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T.F. Green Airport Developments


Frankie811

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While I hate to see AA end its jet service to Providence, the average consumer is not going to notice whether the ground crew is wearing AA or A Eagle on their lapels. When they book their tickets online, it will say AA with a small aterisk few bother to read. The flying public's rude awakening will come when they get on the plane - but even then with the new regional jets and American's regional jet gangways at O'Hare there shouldn't be a huge difference. Again, in the airtravel economy of teh future there is going to be little difference for the consumer between flying AA or A Eagle, Delta or Delta Connection, Northwest or Northwest Airlink. From a strictly technical point of view AA may be leaving Green, but AMR is not and consumers will see very little difference until they are on the plane (except for first class passengers). What this does mean is higher ticket prices for AMR on limited seats and better margins with the regional jets - and a boon for United and Southwest on point-to-point service to Chicago.

correct ther will be no first class on these flights. And the flying public will be greatly reduced on the rj's because of the higher fares from PVD. So we have seen AA go from 40,000 plus a month with as many as 8 mad dogs (I really like that analogy) to 3 50 seat rj's that will carry 4000-5000 a month. The conclusion is if you want AA go to Logan to help us pay for our billion dollar terminal and to help Massport pay for their heavy overhead. DL is not too far behind in considering all rj service to PVD for many of the same reasons. Many pax will choose not to fly rj jets when mainliners are only 50 miles away.

Mark

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correct ther will be no first class on these flights. And the flying public will be greatly reduced on the rj's because of the higher fares from PVD. So we have seen AA go from 40,000 plus a month with as many as 8 mad dogs (I really like that analogy) to 3 50 seat rj's that will carry 4000-5000 a month. The conclusion is if you want AA go to Logan to help us pay for our billion dollar terminal and to help Massport pay for their heavy overhead. DL is not too far behind in considering all rj service to PVD for many of the same reasons. Many pax will choose not to fly rj jets when mainliners are only 50 miles away.

Mark

I agree that the general public would probably prefer a mainline flight but I far prefer the regional jets on 1 to 2 hour flights. Getting on and off is a breeze when you're only dealing with 40 to 50 passengers and most carry on luggage is checked and unloaded planeside. I never have to worry about checking bags or finding room in overheads. I know I can just check it before climbing the stairs and grab it again when I come off - right by the plane. The ride itself is just as smooth as a mainline flight - these aren't the puddle jumpers some travelers may think they are. The only thing that would get me to drive to Boston would be a drastic price difference. Even $100 more for a roundtrip from PVD is worth not having to drive to and park at Logan. 50 miles isn't that much, but itsure sucks when you're catching a 7AM flight or forced to leave hours earlier than needed to account for rush hour traffic.

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While I hate to see AA end its jet service to Providence, the average consumer is not going to notice whether the ground crew is wearing AA or A Eagle on their lapels. When they book their tickets online, it will say AA with a small aterisk few bother to read. The flying public's rude awakening will come when they get on the plane - but even then with the new regional jets and American's regional jet gangways at O'Hare there shouldn't be a huge difference. Again, in the airtravel economy of teh future there is going to be little difference for the consumer between flying AA or A Eagle, Delta or Delta Connection, Northwest or Northwest Airlink. From a strictly technical point of view AA may be leaving Green, but AMR is not and consumers will see very little difference until they are on the plane (except for first class passengers). What this does mean is higher ticket prices for AMR on limited seats and better margins with the regional jets - and a boon for United and Southwest on point-to-point service to Chicago.

