Traffic Enforcement Cameras

[brick]

All Cotuit's complaints prove is that you can't change people just through enforcement or fines. You can easily make things worse, but to make things better you actually need to give people a real reason to change their behavior. And increasing the fines to ridiculous levels may sound like an easy way to do that, but it's not.

Get the lights to work in such a way that they direct instead of impede traffic flow. That one statement alone is all I really need to say.

Some low hanging fruit. Thom feel free to pass along.

The other night I decided that instead of taking I-95 to Pawtucket I would just take a stroll through the city and I got off at the South Main Exit from 195. I approached College St. and the light was red. There were about 6 cars already waiting at the intersection. There was no cross traffic and no pedestrians. I waited another 90 seconds before the light turned green. Who knows how long the other people waited. OK, fine. Of course, as soon as the College St. light turned green, the Washington Pl light turned red. And then we sat there as nobody crossed the street for another minute, and just as we though we would get the light, it instead gave the bus lane the light even though there were no busses waiting to get in or out of the tunnel. OK fine, again. then, as soon as it turned green, there was a 5 second window where the Steeple St. light was green, and it turned red. And then we waiting not only for a full cycle of light, but for two pedestrians (RISD by the looks of what they were carrying) who were talking on the corner waited until the walk signal had already cleared, then finally broke their conversation right before the light turned green, and slowly dragged their asses across the street while they each chatted on their cell phones. In the time it took for them to cross the street, the light turned red again.

I've never been in a city that had one way streets, but still couldn't figure out how to align the lights to get traffic through them. The other side of the river (Memorial Blvd.) is just as bad. My guess is that people at one point thought that the best way to get drivers to slow down was to make them stop every 50 feet, but all it does is clog the streets.

There are probably 15 sets of lights like this at a minimum that are placed one on top of the other and that ahve no regard for getting people through them efficiently. And 15 is generous. Maybe 15 in each neighborhood.

Cotuit, I would guess that for every red light runner, there is a jaywalker, at least on a perceentage basis.

Frankly, I don't think anyone in Providences streets have any respect for anyone else on the road. Peds, drivers, cyclists, etc. and I think most of this is just due to the fact that there is no good way of getting around without breaking the law at least once every time you go through the city, because nothing is structured for traffic flow of any kind.

[Cotuit]

All Cotuit's complaints prove is that you can't change people just through enforcement or fines. You can easily make things worse, but to make things better you actually need to give people a real reason to change their behavior. And increasing the fines to ridiculous levels may sound like an easy way to do that, but it's not.

Get the lights to work in such a way that they direct instead of impede traffic flow. That one statement alone is all I really need to say.

Some low hanging fruit. Thom feel free to pass along.

The other night I decided that instead of taking I-95 to Pawtucket I would just take a stroll through the city and I got off at the South Main Exit from 195. I approached College St. and the light was red. There were about 6 cars already waiting at the intersection. There was no cross traffic and no pedestrians. I waited another 90 seconds before the light turned green. Who knows how long the other people waited. OK, fine. Of course, as soon as the College St. light turned green, the Washington Pl light turned red. And then we sat there as nobody crossed the street for another minute, and just as we though we would get the light, it instead gave the bus lane the light even though there were no busses waiting to get in or out of the tunnel. OK fine, again. then, as soon as it turned green, there was a 5 second window where the Steeple St. light was green, and it turned red. And then we waiting not only for a full cycle of light, but for two pedestrians (RISD by the looks of what they were carrying) who were talking on the corner waited until the walk signal had already cleared, then finally broke their conversation right before the light turned green, and slowly dragged their asses across the street while they each chatted on their cell phones. In the time it took for them to cross the street, the light turned red again.

I've never been in a city that had one way streets, but still couldn't figure out how to align the lights to get traffic through them. The other side of the river (Memorial Blvd.) is just as bad. My guess is that people at one point thought that the best way to get drivers to slow down was to make them stop every 50 feet, but all it does is clog the streets.

There are probably 15 sets of lights like this at a minimum that are placed one on top of the other and that ahve no regard for getting people through them efficiently. And 15 is generous. Maybe 15 in each neighborhood.

