fees coming to Millenium Park

[Kayak1]

Ottawa County parks require a yearly or daily pass. Daily pass was $4.00 per car. I think a yearly is in the $20.00 range. What is the big deal paying to use a park?

[tamias6]

Ottawa County parks require a yearly or daily pass. Daily pass was $4.00 per car. I think a yearly is in the $20.00 range. What is the big deal paying to use a park?

If memory serves me correctly, the ones who envisioned and campaigned for Millenium Park wanted the park to be a gift to the entire community to enjoy. I don't mind paying for the upkeep for this and other county parks via taxes. After all, that's what paying taxes is for. Even a small charitable donation on top of tax money, I don't mind. But being force fed an upfront fee for a gift defeats the purpose of giving.

[craig d]

Ottawa County parks require a yearly or daily pass. Daily pass was $4.00 per car. I think a yearly is in the $20.00 range. What is the big deal paying to use a park?

If you read the entire thread you will see both sides of the coin.

[tony speller]

If memory serves me correctly, the ones who envisioned and campaigned for Millenium Park wanted the park to be a gift to the entire community to enjoy. I don't mind paying for the upkeep for this and other county parks via taxes. After all, that's what paying taxes is for. Even a small charitable donation on top of tax money, I don't mind. But being force fed an upfront fee for a gift defeats the purpose of giving.

If someone gives you a car as a gift... don't you pay taxes on it? Don't you still pay for insurance and gas? Even so, you're still grateful and don't mind paying the extra... right?

ok, so people in Kent County county are paying taxes on the park.... but like a car, you have to put more into it to get more out of it. Think of paying these fees sort of like insurance... you're insuring that the park will remain special, be kept clean, safe, and will be around for a long time.

Taxes just pay for utilities and other regular "park things". Beaches and security, among other things, are not standard among county parks. Therefore we need to pay more... and asking people who WANT TO GO THERE to pay a little extra isn't aksing much. It's a lot better than raising the heck out of taxes just to cover it. Everyone would pay, but not everyone wants to go. Why would people want to move to (or stay in) Grand Rapids if the taxes are high? There'll be no secret to be kept then.

It's pretty amazing how ungrateful people can be.

[Rizzo]

If someone gives you a car as a gift... don't you pay taxes on it? Don't you still pay for insurance and gas? Even so, you're still grateful and don't mind paying the extra... right?

ok, so people in Kent County county are paying taxes on the park.... but like a car, you have to put more into it to get more out of it. Think of paying these fees sort of like insurance... you're insuring that the park will remain special, be kept clean, safe, and will be around for a long time.

Taxes just pay for utilities and other regular "park things". Beaches and security, among other things, are not standard among county parks. Therefore we need to pay more... and asking people who WANT TO GO THERE to pay a little extra isn't aksing much. It's a lot better than raising the heck out of taxes just to cover it. Everyone would pay, but not everyone wants to go. Why would people want to move to (or stay in) Grand Rapids if the taxes are high? There'll be no secret to be kept then.

It's pretty amazing how ungrateful people can be.

Ungrateful?! I don't think this is the situation. It's not about greatfulness, it's about why I'm paying for sherifs' overtime. I've been in more unsafe parks then Millenium. Richmond park -- girl was killed there recently -- where was the police protection? The fee is paying for overtime and its paying for the teen at the window that takes my money. Our taxes pay for police protection covering overtime... why is this different? The real problem isn't the fee, but why there is a fee. Again, this isn't about being greatful, its about not getting con'd into paying overtime when it appears it isn't warranted. I believe funding isn't an issue in this, its the fact people feel unsafe there. I want to see figures of the amount of police calls to the water park. Issue for is that it's the only part of the park under police protection. Crime knows no boundries.

This has nothing to do with insurance, remember I HAVE to pay for insurance -- IT'S THE LAW.

[tony speller]

Ungrateful?! I don't think this is the situation. It's not about greatfulness, it's about why I'm paying for sherifs' overtime. I've been in more unsafe parks then Millenium. Richmond park -- girl was killed there recently -- where was the police protection? The fee is paying for overtime and its paying for the teen at the window that takes my money. Our taxes pay for police protection covering overtime... why is this different? The real problem isn't the fee, but why there is a fee. Again, this isn't about being greatful, its about not getting con'd into paying overtime when it appears it isn't warranted. I believe funding isn't an issue in this, its the fact people feel unsafe there. I want to see figures of the amount of police calls to the water park. Issue for is that it's the only part of the park under police protection. Crime knows no boundries.

