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Skyscrapergeek

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Who cares what others think? This feeds more and more the inferiority complex. Why can't we have big buildings like Atlanta, or whoever else has a lot of high-rise development?

I understand we're never going to be Charleston/ Savannah/ any European city, but I'm talking how they develop their cities (even today) and not at recreating history. To say we're comparing apples to oranges goes the same to your argument, (generalization coming), I want to be considered on the same level as Chicago/ NYC. Sorry, but that will never happen.

Why can't we learn from the cities that value pedestrian scaled development to high rises? Create great neighborhoods where we can live/ work/ play and who cares what others think. I find it interesting that cities, such as have been mentioned, continue to build along the lines of midrise-lowrise even with the technological advance of elevators. Only one city has seemed to get the high-rise correct, Vancouver, with its strict codes. Take a look at the Viridian next time you're downtown and note the side next to L&C. Those units are going to eternally be in a light-less canyon, definitely not enjoying the 'views' that this type of development had hoped for.

A lot of the presumption that Nashville is podunk falls on the fact that it's in the south, and worst off, it's in Tennessee. We know Nashville is/ could be a great city far beyond what one building is going to show. It's already evident in the fact corporate relocation(albeit primarily suburban) chooses here and the growth and tourism we are seeing. If someone wants to think we're hicks with nothing to offer, let them, there's not much you can do about ignorance.

One question that keeps coming back, (and I must be in the wrong place to get an answer) what are benefits that high-rises provide over others? So far, all I'm hearing is economic prowess, growth, and because their cool. You know, some sections of our society like to have a Cleveland steamer now and again, but does that make it right for the rest of us? (enough sense of humor for you?)

I've got to reference Newtowners statement in another thread-this seems to be a skyscraper fan club of sorts. Maybe I'm in the wrong place as I see value in other development types and I don't want to seem to be pissing in your cheerios(not an attack on Cheeriokid, I mean no harm and won't urinate on you) and was looking for a dialogue on the urban environment.

the main reason that signature is being built is not because atlanta has tall buildings. it is being built to stop sprawl. signature tower is a great way for nashville to advertise "hey everybody, you can live downtown." this is something that is a lot more visible than having a villiage downtown. when's the last time that germantown was talked about this much because of urban development?

signature will also be pedestrian scaled. it has plans for street level shops and another possible grocery store. just because it has an extra 45 floors doesn't mean it's not pedestrian friendly. i don't really understand why people who claim to be for a pedestrian friendly city are against skyscrapers. especially ones that actually bring more pedestrians downtown. you can fit more people into one block in a high rise than you ever could in a low or mid rise. if you want density, this will do it.

and i'm not saying i wouldn't like to see some low to mid-rise neighborhoods. i think those would be great. but in able to have nashville get the mentality of "hey, lets go live downtown", i think something needs to be done to actually convince them that you can really live downtown. lofts and low rises simply don't have the effect that a tall and shiny sky scraper does.

amd that humor thing was totally taken out of context. while clevland steamers are funny, unless you're on the recieving end (i could only imagine), it has nothing to do with this thread. the signature tower is not a giant dump on someone's chest. it's a beneficial residential highrise that will bring a lot to nashville as a whole. it will bring more people to live downtown, it will bring more pedestrian friendly stores and shops due to more pedestrians, bring more businesses downtown and it will be a sense of pride for nashville. what so wrong about being proud of a tower? nothing that i can see.

do we like skyscrapers in this forum? yes. but don't just read the forums about the skyscrapers. read all the other forums about the midrise development in the gulch. look at the threads about the sobro area. there are more of these threads than there are of tall towers.

now tell me why you are so against a tower that is going to do so many good things for this city.

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I really don't understand why, on a website about urban development, so many people seem to have something against skyscrapers. :wacko: Of course most of us like skyscrapers... whats wrong with that? It's definitely not the only thing talked about on this forum, though. You don't see people trying to get the Sounds to build their baseball stadium on top of a 50 story building, or build the new convention center in a vertical format that only takes up a block of the city. I feel like there is plenty of good discussion about pedestrian aspects of the city... and being fairy new here, I especially like the mentions of things to do and places to eat every now and then lol :thumbsup:

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now tell me why you are so against a tower that is going to do so many good things for this city.

