"I'm anti-gay, but I'm not a homophobe...."

[GRDadof3]

I'd have to agree with dpbaker. I have no problem admitting that I'm not exactly fond of the gay lifestyle, but when it comes down to it I don't care. There are gay people in my family that I treat as a normal family member and talk to them, I know there are plenty of gay people on this website. It's just that I'm not gonna have a gay person as a close freind or anything, it's not my crowd, but in the same manner that I don't want to hang out with various other groups (gothics, as an example).

Gays, gothics?

I used to have a problem with gays before I actually got to befriend some gay guys I worked with years ago. One of them, Matt, put it to me this way that totally changed the way I think about gays. He explained that he was gay and had never had sex before (he preferred to remain a virgin until he found his life partner). He said "How is that possible for me to be gay and have never had sex before, unless I was born that way?"

I know this will sound a bit elementary, but gay people date, they get their hearts broken, they break up, they fall in love, they worry about how they look, fall into abusive relationships, hope that the person they like "notices them", and everything else that heterosexuals go through. It really has less to do with sex than most people believe.

And to say they are "not your crowd". I just don't get it.

[Snowguy716]

I need to organize my posts better. The top part of that post was addressed to DPBaker (Sorry. I mistakenly read "work with geneticists that would counter that evidence" as "I'm a geneticist".)

The second part was too all the wishy-washy "I hate the action, not the person" people. And I stand by it. People who think that think gays are sinning by default aren't much better than bigots. People who think it's unnatural because they're not gay themselves also really proves how closed-minded some people are. But alas, I cannot blame them personally. The combination of fearing foreign ways of life and the unknown has been driving humans to violence and bigotry since we were swinging in trees. But we don't have these big brains for nothing. We can overcome the bigotry through learning.

And, I'm sorry if you thought it was directed at you DPBaker, but hte last question was rhetorical. Unfortunately you cannot really do rhetorical questions in a textual format without noting it.

And about me being closed minded? I'll admit it. When it comes to unfounded hate towards a group that has done nothing to harm you in anyway, I am quite intolerant.

[Recchia]

There are certain things about yourself that you simply do not "choose", and that's that. People are whoever they are, and labels are meaningless and stupid. Straight, gay, bi, into friggen animals, who cares? If it bothers you what other people are in to, then you have some real problems. Worry about yourself.

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

I think everyone has a choice in what they do, for most cases. That doesn't mean people aren't predisposed by nurture or nature to do something, but behavior is always a choice. I think it is valid for people to be opposed or debate the morality of certain behavior that people do. A society that revokes the right to oppose behavior on moral grounds would be anarchical and unhealthy.

The key is that some actions are self destructive and socially destructive. Some people are predisposed to violence, pedophilia, binge eating, binge drinking, you name it. Every vice and crime could be justified if our society starts saying that as long as you feel predisposed to doing it, it is okay.

You're making an assumption that being gay is solely about sex. It isn't. Gay is not something you do, it is something you are. No one would ever make those assumptions about me being straight. Is your heterosexuality an action? Like some heteros, some people who are gay have sex. Like some heteros, some gay people value relationships. All the "actions" you accuse gay people of doing is done by heteros as well. Seriously, no straight person has ever had anonymous sex? There is a world of information out there about gay history. Search it out. Read it. I'm sure it would help dispell some of the myths you believe.

Do you realize you compared homosexuality to addictive disorders and violence? I was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. Being gay is SO not the same as pedophilia. There is a huge difference between being violated and consenting adults enjoying each others' company.

[Recchia]

You're making an assumption that being gay is solely about sex. It isn't. Gay is not something you do, it is something you are. No one would ever make those assumptions about me being straight. Is your heterosexuality an action? Like some heteros, some people who are gay have sex. Like some heteros, some gay people value relationships. All the "actions" you accuse gay people of doing is done by heteros as well. Seriously, no straight person has ever had anonymous sex? There is a world of information out there about gay history. Search it out. Read it. I'm sure it would help dispell some of the myths you believe.

