnic, religious, etc.

Also, since I'm so full of questions, what does it mean to "disagree with homosexuality?" Is that like disagreeing with the war on Iraq or disagreeing with a referree's call in a basketball game or perhaps disagreeing with John Kerry's position on healthcare? Can you put it into context? And, by whatever logic is meant by this "disagreement" mean that gay people inherently "disagree" with heterosexuality?

This whole thread is at times very intriguing, but at other times it is highly confusing (as I have illustrated above) and others quite disturbing. The best way to really try to understand where people fit within this whole sexual continuum is to put yourself in the position of someone not of your orientation and consider what it's like to be that person - not just in the bedroom, but commuting to work, shopping at the grocery store, working out, falling in love, breaking up, walking down the street - are any of these activities inherently straight or gay?

:yahoo: <--- That's me, agreeing with your post. You bring up excellent points with some wit.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just skimmed through the first 2 pages...

dpbaker, for what it's worth, I think you make some great points. :thumbsup:

This is a very valuable thread and I hope the moderators will keep it open no matter how ugly it gets. For what's it's worth, I've noticed that some of the worst homophobes are homosexuals...I mean, gay children are brought up in world where they see/hear/read that homosexuality is "bad". If they go to church, they learn that homosexuals burn in hell. If they don't "act" gay they witness "gay-acting" school mates ridiculed, isolated, threatened, and assaulted. They learn to hide. Theylearn to hate themselves. It takes years - and often, it takes their lives - to overcome the self-loathing.

This thread - the conversation society is currently engaged in - is not trivial. For many of us, it's a matter of life or death.

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I was the video store today. Brokeback Mountain is coming out on DVD tomorrow. I said to the woman behind the counter that I didn't realize the movie was being released so soon. She said something about the sheep being the best part of the movie.

Now, this woman is significantly overweight and I thought, let's assume for a second that gay citizens "choose" to be gay. Assume for a second that the Bible really condemns gay men (it says nothing about gay women). The Bible also condemns gluttony. Why should I be subject to watch movies with fat people(?). Should fat people be allowed to marry (?) I can't help but think that, when it comes to gluttonly, Jerry Falwell - when he speaks his chins shake and it's thoroughly replusive - should be banned from public view (?).

Since the woman behind the counter and Jerry Falwell obviously choose to be gluttons - gluttons aren't born that way - we should take legal action to ban our children from being exposed to such sinful behavior (?).

Of course, what they do behind their own kitchen counters is their own business...

:ph34r:

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I think you are beating on a dead horse. In anycase there is a lot of hype about BrokeBack mountain when it actually doesn't break any new ground. That honor would go to the movie Making Love which came out in 1982. BBM isn't anything more than that except that it is set in cowboy days.

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I think you are beating on a dead horse. In anycase there is a lot of hype about BrokeBack mountain when it actually doesn't break any new ground. That honor would go to the movie Making Love which came out in 1982. BBM isn't anything more than that except that it is set in cowboy days.

No problems.

My point isn't about Brokeback Mountain it's about the larger question of accepting homosexuals as valid members of society; I'm trying to use a different context to illustrate the point.

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I don't agree that the main theme of the movie was "accepting homosexuals as valid members of society"

I would say that the main focus seemed to be more "Love sees no boundaries and it will either destroy the social norms that try to cage it in or eventually the people who love outside of the social norms will be destroyed." In the case of Brokeback Mountain, many lives were ultimately ruined by the relationship.

It's the questions that you ask based on this that are important? Should Jack and Ennis have cut the relationship off and lived painful lives but perhaps holding on to a bit of normality with their other lives (wife and children), or should they have been allowed from the beginning to pursue their relationship and live a happy life together without feeling pressured to do the "right" thing?

I think you know which I agree with, but ultimately the movie was extremely sad. The realization that this kind of thing happens quite a bit just makes it worse.

As far as fat people analogy: It's a good one, but you'll never get your point across. Sad as it is.

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I don't agree that the main theme of the movie was "accepting homosexuals as valid members of society"

I would say that the main focus seemed to be more "Love sees no boundaries and it will either destroy the social norms that try to cage it in or eventually the people who love outside of the social norms will be destroyed." In the case of Brokeback Mountain, many lives were ultimately ruined by the relationship.

It's the questions that you ask based on this that are important? Should Jack and Ennis have cut the relationship off and lived painful lives but perhaps holding on to a bit of normality with their other lives (wife and children), or should they have been allowed from the beginning to pursue their relationship and live a happy life together without feeling pressured to do the "right" thing?

I think you know which I agree with, but ultimately the movie was extremely sad. The realization that this kind of thing happens quite a bit just makes it worse.

As far as fat people analogy: It's a good one, but you'll never get your point across. Sad as it is.

I think we are agree Snowguy. The end result is the destructive nature of "social norms".

The fat people analogy was a hard one for me to make b/c I don't enjoy trying to make a point at the expense of other people. I'm looking for analogy that bigots might be able to understand - perhaps in a personal context? - that will illustrate how obsurd prejudice can be...?

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I think you know which I agree with, but ultimately the movie was extremely sad. The realization that this kind of thing happens quite a bit just makes it worse.

Indeed. It is sad and caused by people holding on to what the believe are "social norms" that are no longer relevant in today's complex society. Once the "social norm" of American society was to own slaves but somehow we got over that.

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Indeed. It is sad and caused by people holding on to what the believe are "social norms" that are no longer relevant in today's complex society. Once the "social norm" of American society was to own slaves but somehow we got over that.

I believe that the Bible was used at the time to support the notion that slavery was OK in the eyes of God. How tragic is that?! It seems to me that the major pit-fall for gay citizens and their supporters is when Bible passages are massaged to suit this or that fear of others?

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