If high rise development is such a desired form of living, list 5 examples of neighborhoods/ communities that employ this as the main building type. (and don

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If high rise development is such a desired form of living, list 5 examples of neighborhoods/ communities that employ this as the main building type.

My point, and many others, is to question the skyscraper as a viable residential building type. What do these offer other than a beacon of progress? Yes, they offer density, but so would 5 mid-rise buildings in SoBro, creating a far richer urban fabric.

I apologize for having higher expectations for a truly rich urban environment. High-rise developments don

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The thing is, nobody is saying your idea of urban development is a bad thing. However, unless I'm misunderstanding your position, you seem to be saying that there is never a good reason to build tall residential. Is it necessary to say that this is a free country and if someone else prefers to live in a high-rise and someone wants to build one for them to live in, then it really doesn't matter what fabric it creates? Why is it so surprising that there would be tall buildings in a "downtown"? There is plenty of room in Sobro to meet your expectations but that doesn't mean someone with different ideas and expectations can't do the opposite...well unless it's in Sobro where tall has been outlawed.

You yourself used the word diversity. I'm all for diversity and a good mixture of all types of development in our great city. I bet if you ask Tony he will say that he appreciates all types of development as well but has a certain passion for high-rises and what's wrong with that? The free market doesn't exist primarily for the "greater good". It exists for the risk taker and if Tony G. hadn't come along, I guarantee you the idea of many people living anywhere close to downtown would still be a dream. I for one am thankful for rich people. How many broke people build anything? Besides, I've seen plenty of mid/low-rise neighborhoods that you would have to be "rich" to live in and most of Sobro will be just that.

I think it is great that you strongly believe in mid/low-rise development and would greatly enjoy hearing your ideas about them but I reject the notion that those who appreciate high-rise development are somehow ignorant to a more enlightened way of living. I honestly mean no offense but I will "get off the sofa"(as my great uncle says) about this issue. :D

i couldn't have said it any better.

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How would you like to live on the top floor of Sig Tower? Some people would love it (like me). Some people would hate it, so they should not move there.

But if you don't like it, you don't have the right to tell me/Tony G./others that you want a 4 story limit on residential bldgs. That's like me telling you to not wear orange shirts because I don't like the color orange.

I have family living in a 18 story mid-rise and friends that live in surburban houses that don't even know their neighbors. So my point is that social interaction is a choice and no development short or tall will accomplish this. People will interact by choice only - regardless of where they live.

Post #100 for me! Cheers!!

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Reading this thread reminds me of the Encore debate and can not resist jumping in.

I agree everyone should have a choice of where they prefer to live, Farm, Martini Farm, McMansion, single-family residence on a cul-da-sac, townhouse, apartments,TND, single-family residence in a historic neighborhood, mid-rise, high-rise and skyscrapers just to name a few of their choices. It is a free country.

Do I have a right to try and convince someone what I believe is a mistake for the future of our City and/or Country? Do I have a right to not like it? Of course, I do as well as anyone else.

The debate over high-rise/skyscraper vs. mid-rise/low-rise has everything to do with the expectations for the future of the City and urban environment. It is not that I hate skyscrapers, but what I believe we are giving up to build them.

In many ways, my view is very selfish, just as someone who live in a McMansion might think of me since I do not think their building typology is a good idea for my vision for what the City should look like, those that favor skyscrapers think how could you tell me this is a bad idea it is a free country. I do not believe in clear cutting lots or building on steep slopes, but so many people tell me it is a free country and they can do it to their hearts delight. My job as a citizen is to try maybe in vain to convince them otherwise.

So, what are we giving up? We are giving up the vision of creating a lively mixed-use neighborhood for one. By putting all our eggs in a few baskets, we end up with a few big projects in parking lots, but give up the meaningful urban fabric where we can walk for blocks and blocks and enjoy the urban landscape. I am surprised that so many believe that there is an endless demand and we can build skyscrapers and high-rises all day long. I think it is a little like the dotcom bubble. We are so used to seeing project after project announced so we think it will continue at this break neck pace.

In addition, mid-rise/low-rise increases the potential for commercial space along the edges which makes it even more interesting and lucrative for the City. There is an argument that in order for LRT to be viable then the density can not be put into a single location, but should be strung out along the line. I believe it is an average of 13/15 units per acre.