I mainly took up issue with the statement you made about all that AA was doing was simply dropping PVD-DFW since that's obviously not the case. That aside, I worked at the Eagle Providence station for 3 years from '00-'03 and I know all about the similarities and differences between the 2. I think you are minimizing the departure of American and the shift to Eagle. This is not going to be as easy of a transition as we would like. With no premium cabins, there's very little incentive for AAdvantage members to bother. The loss of the DFW flight (which comes 12 months after rumors about a second daily DFW or the start of the long awaited MIA flight were rampant) is detrimental. I took that flight a few times to DFW and SAT when I had AA benefits and it was hugely successful and so convenient. A problem that plagues (mainly) regional airlines is weight restrictions. I worked in ROC for 4 months in the winter of '03 right after AA sailed away and switched to Eagle and we frequently had to limit pax counts on the E145s to the mid 40's when the winds aloft picked up. And Rochester is a good 350 miles closer to Chicago than Providence is, with (ta-da!) longer runways, too. It's not such a big deal when you have 5 or 6 flights a day but when you tell someone "we can't accomodate you because our jets aren't big enough today" and do it over and over throughout the day for several days straight that starts to annoy people. With only 3 daily frequencies you'll end up screwing up peoples travel plans pretty badly, unless you want to accomodate them on someone else - someone like United who is almost certainly prepared to upgrade/increase the Providence schedule with American's dismissal. How long do you think it takes for those re-routed passengers to make a permanent shift to someone's elses business? As far as consumers seeing very little difference until they are on the plane, what else is there other than the airport itself that epitomizes the travel experience? That's all that's left is the airline. The dispatch reliability of the Embraers suck. And the cultures between the two are very different. Any leftover AA passenger will be forced to walk outside and up a set of stairs to board a plane anyone over 5'10'' will have to duck their heads to get into, and passengers over 6'0" will pray, bargain or attempt any other means of influence to get the exit row for the 2 1/2 hour flight. I know, i've been that guy.

As far as the staff is PVD staff is concerned, it's been thrown about that Eagle was bringing back it's employees to handle the flights. Thanks for the clarification Mental, because I honestly wasn't sure if that was true or not. I, for one, would never entertain the thought of returning. Not for 3 fpd.

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I mainly took up issue with the statement you made about all that AA was doing was simply dropping PVD-DFW since that's obviously not the case. That aside, I worked at the Eagle Providence station for 3 years from '00-'03 and I know all about the similarities and differences between the 2. I think you are minimizing the departure of American and the shift to Eagle. This is not going to be as easy of a transition as we would like. With no premium cabins, there's very little incentive for AAdvantage members to bother. The loss of the DFW flight (which comes 12 months after rumors about a second daily DFW or the start of the long awaited MIA flight were rampant) is detrimental. I took that flight a few times to DFW and SAT when I had AA benefits and it was hugely successful and so convenient. A problem that plagues (mainly) regional airlines is weight restrictions. I worked in ROC for 4 months in the winter of '03 right after AA sailed away and switched to Eagle and we frequently had to limit pax counts on the E145s to the mid 40's when the winds aloft picked up. And Rochester is a good 350 miles closer to Chicago than Providence is, with (ta-da!) longer runways, too. It's not such a big deal when you have 5 or 6 flights a day but when you tell someone "we can't accomodate you because our jets aren't big enough today" and do it over and over throughout the day for several days straight that starts to annoy people. With only 3 daily frequencies you'll end up screwing up peoples travel plans pretty badly, unless you want to accomodate them on someone else - someone like United who is almost certainly prepared to upgrade/increase the Providence schedule with American's dismissal. How long do you think it takes for those re-routed passengers to make a permanent shift to someone's elses business? As far as consumers seeing very little difference until they are on the plane, what else is there other than the airport itself that epitomizes the travel experience? That's all that's left is the airline. The dispatch reliability of the Embraers suck. And the cultures between the two are very different. Any leftover AA passenger will be forced to walk outside and up a set of stairs to board a plane anyone over 5'10'' will have to duck their heads to get into, and passengers over 6'0" will pray, bargain or attempt any other means of influence to get the exit row for the 2 1/2 hour flight. I know, i've been that guy.