Cotuit, I would guess that for every red light runner, there is a jaywalker, at least on a perceentage basis.

Frankly, I don't think anyone in Providences streets have any respect for anyone else on the road. Peds, drivers, cyclists, etc. and I think most of this is just due to the fact that there is no good way of getting around without breaking the law at least once every time you go through the city, because nothing is structured for traffic flow of any kind.

Nice excuses, but the law is the law. You must stop at a red light.

[brick]

Nice excuses, but the law is the law. You must stop at a red light.

And you must cross in a cross walk and only when the light is green in your direction or you have a walk signal.

I can't believe you quoted my entire posts, addressed NONE of it, just to put this.

I mean come on. I know you're upset about the whole thing but digging trenches on any issue is just NIMBY of a different sort.

[Cotuit]

And you must cross in a cross walk and only when the light is green in your direction or you have a walk signal.

If all the pedestrians jumped off a bridge would all the motorists follow?

[pdxstreetcar]

A big problem is the lack of working crosswalk signals in the city.

[runawayjim]

A big problem is the lack of working crosswalk signals in the city.

halleluja!! finally someone else sees part of the problem!

however, the crosswalk signals do work by RISD, so those students that brick described were the problem, not the motorists or the crosswalk signals.

[Cotuit]

halleluja!! finally someone else sees part of the problem!

however, the crosswalk signals do work by RISD, so those students that brick described were the problem, not the motorists or the crosswalk signals.

No, regardless of what the RISD students may or may not have done, if the motorist runs the red it is no one's fault but the motorists. Someone elses bad behaviour is not an excuse for bad behaviour. People rob banks too, does that mean people should be alllowed to run red lights?

[runawayjim]

No, regardless of what the RISD students may or may not have done, if the motorist runs the red it is no one's fault but the motorists. Someone elses bad behaviour is not an excuse for bad behaviour. People rob banks too, does that mean people should be alllowed to run red lights?

maybe we should all have RFID tags on us so that jaywalkers can get nabbed for ILLEGALLY crossing the street when the sign says "DON'T WALK"

[Garris]

I was mad at the new cameras on Chalkstone this weekend. It's almost shoving the hypocrisy in your face that you have who knows how much money spent on these beautiful, gleaming new cameras at that intersection while the road surface itself there is like the surface of the moon. Really, really annoying...

Cotuit, I would guess that for every red light runner, there is a jaywalker, at least on a perceentage basis.

Probably far more jaywalkers, actually. For all of the hoopla, as a pedestrian and driver, I haven't seen that much red light running here. The biggest red light problem I've seen is people "blocking the box" during heavy volume periods, mostly due to the poorly coordinated lights.

Pedestrian-wise, forget the area around RISD as being bad with jaywalkers. Nothing beats the pedestrian intersection at Angell and Thayer at Brown, where masses of pedestrians will try to cross all over the place as "Do Not Walk" signs blaze and cars have a green light. I think pedestrians think that the street is sooo narrow, and there's enough of them so that if they go as a heard, drivers will be (and are) forced to stop, with usually one brave soul starting by walking out in the street in the middle of rush hour and just holding his/her hand up...

This behavior was so bad in NYC for a while that they had jaywalking barriers to prevent people from doing this.

But Cotuit's point is correct. Red lights or jaywalking, the law is the law.

- Garris

[brick]

But Cotuit's point is correct. Red lights or jaywalking, the law is the law.

The law is the law is a nice way to run a police state but unless we want to start violating people's cicil liberties at every turn, the law alone isn't enough.

For the record, I never stated that people should run red lights. I stated why they do. Just to make the point in terms of logic. Every decision is a cost/benefit analysis. OK, there are some psychological reasons also but for this point I'm not going to get into those.

Cost of running a red light = the price of breaking the law multiplied by some combination of the ability to enforce the law, the willingness to enforce the law, and the chances of getting caught.

Benefit of running a red light = get to your destination faster.

You can work really hard on changing the cost of running a red light, or you can make it really easy to not reward people for it. In NYC if I blow a red light at Madison and 31st I just get stopped at Madison and 32nd. I don't gain anything. In Providence if I blow through a red light there is a good chance I'll make the next two lights and gain that much more time.

