Dreamscape

[bzorch]

Very cool advertisement video for a residential project in NYC. The video is worth watching for the context shots and models. 40 Bond Video I love the scale of the neighborhood for SoBro.

[cheeriokid61]

I'm thinking a trendy SOHO idea would work great here. Lots of boutique shops and cafes, buildings usually at least 5 stories tall - not too short - to about 15 or 20 stories - not too tall. Another great example could be the Brownstones in NYC- huge area of 4 to 6 storie buildings, with random 20-30 story towers on some corners. It's really very cool. Also, this will be hard to describe. If you've ever been to NYC and the Museum of Modern Art, and looked out the windows, there's a block of VERY cool 10 story (about) residential that are just cool. Sorry, no pictures, but trust me. It would be perfect.

Also, somebody mentioned parks. I don't think we have enough in downtown. We could use a good riverfront park and maybe one that takes up a block where people can relax and walk their dogs- think Wasthington Sq. Park in Greenwich Village. Also, some little plazas, they can even be concrete, where there might be a little fountain or piece of art, and where people can sit and eat, or relax, should be spread thoughout the area.

Sorry for all the NY mentionsl. I just spent a week there, and loved it.

[bzorch]

I was reminded of the scale of the NYC neighborhoods last night while watching RENT. Someday I will make it back. It sounded like a great trip. (No photos?) After watching the movie, I read your first post. It is great to hear testimonials from fresh experiences. I love the idea about the Brownstones. I think it is an overlooked topology. You can have a lot of diversity of building types in the 4-15 story range with the occasional high-rise. While wathcing the movie, I was also reminded how sterile and farcical many of the contemporary "loft" projects are. While reading your description looking out of MOMA I was reminded of this photo.

I also saw this photo this week and hope that SoBro does not look like this:

Shenzhen

More Shenzhen

[cheeriokid61]

Well, no pictures. I have no idea why I didn't think of that at the time. It was my break and I didn't even think about what was going on back here at UP, so I didn't worry about pictures for y'all. I look through, though, and see if we took pictures of anything interesting y'all might like.

[MidTenn1]

One of the reasons the low rise, Village/So-Ho/Tri Beca, etc area of Manhattan exists is because of the geology of New York. The Granite bedrock comes near the surface in the financial district (Wall Street), folds under and goes deep below the Village and comes back near the surface in the Times Square area. It even shows up as rock outcrops in Central Park.

Where the bedrock is near the surface, skyscrapers can be built directly on top of it. However, in the Village, expensive pilings have to be driven to support the weight. Hence, the the lack of skyscrapers between 10th and 34th Street (Empire State Building).

[cheeriokid61]

Oh, I just thought there happened to be two CBDs with residential in the middle. Well, it turned out to be a great area, and one that Nashville could model itself after, with or without the same geology.

[ATLBrain]

It actually sounds similar to Nashville's geology. But like Cheerio, I always thought that those districts were just slow to "go office"... and by the time midtown built up in the post war era, there was a lot of preservation afoot in those nice residential districts.

[cdub]

You mention the high-rise/ low rise mix as being cool, but these neighborhoods weren't designed that way. They evolved. First came the neighborhoods. These areas became highly sought after for a place to live. Then came the here and there highrise because of the draw of the neighborhood. People wanted to live in the neighborhood first, building second, so the only way to build in any of the Manhattan neighborhoods is to now build up because they've built out just about everywhere. High rises typically come into play when you have no where else to go but up. The key, is providing what really draws people to an area. Architecture and high rises aren't that.

Good development and urban design require sequential steps. Right now it seems we're putting the cart before the horse. This is what happens when developers call the shots and restrictions/ guidelines aren't in place to help regulate and direct growth.

[smeagolsfree]

There was an article in the Tennessean today regarding SoBro and the developments going on downthere. Make sure you click on the link form the Tennessean for the interactive map.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...ESS01/604020378

[bzorch]

Great article and interactive map!

Let us all mourn and honor the passing of the dream of SoBro being a wonderful mixed-use neighborhood. With the Planning

[Hankster]

Great article and interactive map!

Let us all mourn and honor the passing of the dream of SoBro being a wonderful mixed-use neighborhood. With the Planning

[bzorch]

I hope you are right. Though I must admit, I am more optimistic than my post reflects.

Does anyone know what is going on at this property? I noticed the fence and materials on Saturday.

Building at Demonbreun and 2nd

[downtown cliff]

I hope you are right. Though I must admit, I am more optimistic than my post reflects.