As far as the staff is PVD staff is concerned, it's been thrown about that Eagle was bringing back it's employees to handle the flights. Thanks for the clarification Mental, because I honestly wasn't sure if that was true or not. I, for one, would never entertain the thought of returning. Not for 3 fpd.

I've obviously hit upon a personal issue for you, and I appreciate your input. However, I'm thinking about this from the standpoint of the airport and the consumer - not the employee. If I don't like Eagle, I can still fly a handful of other airlines. The fact remains PVD is going to continue to grow - with or without AA mainline flights. So you make a good business case as for why consumers might shift to another airline, and I agree, but in the grand scheme of things this isn't the end of the world for Green.

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I've obviously hit upon a personal issue for you, and I appreciate your input. However, I'm thinking about this from the standpoint of the airport and the consumer - not the employee. If I don't like Eagle, I can still fly a handful of other airlines. The fact remains PVD is going to continue to grow - with or without AA mainline flights. So you make a good business case as for why consumers might shift to another airline, and I agree, but in the grand scheme of things this isn't the end of the world for Green.

No, not at all. Sorry I didn't mean to come across as if it was a personal sting or anything. I was just shining some inside knowledge on the situation from a slightly different perspective.

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Eagle will be using 44 seat ERJ-140 jets on our 3 Ohare flights. They have already modified gate 14 so that the flights will board via jetbridge (no ramp exposure). UA is going with a status quo approach for now and has shown no signs of adding anything significant at PVD (which is surprising). I can see Southwest addiing a 5th Midway flight if this continues to be the case...

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Eagle will be using 44 seat ERJ-140 jets on our 3 Ohare flights. They have already modified gate 14 so that the flights will board via jetbridge (no ramp exposure). UA is going with a status quo approach for now and has shown no signs of adding anything significant at PVD (which is surprising). I can see Southwest addiing a 5th Midway flight if this continues to be the case...

Well, United has changed its summer schedule I believe.

Right now for PVD-ORD we have a 319, 735, 733, CR7, and a 319. I just checked for July, and we're supposed to have a 752, 320, 319, CR7, and 319. I checked this awhile ago, and I think this is a bigger upgrade than originally expected (I think before the first flight would be 320). So, UAL might not have more flights, but it appears that the summer upgrade is larger than originally planned.

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Layman's terms please????

Guys I think we have to remember that we're aviation nerds in a forum comprised of mostly architectural nerds.

Aircraft types serving PVD airport

Airbus

310 = A310-300 is utilized by SATA and is used on our summer overseas flights to the Azores. A unique combination of power, size and modest length. The Airbus family is distiguished by its tall landing gear, wide-in-diameter engines and wingtip "fences," where at the wing tips of the aircraft are vertical extentions in an up and down direction improving aircraft performance. All modern Airbii possess wingtip fences and is the most prominent feature of the family.

319 = A319 utilized by USAirways, United, Northwest and Spirit airlines. Smallest of Airbus aircraft, it has only 1 overwing exit per side of the aircraft.

320 = A320 is utilized by USAirways, United and Northwest. A longer version of the 319 this aircraft has 2 overwing exits per side as opposed to the 319 which has only 1.

321 = A321 is utilized by USAirways. This is the longest of the Airbus aircraft that is scheduled into PVD. Easily distinguished from the previous two because of the 2 forward passenger loading doors, ahead of the wing.

Boeing

727 = Boeing 727-200 mostly utilized by Cargo airlines DHL, FedEx and by UPS during the high season to compliment the 757. The only aircraft seen at PVD with 3 engines, all located in the rear.

737 = Boeing 737-200, 300, 400, 500. -200s are seen in Delta Airlines colors and Ryan charter flights serving Connecticut and Atlantic City gambling charters. -300 are utilized by USAirways, Continental, United, and Southwest Airlines. -400 are utilized by USAirways are also the lengthiest in this category of 73's. -500s are utilized by Continental as well. They are about the same length as the -200s, however have bigger more powerful engines.