If there are examples of great high-rise neighborhoods please bring them to the table. The Vancouver example during the Encore made me pause and really consider my position because it is considered a great mixed-use neighborhood, but after studying it and I hope to study it in person this summer, I have concluded that they built it because they had to, they have limited the floor plates, and they have limited the distances between towers in order to not impede views and increase light to the buildings and street.

Can anyone give any other examples?

I just want everyone to realize what they are giving up for the view from the tower to the tower.

Though I have to say even if we did have endless demand I still prefer the mid-rise/low-rise model. I have just seen it work in so many places and it seems it is always the building typology that makes up the great neighborhoods around the world.

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you make a great post bzorch. i agree that it would be awesome to have mid-rise/low-level housing. i'm not wanting high rises everywhere. i believe that signature will help people realize that you can live downtown, and not just in a high rise. once people's interest gets peaked about living downtown, they are going to start looking all over downtown for places to live. signature will shake that mentality that nashville has of living in the suburbs because there is no place to live and shop downtown. i don't see nashville building a lot of residential high rises. notice that the majority of residential building that is taking place is 20 stories or lower. it will take some time, but i do see nashville expanding it's low to mid-rise living areas. just look at the gulch and so-bro. people are focusing on what the central business district is doing instead of looking at the areas where it really is livable.

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For me, I'm a believer in the free market system. There is a demand for all various types of housing, from single family dwellings on spacious lots or small lots, to planned communites, to small low rise multifamilty units, to mid-rise condos, and even skyscraper condos and apartments complexes. I think developers will always provide the type of housing that they can sell. When it is proven that a certain style of housing sells well in a given area, other developers will rush in to deliver the type of housing that the market demands. In certain areas of the city that type of housing may differ dramatically, and the economics of land costs may influence what type of development a developer can build. On Church St, just about any new construction will be skyscraper type. The exorbitant land costs there will dictate that. If the Sig Tower sells like hotcakes as I think it will (or already has), then there most probably will be other skyscraper housing projects to follow. Who would deny the public this if that is indeed what they want? I certainly wouldn't.

By the same token, if the midrise projects slated to be built in Rolling Mill Hill and SoBro near the stadium are sucessful in sales, many more will follow there as well. Neighborhoods will form and many people will get exposure to that lifestyle in Nashville, breeding demand for more of this style housing. But what if, this doesn't work well in Nashville? Are we to continue to demand only this style development or else? I say no. Let's build what the public wants. I have tremendous confidence that the general public is smart enough to know what is not only best for them and what is best for Nashville if given the full gamut of choices to choose from. In the long run, the real quality developments will be the one to succeed and will be the driving force in the marketplace. So let's let the marketplace be the deciding factor on what get built where in Nashville.

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For me, I'm a believer in the free market system.

Ah yes, the free-market system, how could I have thought negatively on all the great things it has brought us in the past 50 years. Typical suburbia, Walmart, Cool Springs, the blight of {insert any name} Pike. The interesting thing about most Americans is if there

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Right on, brother man, er, Hankster. It kills me as I keep reading these posts that go, "How come all ya'll talk about is skyscrapers?" "I thought this was urban planet, not skyscraper planet?" Hello, we're talking about all the developments that are going on and being announced wether they be two stories (I seem to remember Dave starting a thread about the two story condos going up around the capitol mall area) or 55 stories. Go back through all the posts and I bet you can find a specific thread for just about every new development announced. Let's keep in mind what city we're living in. Outside of a few isolated pockets, there is no urban environment to speak of. Everything is being built from the ground up and we can only hope that the trend towards urban living stays strong and grows even more. It's going to take time, perhaps decades before we're able to enjoy a cohesive, large area of densely packed neighborhoods. That's why you'll see people get excited for all these developments, even if they're 60 story isolation towers, because Nashville's urban future is just getting under way.

I'm not trying to dampen any discussion or criticism. We need people with enlightened opinions to temper our enthusiasm with a little bit of caution and knowledge.