Does anyone know what is going on at this property? I noticed the fence and materials on Saturday.

Building at Demonbreun and 2nd

bzorch,

I asked about this property at the March meeting. Folks said it is going to be a real nice office rehab. I think it was either Will or Lexy that had a link for it, but not sure.

[cdub]

I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you end up seeing many of the residential projects going up in Sobro will be four to six or seven stories, not the 15+ you envision.

I doubt it, what's there to stop developers from going up? Supposedly Encore had to be 20 stories to get the 'numbers' to work. On top of that, the current land owners are going to be pricing their land on the assumption that everyone can build high rises.

Maybe we need to shift our focus to the East side and try to get guidelines and restrictions in place to help direct the growth. I'm just skeptical about anything but towers going into Sobro at this point. BZA/ Planning opened the floodgates for this.

[bzorch]

Thanks, if mentioned it to the entire group, I must of missed it or did not realize it was this property. It could be a very cool building.

I ran across this thread in the Memphis forum.

Pinch Place rendering

I like the scale, articulation of the facade, and its presence on the street. Many of the qualities I think the buildings in SoBro should have. It could even be a bit taller.

[Hankster]

I doubt it, what's there to stop developers from going up? Supposedly Encore had to be 20 stories to get the 'numbers' to work. On top of that, the current land owners are going to be pricing their land on the assumption that everyone can build high rises.

Maybe we need to shift our focus to the East side and try to get guidelines and restrictions in place to help direct the growth. I'm just skeptical about anything but towers going into Sobro at this point. BZA/ Planning opened the floodgates for this.

I simply don't share your view. Especially as you start going further away from Broadway, say south of Gateway Blvd, I would be shocked if there will be many highrises built there. I also fully expect the designs that will come from the 600 unit residential component of the Streuver Brothers Sounds project to be basically mid-rise throughout. As I said earlier, the same goes for the Rolling Mill Hill developments. We should get the detailed plans from the Sounds project fairly soon. That should give us a pretty good idea what to expect throughout SoBro for the near future, at least.

[bzorch]

Rolling Mill Hill will remain mid-rise/low rise partly because Metro owns the land and the guidelines are quite clear. So if you want to develop in Rolling Mill Hill then you have to build mid-rise. Though, there is one tower near Gateway in phase 3 if I remember correctly.

My optimism is only because I must hold out hope, but it does not look good. Once the Encore broke the ceiling, everything will continue. the Streuver Brothers Sounds project is also in many ways tempered by Metro since we are in the deal, and need public support, so they may show some restraint. But Cdub is right that the land in SoBro will now be worth even more, so it will inevitably push the buildings higher or nothing may not be built.

Just last week, there are rumors about the 40-60 story Hyatt hotel going in across the street from Encore. Ultimately hemming in the Symphony Hall. Developers wil begin to beat on the 200-220ft minimum and if the VCB say we can only get the CC to work if you approve this hotel, it will be approved. Greed is a powerful thing. Unless someone has other principles that drive them other than the mighty dollar, SoBro will lose.

The capitalist system (demand and financing) is the only thing left to hold the heights down below the maximum.

I just have to keep on hoping that there are developers out there that are creative and can make mid-rise work. They do exist. My abbreviated proforma exercise that I posted a while back showed that a 10 story tower could work over the 20-story Encore if 12% profit was enough. But if you can get 18% with building 20-stories and you can get financing and you think you can sell them, most developers will do it. Why wouldn't they? Would you support a future SoBro with all buildings being 20+ stories?

The silver lining is that at least they made the developers cover their parking with active space and set back after 6 stories. But to not make them set back on Demonbreun when it is suppose to be the pedestrian link between Midtown and SoBro, is mind boggling to say the least.

[smeagolsfree]

QUOTE(bzorch @ Apr 2 2006, 07:16 PM)

I hope you are right. Though I must admit, I am more optimistic than my post reflects.

Does anyone know what is going on at this property? I noticed the fence and materials on Saturday.

Building at Demonbreun and 2nd

bzorch,

I asked about this property at the March meeting. Folks said it is going to be a real nice office rehab. I think it was either Will or Lexy that had a link for it, but not sure.

I think it may have been Nashville bound with the link, but that is correct, it will be an office rehab. This will work great with the area.

I am for a mix of buildings in this area, unlike what some of you may think. The CBD will have to expand eventually, but when it does, I would much rather see it closer the the current CBD. I have my doubts about a 50 story Hyatt being built at Monroe Carell property just because Metro has already set the president with the Encore. I dont think anyone will be able to go over that limit.