This has nothing to do with insurance, remember I HAVE to pay for insurance -- IT'S THE LAW.

whatever man... i didn;t mean for you to take this personally. I wasn't calling YOU ungreatful. I said "people"... which could mean you, Bob, or Sally... but doesn't necesarilly mean anyone in particular. I didn't even respond to your post. Anyway... you obviously don't want to go there if you have to pay, so don't... and you won't have to spend the 3 bucks to get in. Just like anyone else who has that same issue.

Like you said... you've been in more unsafe parks than millenium. Richmond even has a pond. Free swimming? No one will catch you since there is "no police protection".

Actually, I'm sure there is the same amount of protection that was there before Mil Park opened since the cops working there are "over time" (who knows).

I think it's lame to protest the extra money being spent on "overtime for the cops", whether that's the case or not. Would it be better if the county raised the taxes instead? If you don't go, you don't pay... simple as that.

it's three bucks to get in... how often do you spend $3 on something? It costs more than that to eat at Burger King... and spending time at the park is way better for you than eating fast food.

btw... the whole insurance analogy was "an analogy". i guess i didn't make that clear.

[tony speller]

Here are a couple of other Kent County services that charge admission/cost to use even after we pay taxes. Taken straight from the kent county website.

*John ball Zoo

- $4 (children 4-13), $6 (adults 14-62), 63 and over FREE

*Kent County Parks (besides Millenium)

- shelter rental (summer): $50-$140 per day

*The Rapid

- $1.30 per ride, $35 for a normal 31 day pass, & various other rates

Also don't forget city run public services as well... like the Public Museum of Grand Rapids, which costs $2 for children and $5 for adults. More expensive than Mil Park? Also don't forget that you pay to use a city pool, pay to park on city streets and in city lots, and so-fourth.

Man... holy crap. I guess we all need to be picketting outside the county and city offices, demanding our freedom from such atrocities. Our Dutch fore-fathers should be turning over in their graves!

The bottom line is that if the county just put things like these up and let us use them for free, they would either go under or our taxes would go through the roof. Do you want that? I don't want to pay higher taxes so that some Joe-i-don't-know can ride the bus, or pay for the zoo even if i don't ever go, etc. I'm not rich... and i certainly wouldn't be if i had to pay for all of that with raised taxes. I know I'm probably not the only one here either.

[Rizzo]

You're insinuating an awful lot, are you sure you want to continue? You just turned a valid discussion personal. I would wonder who on both sides takes this more personally? Judging by your response I would gather it isn't me.

:rollseyes: I'm of Dutch decent don't go there.

[tony speller]

I am not taking this personal at all. I'm just trying to defend the park i guess... because I think that the admission is reasonable and nothing to get upset about. Sorry for the sarcasm in that 2nd to last post of mine. I edited it so that it's more polite, but says the same thing... i guess.

I'm dutch too. Thought you'd get the joke being from GR. Oh well.

Anyway. the point I was trying to make is that if you're going to be agianst Millenium Park charging for their services, then you need to be against all the other Public Services that cost... like The Rapid, the zoo, museum, etc.

It seems pointless though, really... unless you want to pay higher taxes.

anyway, i just repeated myself.

[Rizzo]

I guess you just have to understand the situation. Why do you have to pay to get into the pond area and not to enter the park gate?

I think you're decisive on a whole other issue. It's not the park, the fee, the fight over privilege, but a fight of whether this park really needs an overtime'd police detail. At the very least if there is a crime problem that warrants a watchful eye, I would rather contract a private agency to observe the park -- It could be cheaper. If crime isn't really the problem I can spit off parks that I think diserve cops to stand around and "watch." That is literally what they end up doing, spending over time babysitting.

Start asking yourself, "why" instead of saying, "oh that's not much -- two adults, one child please."

[craig d]

"you obviously don't want to go there if you have to pay, so don't"

That is exactly what the people who made this fee want people to think. I'm sure there are a LOT of people who would want to go there if it were free again.

Tony, you're not looking at the big picture. You said, "Anyway. the point I was trying to make is that if you're going to be agianst Millenium Park charging for their services, then you need to be against all the other Public Services that cost... like The Rapid, the zoo, museum, etc."

That is not the same at all. A park designed to be free for everyone (from the planning stages on) should stay free because if nothing else that is what the park designers wanted. It is a lot different than the zoo or museum. If there WAS a crime problem at the park I can see where the issue of charging for security may be brought up at a county parks meeting and voted on WITH THE PUBLIC'S VOICE INVOLVED. However, this was NOT the case and the public never got an adequate chance to voice thier concerns.