737G = Boeing 737-700, 800. -700's are utilized by Southwest Airlines. This is probably the most recognizable 737 at PVD because nearly all of Southwest's -700s are equipped with 8 ft high 'winglets' which turn upward the wing tips of the aircraft's wing. -800s are seasonal aircraft utilized by Continental. Many of CO's -800s also have winglets. This aircraft is about the same in dimensions as the -400s, however more technologically advanced.

757 = 757-200 is the largest aircraft that is regularly scheduled at PVD. No fair way to compare it to anything else at Providence because it's a beast in person. Served up by USAirways and UPS. Seasonal service on United. Similar in length to the A321 however the 75 has a double-truck landing gear configuration whereas the 321 has a single-truck.

767 = 767-300 is the largest aircraft to frequent PVD on a regular basis. In Delta's heyday (a year or 2 ago) this aircraft would supplement some of the high summer loads. It is also seen nearly weekly during football season as many teams charter 767s because of its high weight allowance, big interior space and versatile cargo capabilities, as well as its short-field runway performance, which as we all know is PVD's main setback. The Patriots charter a Delta 767-300.

McDonnell Douglas

DC9 = DC-9-30 utilized on occasion by DHL freight. This is an old lady who takes the cake as far as noise and soot output is concerned. With roots dating back to the early 1960's, the "Diesel-9" has a 2-engine, tail-mounted configuration and moderately swept wing. One of the few aircraft at PVD with the "T-Tail" look where the vertical tail actually looks like a capital "T" when viewed from the front and back.

MD80 = DC-9-80 or Super 80 was just taken out of rotation by American Airlines when they closed up operations over the weekend. Hence, if you saw American you knew you were looking at a "Mad Dog." Delta is the remaining airline operating the MD80 and it is a lengthier variant of the other DC-9s with the same general appearance. This aircraft, although possessing seasoned genetics, is expected to last another 15 years with engine upgrades producing more thrust and quieter noise levels.

Regionals

402 = Cessna 402 utilized by Cape Air. This aircraft is piston-engine powered and seats 8 passengers on flights to Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. These little mosquitoes are seen buzzing all around PVD during the summer travel season and literally perpetuate the "puddle jumper" terminology.

B19 = Beech 1900D utilized by USAirways Express's Colgan Airlines subdivision and Air Canada's Air Ontario subdivision. This airplane has interesting visual features with winglets on the wings and "taillets?" on the elevators. On the elevators, they face downward, on the wings they face upwards. It is not much bigger than the 402, however has turbine-engine powered propellors as opposed to piston.

SF340 = Saab/Fairchild 340B utilized by USAirways Express's Colgan Airlines subdivision. A very basic design with straight, unswept wings and tail. This airplane is very rugged and robust. If you see a USAirways Express turboprop, it's probably a Saab.

E135/140/145 = Embraer Regional Jets are utilized by Continental Express in the 135 version, American Eagle in the 140 version and Continental Express, United Express and USAirways Express in the 145 version. 37, 40, and 50 seat variants, respectively, these aircraft are very sleek in their appearance due to their narrow cabin layouts and rear-mounted engines.

E170 = EMB-170 and is Embraer's attempt at deviating from the "RJ" vibe with 70 seat aircraft and wing-mounted engines. Utilized by USAirways Express's MidAtlantic Airlines and Republic Airlines subdivision. This one requires a sharp eye to distinguish from other aircraft due to it's Boeing-like winglets, and 737-like low profile, short-squatting landing gear. The 170 also has unique profile with it's unapologetically unique nose in that it is more or less a continuous sweep from the top of the fuselage to the nose cone.

CR2/CR7/CR9 = Canadair Regional Jet 200s are short and stubby 50 seaters equipped with winglets and tail mounted engines. -700s are longer versions of the 200s and seat 70 passengers. -900s are longer still and serve the 90-seat market. All CRJs have the same physical appearance, with fuselage plugs to increase the length. CR2's are utilized by USAirways Express's Air Wisconsin and PSA subdivisions and Delta's COMAIR division. CR7's are utilized by USAirways Express's Mesa Airlines subdivision and Delta's COMAIR division. CR9's are utilized by USAirways Express's Mesa Airlines subdivision.