Do you realize you compared homosexuality to addictive disorders and violence? I was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. Being gay is SO not the same as pedophilia. There is a huge difference between being violated and consenting adults enjoying each others' company.

Excellent points. You put into words exactly what I'm thinking.

[dpbaker]

Heh, When someone says they disapprove of you, can't give a rational reason for doing so and has no intention of changing their judgement, then there really isn't any point in trying to accept their position. Being open minded does not mean that you have to be understanding of bigotry.

If you can point out the bigotry from where I stand on the issue, please do so.

[dpbaker]

The second part was too all the wishy-washy "I hate the action, not the person" people. And I stand by it. People who think that think gays are sinning by default aren't much better than bigots. People who think it's unnatural because they're not gay themselves also really proves how closed-minded some people are. But alas, I cannot blame them personally. The combination of fearing foreign ways of life and the unknown has been driving humans to violence and bigotry since we were swinging in trees. But we don't have these big brains for nothing. We can overcome the bigotry through learning.

And about me being closed minded? I'll admit it. When it comes to unfounded hate towards a group that has done nothing to harm you in anyway, I am quite intolerant.

Well, I never said anything about sinning by default, and I certainly hope you are not implying that I have an unfounded hate towards gays. I don't think you are, wanna make sure......some people do!! Indeed!! I'm not saying that others do not condemn it as sin, or have this unfounded hatred, but Inever said any such thing.

[monsoon]

If you can point out the bigotry from where I stand on the issue, please do so.

Your first post here said you disapprove of "the Gay Lifestyle". You next said that being Gay is a "choice" and hence you are justified in your disapproval of Gays because there is nothing wrong with not liking people's choices. You compared being Gay to the whim of someone choosing to go to a soccar game. You also equated Gays to sinners. And you have called the arguments made by Gays on this forum, who have faced the discrimination by bigots as "Bunk".

True you have used clever wording which only goes to the very first post I made in this thread.

There are still a lot of people in this country who hate Gays. However most are not willing to admit it anymore so they hide behind excuses such as the one you describe.

The bottom line is that bigotry is bigotry no matter how it is rationalized.

And then you finally said that someone not agreeing with your view is intolerant and not open minded. All bigots say that.

If you are saying that we have mis-intepreted you, or that you really didn't mean any of this then so be it. However I suspect this isn't the case. There is another word that describes this that is considered a sin by some.

[dpbaker]

Gay is not something you do, it is something you are. No one would ever make those assumptions about me being straight. Is your heterosexuality an action? Like some heteros, some people who are gay have sex. Like some heteros, some gay people value relationships. All the "actions" you accuse gay people of doing is done by heteros as well. Seriously, no straight person has ever had anonymous sex? There is a world of information out there about gay history. Search it out. Read it. I'm sure it would help dispell some of the myths you believe.

So then, what exactly is "gay"? What makes one "gay"? What is the difference between "gay" and "straight"? Are these terms defined by a set of actions, beliefs, or values? Perhaps all of the above? Is there anything that distinguishes "homosexual" from "gay", or are they the same thing?

Does not an action/set of actions to some extent (if not completely) place one into the categories of either homo-, or hetero-sexual? Or, is it strictly the category by birth or choice that determines the actions?

[monsoon]

So then, what exactly is "gay"? What makes one "gay"? What is the difference between "gay" and "straight"? Are these terms defined by a set of actions, beliefs, or values? Perhaps all of the above? Is there anything that distinguishes "homosexual" from "gay", or are they the same thing?

Gays don't like to be referred to as homosexuals because bigots often use this term in the tirades against the Gay community, especially from the days of being jailed for it. If you are saying you are so ignorant that you don't know what a Gay person is then I am amazed given your so called expertise above with genetics on the subject. Please don't be disingenious.

Does not an action/set of actions to some extent (if not completely) place one into the categories of either homo-, or hetero-sexual? Or, is it strictly the category by birth or choice that determines the actions?