However, changing the reward doesn't put any money into the city's coffers.

[Cotuit]

Cost of running a red light = the price of breaking the law multiplied by some combination of the ability to enforce the law, the willingness to enforce the law, and the chances of getting caught.

Cost of running a red light = Hit a pedestrian, or crossing traffic, kill someone, go to prison.

[eltron]

Cost of running a red light = Hit a pedestrian, or crossing traffic, kill someone, go to prison.

Exactly...

[runawayjim]

Cost of running a red light = Hit a pedestrian, or crossing traffic, kill someone, go to prison.

do you have statistics on the number of pedestrians hit by drivers running red lights or the number of accidents caused by people running red lights? how about the number of deaths related to running red lights?

i'd be willing to be there are better solutions to the problem than cameras... such as... freshly painted crosswalks and better lighting at intersections. people don't stop for something they don't see. people also run red lights for various reasons. many do it because they don't feel like waiting. others do it because the sun is so blinding (which happens to be the case at certain times of the day at eaton and huxley (where there is a red light camera). so basically, someone can get a ticket for driving through a light that they can't see.

and let's throw something else into the game.

cost of jaywalking = get hit by an oncoming vehicle, die.

however, the law makes the jaywalker (the one breaking the law) the victim because drivers are supposed to yield for people walking out into the middle of a busy street. personally, i don't care of a jaywalker gets hit and dies. they caused the accident themselves by illegally crossing a street. call me heartless, but in many cases, the law offers too much sympathy for people who knowingly break it. now, i do understand why the law is written this way (kids running into the street to catch their ball, not knowing the legality of jaywalking or what jaywalking even is), but it's still an issue.

oh yeah... i did a search on google "accidents related to running red lights". a number of the results were studies that showed how red light cameras caused more accidents and brought the city more revenue.

[eltron]

cost of jaywalking = get hit by an oncoming vehicle, die.

however, the law makes the jaywalker (the one breaking the law) the victim because drivers are supposed to yield for people walking out into the middle of a busy street. personally, i don't care of a jaywalker gets hit and dies. they caused the accident themselves by illegally crossing a street. call me heartless, but in many cases, the law offers too much sympathy for people who knowingly break it. now, i do understand why the law is written this way (kids running into the street to catch their ball, not knowing the legality of jaywalking or what jaywalking even is), but it's still an issue.

This is a really absurd argument....

Red light running is one of the sports of choice in this town. It is illegal, and it is dangerous. Jaywalking may be illegal, but walking is not inherently dangerous. Driving a 3000 pound car at 30 mph is.

In Massachusetts, its a $100 dollar fine for not stopping for pedestrians in crosswalks - its enforced, and its effective.

The people arguing against the cameras need to get out of their steel and glass death-missiles more often and onto their feet or their bicycle...they'll feel alot differently about it.

[Cotuit]

call me heartless

You're heartless.

many do it because they don't feel like waiting.

Red lights aren't there to bum you out or ruin your day. People don't feel like waiting? Are you serious with this? This is an excuse to run a red light?

I don't feel like paying for my groceries, can I just leave the store with them?

[runawayjim]

This is a really absurd argument....

Red light running is one of the sports of choice in this town. It is illegal, and it is dangerous. Jaywalking may be illegal, but walking is not inherently dangerous. Driving a 3000 pound car at 30 mph is.

In Massachusetts, its a $100 dollar fine for not stopping for pedestrians in crosswalks - its enforced, and its effective.

The people arguing against the cameras need to get out of their steel and glass death-missiles more often and onto their feet or their bicycle...they'll feel alot differently about it.

i walk to work on occasion. it's not a far walk, but it does involve crossing the street. the most major intersection i cross does not have crosswalk signals that work (they're there, they're just turned off).

i may drive a lot, it's easier. i actually enjoy driving. i stop for pedestrians in crosswalks (or even those not in them at times). i stop at red lights. i see lots of intersections. i still fail to see this rampant red light running that people claim goes on here.

if you wish to ban cars altogether, state that up front. otherwise, promoting big brother-ish methods of law enforcement is just as absurd as my argument.

again, i offer to you walkers... RFID tags inserted into every citizen. that way we can monitor those crossing the street and nab the jaywalkers even when no one is coming. because face it, you can still not see a car coming and get hit, just as when running a red light, you might not see oncoming traffic and get hit. the law says "cross only at crosswalks and in the case of crosswalk signals, only when it says "walk"". let's punish the drivers who run red lights when they are 99% sure no one is coming, but not jaywalkers who are 99% sure no one is coming. both activities are illegal, only 1 is enforced.