[Hankster]

The capitalist system (demand and financing) is the only thing left to hold the heights down below the maximum.

I just have to keep on hoping that there are developers out there that are creative and can make mid-rise work. They do exist. My abbreviated proforma exercise that I posted a while back showed that a 10 story tower could work over the 20-story Encore if 12% profit was enough. But if you can get 18% with building 20-stories and you can get financing and you think you can sell them, most developers will do it. Why wouldn't they? Would you support a future SoBro with all buildings being 20+ stories?

The silver lining is that at least they made the developers cover their parking with active space and set back after 6 stories. But to not make them set back on Demonbreun when it is suppose to be the pedestrian link between Midtown and SoBro, is mind boggling to say the least.

I think that what ultimately will be built will be dictated by the marketplace. If developers find it difficult to sell high rise condos, and find it easier to sell mid-rise condos, then that is what they will build. The economics for a full mid-rise are far better than for a partially sold high rise. It's obvious that initially both types will be built, and it will begin to become obvious which type the public prefers. Housing driven by the wants of the general public....mmmm, sounds like a pretty good result to me. If the public demands highrise there, who are we to say that should not be allowed?

[Nashvillain]

Plus, I find it unlikely that every developer will be able to get enough financing to build highrises. They will be constrained in that regard, too, and may decide that 12% profit (or whatever their findings indicate) on a midrise is enough return rather than sitting on the property indefinetely.

[bzorch]

I realize demand will dictate what developer will build, but I do have an opinion as to what I would prefer SoBro to look like, just as much as I know I do not care for McMansions in the suburbs or the typical suburban sprawl for that matter. Unfortunately, the capitalist system has let me down on more than one occasion. I just don't think we should encourage the developer to build something I think is a bad idea for a number of reasons I have stated many times by our praise or revisions to bulk regulations.

[cdub]

So the market will reign. Currently, the market dictates most development in the form of sprawl. Is that a good thing? Yes, people have a choice with sprawl, but no it's not a good thing on economic, environmental, transportation, social levels etc. etc.

Under the market as the all-knowing being, who's to dictate whether or not a big box retail comes into SoBro in its current form? For example, all these people now reside downtown. These residents want retail. Walmart sees this opportunity to provide retail, doesn't matter what kind of retail as their studies show the people want to shop downtown. Walmart, being the megastore it is, is able to move in and choke out a lot of the demand for varied retail as they provide everything. One stop shopping at its finest. Is this a good thing downtown? What prevents it from happening, other than the absurd parking requirements at which if they want to be there bad enough they'll build a garage?

I've always been curious if the studies by these developers are telling them people want high rise specifically. Or are they seeing the numbers put forth in the various studies saying X number of units downtown by 2010? My feeling is they're looking at the growth number in units and wanting the biggest piece of the pie for themselves based on what their property will allow. Kind of the Walmart in residential theory mentioned above.

I think we've already seen with sprawl that developers are interested in one thing, profit. Rarely has there been one who's civically responsible. Its always the bottom line/ max. profit or government restrictions that actually rule.

[Hankster]

I realize demand will dictate what developer will build, but I do have an opinion as to what I would prefer SoBro to look like, just as much as I know I do not care for McMansions in the suburbs or the typical suburban sprawl for that matter. Unfortunately, the capitalist system has let me down on more than one occasion. I just don't think we should encourage the developer to build something I think is a bad idea for a number of reasons I have stated many times by our praise or revisions to bulk regulations.

I agree. I've been "let down" by developers in the past too, because for one, American tastes don't always match mine. I hate McMansions too, but it never ceases to amaze me how many people have to have one.

[barakat]

As far as midrise goes, I think it would be reasonable to expect some buildings like this in sobro:

http://www.eworks.org/traugott.htm

[hayesmw]

I think it may have been Nashville bound with the link, but that is correct, it will be an office rehab. This will work great with the area.

I am for a mix of buildings in this area, unlike what some of you may think. The CBD will have to expand eventually, but when it does, I would much rather see it closer the the current CBD. I have my doubts about a 50 story Hyatt being built at Monroe Carell property just because Metro has already set the president with the Encore. I dont think anyone will be able to go over that limit.

This will be an office rehab. 16,000 SF. Available this fall.

see: http://www.cbragland.com/broker.html

for a rendering.

The building will have fully functioning windows that look like the original windows. It should be a beautiful renovation.