No, its the other way around and we have already covered the choice issue.

[dpbaker]

Your first post here said you disapprove of "the Gay Lifestyle". You next said that being Gay is a "choice" and hence you are justified in your disapproval of Gays because there is nothing wrong with not liking people's choices. You compared being Gay to the whim of someone choosing to go to a soccar game. You also equated Gays to sinners. And you have called the arguments made by Gays on this forum, who have faced the discrimination by bigots as "Bunk".

True you have used clever wording which only goes to the very first post I made in this thread.

And then you finally said that someone not agreeing with your view is intolerant and not open minded. All bigots say that.

If you are saying that we have mis-intepreted you, or that you really didn't mean any of this then so be it. However I suspect this isn't the case. There is another word that describes this that is considered a sin by some.

Ah! Clever wording on your part as well, or plain deceit. I said "choice" in the case of my friend. In other words, it CAN also be a choice. I never equated gays to being sinners, I was alluding BACK to a post by Messien Corners in which that person used that phrase. And again, you attempt to deceive when I have NOT ONCE claimed an argument here made by other gays or otherwise is "Bunk". "Bunk" referred to the very first post about the use of the prefix "anti" and how that fit into the picture. Go back and read everything again.

Never once did I say that not agreeing with me was intolerant or closed-minded. Intolerance and close-mindedness is the unwillingness to accept another side of an argument as valid, you clearly demonstrate this well. And once again, you have indirectly accused me of being a bigot. I think the bigot here is you.

I am saying you've mis-interpreted me, or selectively decided what you want tp read, hear, or believe. mean everything I said, of course!!!! Nothing bad, derogatory, or otherwise unacceptable has been said here, at least not to a rational person. No lies, deceit, or malice going on here.

[dpbaker]

Gays don't like to be referred to as homosexuals because bigots often use this term in the tirades against the Gay community, especially from the days of being jailed for it. If you are saying you are so ignorant that you don't know what a Gay person is then I am amazed given your so called expertise above with genetics on the subject. Please don't be disingenious.

No, its the other way around and we have already covered the choice issue.

Are you and Snowguy the same person?????? Did you not read my posts on the whole genetics thing??? Never claimed expertise on the issue. Sorry, if the word "homosexual" offends you, not aimed at you. I guess we should curse that d**ned Webster. I have my idea of what a "gay" person is, but I'm very curious as to what experts like you think it means. I want to hear the myriad definitions that are out there, what it is to several individuals, gay or not. Opinions, etc. Nobody is being disingenous, just trying to be that bigot you want me to be.

[monsoon]

Are you and Snowguy the same person??????

No, we do not allow alter egos on this site. I am not low enough to create an alterego for myself to support my arguments. I don't need to do this.

[dimebag1980]

There's a difference between not wanting to have or witness gay sex and condemning someone's entire "lifestyle" (which for most of us extends beyond the bedroom I'll have you know), and using that condemnation as an excuse to oppress someone.

Does oppression really even exist in the United States today? I don't believe so. I think we have a lot of people in this country who believe they're oppressed, but in reality they have no idea just how good they really have it living in this country.

Bunk. The "anti" prefix can be often too stroing, or misused. If somebody disagrees with something does that mean they are "anti"? So if I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, am I anti-gay? Does that make me "homophobic"? No. If I was afraid of gay people, maybe I'd be homophobic. Disagreeing with something doesn't automatically make you an anti- or a -phobe.

Joe likes soccer, you don't. Does that make you a Joe-o-phobe, or an Anti-Joe? No. You might prefer a different sport. I have a good friend that happens to be gay, admittedly by choice. I don't agree with that lifestyle selection. But that is his business. I am neither afraid of him, nor offended by his choice. I do not attempt to coerce him, oppress him, or otherwise get him to change that, though he knows how I stand on the issue. If I said, "I absolutely hate gays, will never have a gay friend, and they are all wrong" that would be intolerant or perhaps discriminatory. So am I having my cake and eating it too? Am I hating the sin but loving the sinner? The two are not necessarily related.