Wow that took all morning! I'm gettin the shifty-eye from my boss. For more info go to the Yahoo PVD club

where a few of our members, myself included, migrated here from.

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Layman's terms please????

sorry, I was comparing the aircraft types used on United Airlines' 5 Chicago flights last summer versus this coming summer. The bigger the aircraft, the more available seats for sale, the more available seats, the more passengers that use the airport.

MikeyC obviously explained the aircraft types for us...

(good job Mikey)

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Wow that took all morning! I'm gettin the shifty-eye from my boss.

And they say productivity is up in today's workforce. HA!

I would be able to better understand it all without the airport codes. I've learned a lot of interesting stuff on UP... and for slacking on company time, it beats the hell out of myspace!

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  • 2 weeks later...

At the risk of sounding stupid, I'm confused as to why something like this couldn't simply be done.

airportplan.jpg

Extend the runways to what appears to have clearance (existing runways are this close to private property, as it is), run it over Airport Rd, like others here have suggested... the only possible problem that I haven't seen is extending runway 34 over the brook... I'm not sure if there is some kind of environmental concern over that.

Next, make a new terminal (blue) on the opposite side of the tarmac, have the proposed people mover (green) go underground, and connect the Sundlun Terminal to this new one (let's call it the Huck terminal ;)). I don't see how this calls for over a hundred homes being displaced, and I think the only concern at that point would be the additional noise the increased traffic will cause.

The extension of 5R, by my untrained eye, would be almost as long as the runways they have at Atlanta's airport.

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At the risk of sounding stupid, I'm confused as to why something like this couldn't simply be done.

airportplan.jpg

Extend the runways to what appears to have clearance (existing runways are this close to private property, as it is), run it over Airport Rd, like others here have suggested... the only possible problem that I haven't seen is extending runway 34 over the brook... I'm not sure if there is some kind of environmental concern over that.

Next, make a new terminal (blue) on the opposite side of the tarmac, have the proposed people mover (green) go underground, and connect the Sundlun Terminal to this new one (let's call it the Huck terminal ;)). I don't see how this calls for over a hundred homes being displaced, and I think the only concern at that point would be the additional noise the increased traffic will cause.

The extension of 5R, by my untrained eye, would be almost as long as the runways they have at Atlanta's airport.

1) 5R is now 5 5L/23R is now taxiway V

2) Yes, the extensions might still be on airport property, but all the approach lighting has to get moved, too. Just drive near the threshold of 5 and see how much space the CATIII approach lighting takes up. My estimation is that the lighting takes up at least 1,500 feet. Here's my estimate of the current location of the lighting based on your photo (though I believe my placement for the 5 lighting is pretty spot on). The lighting area is in yellow.

pvdrwys.jpg

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Just shows you how dumb the City of Wariwck can be...

http://www.projo.com/westbay/content/projo...ay.2c27700.html

My e-mail to them:

Dear Providence Journal Staff,

Regarding this story: http://www.projo.com/westbay/content/projo...ay.2c27700.html

Either the writer or the City of Warwick has made a large error. The 737-300 does indeed exist, but it is not new and there is no ER version. In addition, the 757-200 is not new either, and Boeing has recently stopped production of this aircraft. The city could possibly be referring to the new 737-900ER.

Warwick may be using these examples, however, because both the 733 and the 752 are now able to be upgraded with blended winglets for greater range and fuel efficiency. (This is why the Southwest aircraft can reach Vegas earlier, because their 737-700s have winglets.)

A simpe Google search could have confirmed all of this information. Perhaps the Journal and/or the City of Wariwck should be more clear or check their facts.

Thank you,

Daniel Webb

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