The point that I (and Rizzo i think) am stuck on is not that there IS a fee, but it's that the reason FOR the fee is totally ridiculous and without weight. Therefore, we are trying to figure out why a fee without weight behind it has been brought up and voted on without adequate public voice and adopted so quickly. Why? By having this fee who is immediately excluded? Was there too many of those people who are excluded now on the beach last year? Or people will say, well it's a nice park and we want it to stay nice. It was never NOT nice when it was free! So how can someone say that?

[francishsu]

The fee was a one year pilot for them. I don't know what they're going to do next season, but it sounds like the family pass is going to happen. That sounds like a step in the right direction, depending on the cost.

But there are a couple of things that are troubling to me:

#1 The county commissioners claim that the security costs are higher than they planned. Did they think that security would not be needed at all or did they grossly underestimate the number of visitors? Or did they know all along that they were going to have to start charging fees, and misled the public?

#2 They expected to collect $500k in fees, which they claim are needed to cover the cost of the extra security. They fell far short of that. What does that mean? And if they do introduce the family pass, is that going to result in even less revenue?

On the flip side... the old adage "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." once again applies. It kind of reminds me of millage proposals. They're limited to a certain number of years and seem to have a defined scope. But when the millage is set to expire, what happens? They ask voters to "renew" the millage and emphasize how your taxes are not going to be raised.

[tony speller]

Hmm... well if it was designed to be free for everyone then that's a different story. I didn't know that. What is their plan for the fees after the year long pilot program?

[Rizzo]

"you obviously don't want to go there if you have to pay, so don't"

That is exactly what the people who made this fee want people to think. I'm sure there are a LOT of people who would want to go there if it were free again.

Tony, you're not looking at the big picture. You said, "Anyway. the point I was trying to make is that if you're going to be agianst Millenium Park charging for their services, then you need to be against all the other Public Services that cost... like The Rapid, the zoo, museum, etc."

That is not the same at all. A park designed to be free for everyone (from the planning stages on) should stay free because if nothing else that is what the park designers wanted. It is a lot different than the zoo or museum. If there WAS a crime problem at the park I can see where the issue of charging for security may be brought up at a county parks meeting and voted on WITH THE PUBLIC'S VOICE INVOLVED. However, this was NOT the case and the public never got an adequate chance to voice thier concerns.

The point that I (and Rizzo i think) am stuck on is not that there IS a fee, but it's that the reason FOR the fee is totally ridiculous and without weight. Therefore, we are trying to figure out why a fee without weight behind it has been brought up and voted on without adequate public voice and adopted so quickly. Why? By having this fee who is immediately excluded? Was there too many of those people who are excluded now on the beach last year? Or people will say, well it's a nice park and we want it to stay nice. It was never NOT nice when it was free! So how can someone say that?

Bingo bango! It seems people just look at the fee as nominal and pay for it without asking why.

[GRDadof3]

I'm confused on how you can design a park to be "free" forever? How can you at all foresee the Kent County tax revenues, maintenance costs, security costs, or anything for that matter forever into the future? I'm sure many of the State parks in Michigan were set aside by the State and did not originally have an entrance fee. Times change, costs change, needs change.

Did the county go about this the wrong way: sounds like it. Is there a need for the fees: possibly. I think the two issues are being wrapped together.

[gvsusean]

i think it should be like a state park and the only people who pay are the ones who park there.

[walker]

Here are a couple of other Kent County services that charge admission/cost to use even after we pay taxes. Taken straight from the kent county website.

*John ball Zoo

- $4 (children 4-13), $6 (adults 14-62), 63 and over FREE

*Kent County Parks (besides Millenium)

- shelter rental (summer): $50-$140 per day

*The Rapid

- $1.30 per ride, $35 for a normal 31 day pass, & various other rates

Also don't forget city run public services as well... like the Public Museum of Grand Rapids, which costs $2 for children and $5 for adults. More expensive than Mil Park? Also don't forget that you pay to use a city pool, pay to park on city streets and in city lots, and so-fourth.

Man... holy crap. I guess we all need to be picketting outside the county and city offices, demanding our freedom from such atrocities. Our Dutch fore-fathers should be turning over in their graves!

The bottom line is that if the county just put things like these up and let us use them for free, they would either go under or our taxes would go through the roof. Do you want that? I don't want to pay higher taxes so that some Joe-i-don't-know can ride the bus, or pay for the zoo even if i don't ever go, etc. I'm not rich... and i certainly wouldn't be if i had to pay for all of that with raised taxes. I know I'm probably not the only one here either.

For what it