If you were to label me, would that not then make you the intolerant one? Be cautious of your generalizations and definitions. I do see your point though, and it would certainly be applicable to many, not all.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I disagree with homosexuality, but I'm not afraid of homosexuals or what they stand for... I simply disagree with it, therefore I'm not a homophobe. I'm also not a bigot because, just because I disagree with it, I don't bash them for it. It's their choice, whether I agree with it or not.

[dpbaker]

No, we do not allow alter egos on this site. I am not low enough to create an alterego for myself to support my arguments. I don't need to do this.

I was being facetious.......just drawing parallels......

[cityboi]

as a christian, I believe that everyone should be accepted regardless of race, gender and even sexually orientation. This is what the christian bible teaches. I was raised not to hate anyone so if you are gay, so what. What someone is or isnt isnt bothering me. I dont understand what causes people to be attracted to someone of the same gender but I do believe its not a choice. I'm straight because thats just the way im am so I figure its the same for people who are gay. Just like some people hate coconut and some people love it, its not a matter of choice. The human brain operates differently in everyone and perceives things differently. There is also a difference in being gay and living a gay lifestyle and I think man has twisted biblical scripture. I dont believe in the so call gay gene but I think it may have alot to do with hormones during pregnancy combined with environmental factors as the child grows up. We know very little about the human brain so therefore we know very little for causes homosexuality.

[GRCentro]

I think everyone has a choice in what they do, for most cases. That doesn't mean people aren't predisposed by nurture or nature to do something, but behavior is always a choice. I think it is valid for people to be opposed or debate the morality of certain behavior that people do. A society that revokes the right to oppose behavior on moral grounds would be anarchical and unhealthy.

I agree 100%. Well said.

[Recchia]

This thread is going nowhere. "Homosexuality", "heterosexuality", are merely man's labels for "behavior" that we think we understand. Nobody chooses one or the other, and nothing, especially sexual orientation can just be lumped into two categories, it goes way deeper than that.

The bible blah blah, genetics, blah blah, the brain, blah blah, whatever, the whole idea of sexual orientation shouldn't even be an issue.

[dpbaker]

The bible blah blah, genetics, blah blah, the brain, blah blah, whatever, the whole idea of sexual orientation shouldn't even be an issue.

Maybe not, but it is. And a complex one at that, certainly worthy of discussion and exploration. If for nothing else, then to at least attempt to bring understanding of this big ball of wax to all sides.

[monsoon]

Maybe not, but it is. And a complex one at that, certainly worthy of discussion and exploration. If for nothing else, then to at least attempt to bring understanding of this big ball of wax to all sides.

For those of us who are Gay and for the majority of Americans, it is not a big ball of wax. It is only an issue for those who disapprove of us and/or want to discriminate against Gays.

[dubone]

You're making an assumption that being gay is solely about sex. It isn't. Gay is not something you do, it is something you are. No one would ever make those assumptions about me being straight. Is your heterosexuality an action? Like some heteros, some people who are gay have sex. Like some heteros, some gay people value relationships. All the "actions" you accuse gay people of doing is done by heteros as well. Seriously, no straight person has ever had anonymous sex? There is a world of information out there about gay history. Search it out. Read it. I'm sure it would help dispell some of the myths you believe.

Do you realize you compared homosexuality to addictive disorders and violence? I was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. Being gay is SO not the same as pedophilia. There is a huge difference between being violated and consenting adults enjoying each others' company.

I sure hope the "you" was just rhetorical, because I have never accused any gay person of anything in my life, and this is one of only a couple posts on the subject, and you definitely missed my meaning. My parents' best friend since childhood in the 1950s is gay, and they have consistently supported him when most did not throughout half a century. That was how I was raised. Ironically enough, that was the indirect point of my post.