Having never lived in a skyscraper, I can't say what kind of community vibe they impart. I have lived in two story apartment complexes and ten story dormitories and suburbs with acre lots and half acre lots and in my experience, community is what you make of it, what effort you're willing to put in to meet people and be friendly, etc. I don't think it much matters what kind of development you're in. I've been in this apartment for almost two years and don't know anybodies names. :(

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I would like to know what objective basis there is for the belief that a skyscraper does not make a good addition to the urban fabric. If you're basing your argument on view, how is a dense neighborhood of row houses, town homes, or even single family homes better than a series of tightly packed skyscrapers? The view would still be your neighbors window or the street or alley outside but from a much lower perspective.

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I live in Inglewood, single family home, decent lot and know all my neighbors. Maybe if I lived in Brentwood, I wouldn't.

I've lived in NYC, on E. 35th, one block from Herald Sq. at Macy's. It was mostly mid-rise (6-12 floors) structures just chocked full of strangers. Sure, I saw some of the same people as we descended to the subway every morning, or on the streets in the afternoon at restaurants, shops, the cleaners, or whatever. Did I know anybody, no, sadly, I didn't.

A neighborhood is not created by building style or urban configuration, it's created by the openess, tolerance, friendliness, and straightforward neighborliness whether you're in a high-rise, low-rise, or living in a ditch. I've never met a stranger in my life, but living in such a tight, urban environment as I did in NYC, in a neighborhood that's so often described here as the perfect urban existence, I never felt so isolated. I trust that the general personalities of the people in this city will take care of this potential problem. This is Nashville...howdy, everybody. I have no doubt that however this city grows in the core, there'll be friends and acquaintances very close by.

Villain and Hank, I understand why I like you.

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I live in Inglewood, single family home, decent lot and know all my neighbors. Maybe if I lived in Brentwood, I wouldn't.

And I would argue your current built environment contributes to your social interaction. I've deliberately left off the mid-rise from my post because of the variety of ways they can fall. They can be border line low-rise, or border line high-rise. The number of units contributes to the socialness of a development. I lived on 2nd for two years in a 32 unit loft. Did I know everyone? no, but most yes. Probably more because we all drank, but we were social. Maybe we need Fri. nite meets and can then help each other with the buckets on the official Sat. morning get togethers. My point is, the environment in which we live is a tool that contributes to community.

Is that possible in this day and age or does everyone prefer to come home, close the blinds and veg out?

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Actually, the two greatest things that make a row of houses turn into a neighborhood are a yard and kids. Now I'm not saying you have to have kids of your own (just tolerate them when they cross over into your yard and occasionally throw a ball or chase after each other). BTW: They also make tons of noise ... LOL

What I'm saying is that kids are great for pulling neighbors out of their houses. A yard of course gives them the area to do it in. Trust me, if we didn't have three young'uns ourselves, we'd probably be the couple that came home only late at nights and slept/or went out of town on weekends. We'd never ever know our neighbors.

Now, regarding downtown and midtown... I'd guess that a vast majority of those folks will not have kids (in any significant number). So, I'd guess under the circumstances, the next best place to meet people will be at ye-olde watering hole. So hopefully there will be plenty of them around these new condos (midrise and highrise).

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I thought maybe some diagrams could help all of us understand the implications of height, so I downloaded the trial version of SketchUp and put together some quick models of a prototypical block structure (300ft blocks). It is a very easy and fun tool. I know the architecture sucks, but try and look past that. Each layer represents a floor and the shadows are based on today at 3:30pm.

highrise

SOBRO_HIRISE1.jpg

SOBRO_HIRISE2.jpg

SOBRO_HIRISE3.jpg

midrise

SOBRO_MID3.jpg

SOBRO_MID2.jpg

SOBRO_MID1.jpg

I think the most striking thing about these images besides the difference in the pedestrian scale is the light on the street and in the buildings.

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I've been in this apartment for almost two years and don't know anybodies names. :(

Sucks doesn't it? I have the same problem... but only been here 9 months.

I agree that the type of development you live in doesn't really matter so much. It's more about the people who live there and the community activities, etc. I know my parents, who live in suburbia, wouldn't know their neighbors if it weren't for things going on... reasons for them to get out of the house lol. I think it would be possible for this to even be achieved in a skyscraper, given the right people living in it at least.

I'd also add dogs into ATLBrain's comment... they can provide the same effect as kids sometimes.