[CtownMikey]

As long as no one gets hurt in the process and the driver has the money to pay the fine if caught.. i say jay walk and run the red lights all you want.. Isn't the city in the middle of researching the best way to re-program the traffic lights and has a few million to do that as well as fix anything that needs fixing as far traffic related equipment goes?

After all.. it's not a crime if you're not caught kidding

[Cotuit]

Isn't the city in the middle of researching the best way to re-program the traffic lights and has a few million to do that as well as fix anything that needs fixing as far traffic related equipment goes?

The city has money to re-time the lights Downcity, I don't know if they have the money to fix all that's broken/malfunctioning, i.e. walk signals.

Not being on a grid, the lights in the city will never allow one to drive uninterrupted the way one can in a place like Manhattan.

[Recchia]

i still fail to see this rampant red light running that people claim goes on here.

Are you joking???

if you wish to ban cars altogether, state that up front. otherwise, promoting big brother-ish methods of law enforcement is just as absurd as my argument.

I will state it, I wish to ban cars all together! I wish...

[runawayjim]

As long as no one gets hurt in the process and the driver has the money to pay the fine if caught.. i say jay walk and run the red lights all you want.. Isn't the city in the middle of researching the best way to re-program the traffic lights and has a few million to do that as well as fix anything that needs fixing as far traffic related equipment goes?

After all.. it's not a crime if you're not caught kidding

i agree... except that jaywalkers will never be fined, even though it is against the law. this makes the law extremely biased. that's not how it should be.

as for me being "heartless", we choose our own destiny. you jaywalk, you risk getting hit. the risk is much much much greater than being a law abiding pedestrian. so no, i don't have sympathy for you if you are killed while jaywalking.

[Cotuit]

as for me being "heartless", we choose our own destiny. you jaywalk, you risk getting hit. the risk is much much much greater than being a law abiding pedestrian. so no, i don't have sympathy for you if you are killed while jaywalking.

Well, I hope no one you care for is ever struck by a car.

[Recchia]

Atleast jaywalking you're only really a danger to yourself for the most part. Running a red light you're a danger to all in the intersection. 2,000 lbs vs. 185 lbs.

I don't see a problem with jaywalking, as long as you're not a friggen idiot about it. I jaywalk all the time but never if a car is coming flying at me. It's the morons that hesitate and then go, walk out randomly, or get to a light too late and start walking seconds before the light for motorists turns green that are the problem.

[runawayjim]

Atleast jaywalking you're only really a danger to yourself for the most part. Running a red light you're a danger to all in the intersection. 2,000 lbs vs. 185 lbs.

I don't see a problem with jaywalking, as long as you're not a friggen idiot about it. I jaywalk all the time but never if a car is coming flying at me. It's the morons that hesitate and then go, walk out randomly, or get to a light too late and start walking seconds before the light for motorists turns green that are the problem.

and i don't see a problem with running a red light when you are 100% sure there is no way you will hit someone. i don't run red lights on the off chance a cop might happen to be nearby. you'll get a ticket for running the light in that case, but if a cop is sitting there and you jaywalk, you most likely will not get a ticket.

see my point? you don't walk out into moving traffic. you don't drive out into moving traffic. the large majority of drivers would not run a red light for any reason (i'm included in that). but i agree with mikey that if there's no chance of you hitting someone, why is it a big deal?

[CtownMikey]

And I dont have any sympathy for those red-light runners who cant afford or dont want to pay the price when getting caught

[runawayjim]

And I dont have any sympathy for those red-light runners who cant afford or dont want to pay the price when getting caught

i agree with this one... but i still feel like jaywalking fines should be enforced.