I don't even know where to begin, because for the most part, I don't know how you took some of those interpretations out of my words.

My post was more on the philosophical end of the spectrum. Society can not live with the argument that simply because someone is predisposed to a behavior that it is therefore moral. The reference to violence, pedophilia, and others are examples of what some people in this world are predisposed to do, but do not become right or moral simply by the fact that they were predisposed. Frankly, I was contrasting homosexuality to the extreme behaviors, not comparing.

To me, being born gay or becoming gay (nature v nurture) is less relevant than the fact that they are gay and there are clear social and personal benefits to their expression of that freely and honestly. The moral arguments should be won based on the effect of positive gay relationships and the clear benefit to society that results. I just (repeat) don't want to dillute our society's ability to hold moral stands in the future just because it made the wrong moral stand for too long on this issue (gay relationships). If society is too strong in saying that predisposition justifies behavior, then it can easily go too far. (Maybe that is too parsed an argument to have in the coffee house, but I tried. )

Also note that I posted "regardless of gender combination" for what I believe to be immoral, meaning that I consider the hetero- or homosexual situations equal morally (isn't that the desired outcome?). I'm not sure how that got interpretted as saying that straight people don't have anonymous sex, but, um, they do. There is also a significant amount of pedophilia going on it seems, sadly (and I'm very sad that happened to you by the way ). In my view, pedophilia is egregious, the other is naughty and potentially destructive.

Also, maybe I should have stated it outright, but I thought it was an obvious extrapolation from I wrote: I believe monogamous gay sex and relationships to be moral and good for society, just as I believe monogamous straight sex and relationships to be moral and good for society.

As for the 'not about sex' thing, I see your point, but I was just referring to the moral questions, and who on earth is going to say that a same gender friendship (a non-sexual relationship) is immoral? That is just silly.

Hope that clears up my meaning some.

[dpbaker]

For those of us who are Gay and for the majority of Americans, it is not a big ball of wax. It is only an issue for those who disapprove of us and/or want to discriminate against Gays.

Funny, so often it seems as though the ones making an issue out of it are gay people......

dubone: well stated, though it is not surprising that you were conveniently misinterpreted or taken out of context. Seems to be one of the overlying themes on this thread....

[dimebag1980]

dubone: well stated, though it is not surprising that you were conveniently misinterpreted or taken out of context. Seems to be one of the overlying themes on this thread....

That's why I've thought, since the beginning, that this thread really shouldn't have even started. It's issues like this where you need a forum dedicated to politics, because while homosexuality isn't a political stance, it often turns into a heated, political-type discussion.

[monsoon]

Funny, so often it seems as though the ones making an issue out of it are gay people......

The person that started this thread is not Gay I believe. You post is slanderous towards Gays in general and another sign that you are a bigot. And I will point out that you have responded here as much as anyone else so you are obviously making an issue out of this topic.

That's why I've thought, since the beginning, that this thread really shouldn't have even started. It's issues like this where you need a forum dedicated to politics, because while homosexuality isn't a political stance, it often turns into a heated, political-type discussion.

This is the UrbanPlanet Coffeehouse and most threads like this are fair game as long as people behave. Some here seem to have real issues with Gays and feel they must put this forward for others to see.

The bottom line is nobody on this forum is forced to participate in this thread.

[dpbaker]

The person that started this thread is not Gay I believe. You post is slanderous towards Gays in general and another sign that you are a bigot. And I will point out that you have responded here as much as anyone else so you are obviously making an issue out of this topic.

Wrong. I'm not making an issue out of this at all. It all started by responding to the original post. Then it ended up being an attempt to rationalize with you mostly, defending my ideas, and keeping up with your persistence at twisting my words and misrepresenting what I say. And I will continue to challenge you as long as you insist on holding your narrow views. You find my posts slanderous towards gays? I find your posts routinely slanderous towards anybody that doesn't agree with you, or might hold a different viewpoint. A bigot I am not, but believe what you will. You are clearly convinced.