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Wow, what a sad commentary on our society. Unfortunately, IJDave is right that architecture is not going to force people to be friendly to one another. I also think a key factor is kids. Kids have a way of bring parents together who would not otherwise have met each other or broken the ice to get know one another.

I am in the Belmont-Hillsboro area and even though it may have similarities to East Nashville. From what I can tell from others who live there, East Nashville is much tighter knit than this neighborhood. I think the difference include the various events and meetings the neighborhood has that increase the opportunities to meet one another. I also think there is a little bit of a pioneer mentality where everyone feels they are changing the area for the better and that they are a part of it.

So yes, the social success of an area does not solely depend on architecture and urban design, but it can affect it negatively or positively. As a professor use to say, he could design a home that could guarantee a divorce, but could not guarantee everlasting love.

With the advent of entertainment choices in our home, central heating and air, and growing distrust of our fellow man the situation seems to only get worse. It is interesting how the internet is changing our social networks and communication within them. Of course, UP is a great example. Maybe UP is the problem?

So should we give up? Are there development arrangements and typologies that can make the situation worse? In addition, if we never decided to talk to our neighbor there are other factors that need to be considered (i.e. quality of the environment, light, scale, economics).

I would have to say if you are going to have high density development that public space is critical to the success of a neighborhood. It acts as the front yard for the residents and promotes interaction. I also think cafes and other social type establishments make a big difference. Churches also seem to be a place where people feel more comfortable interacting with each other. The street/sidewalk is also an important public space element.

In addition, there is a

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I would like to know what objective basis there is for the belief that a skyscraper does not make a good addition to the urban fabric. If you're basing your argument on view, how is a dense neighborhood of row houses, town homes, or even single family homes better than a series of tightly packed skyscrapers? The view would still be your neighbors window or the street or alley outside but from a much lower perspective.

I'm kind of confused on where you're headed with this on, but I'll give it a shot. I'm not saying you get views with low-rise, but you can argue some mid-rise will. These do offer a more varied, hospitable street life that is beneficial to the city as a whole. As Bzorch said, wouldn't it be nice to have blocks and blocks of architecture/ city life to peruse and enjoy? (1) 500 unit bldg=(10) 50 unit bldgs=(16) 30+ unit buildings. I'll take the latter two. If we filled up the inner loop, doing it more quickly with mid-rise/ low-rise, suddenly transit becomes an option.

IMO the only thing a high-rise offers is a view. Now, if you were to live in the Viridian on the side facing L&C that have no views and virtually no light, would you still choose the high rise in that type of scenario?

As a city, we haven't thought through the restrictions needed for high-rise residential, if it's a model people want.

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Maybe they don't successfully exist because they haven't been given a good shot? I really don't know for sure... because I haven't studied every city in the US to see what types of neighborhoods they have. But... what if Nashville could be the great example of a highrise neighborhood working? Given the people who live in the area... i'd say it's possible.

Another thing that I think hasn't really been considered here is the fact that without skyscrapers... where would these urban neighborhoods really be created? I think part of the reason some of these areas such as the Gulch and SoBro are so sought after right now is because they can offer great views of the skyscrapers and downtown skyline. If Nashville was nothing but low/mid rise buildings... there wouldn't be as much of a reason for all this development so close to downtown. People could develop on much cheaper land out in Brentwood or some place... and get the same effect.

Great point. My whole argument is that it's not a mutually exclusive relationship. We're not talking about one or the other here in Nashville. We're seeing examples of each type of building being built all at the same time. With time, the best developments will prove to be successful. SoBro has its height restriction. It will be, if demand continues, Nashville's inner city mid rise boro. Downtown, and to a lesser extent, the Gulch, will be highrise, midrise mix. I think there will be demand for all varieties. Economic factors, availability and exclusivity will play a role in which building type people choose.

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Great point. My whole argument is that it's not a mutually exclusive relationship. We're not talking about one or the other here in Nashville. We're seeing examples of each type of building being built all at the same time. With time, the best developments will prove to be successful. SoBro has its height restriction. It will be, if demand continues, Nashville's inner city mid rise boro. Downtown, and to a lesser extent, the Gulch, will be highrise, midrise mix. I think there will be demand for all varieties. Economic factors, availability and exclusivity will play a role in which building type people choose.

The great thing is...they will get to choose. :D

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