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Faith based music complex


debo2040

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A little off topic but I think this debate here does a good job exposing the image problem Christian religions are facing which they have created either for themselves or which has been stereotyped upon them.

1)Religion has a superiority complex by nature, Christian or not. Of course that doesn't justify it. I do think however most people are rational and tolerant enough these days to not have that attitude. At least thats what I see in the younger generations.

2)There is no such thing as a true, perfect Christian.

3)In my own humble opinion, Christianity is not a religion which paints the scarlet letter upon sinners. If anything its about accepting that we all make mistakes someway or another, religously speaking or otherwise, and we all can be forgiven for them as well as giving of that forgiveness to others.

Okay...I'll stop there. I'm sure I've already come across as a Bible thumper...which is not my intent. I'm merely just trying to use my personal opinion, again for what its worth, to clear up some perceived misconceptions. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not saying I'm wrong. I'm just saying its what I think.

So...back to positive development in Grand Rapids.

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Fair enough j3shafer, points taken. I would also like to say that to many rational thinking people, a Christian music industry development would be just as bad, or maybe worse, than a casino or similar development. In fact, personally I think I'd rather see Mark London's project there. An obscure strip club in an obscure industrial zone would not stigmatize our image as a region. I'm sure you can understand that in some sense.

edit: I don't think you sound like a bible thumper.

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Sadly, after reading this thread twice (I kinda had to, because there is a lot if misquoting going on), it is my assessment that those opposed to this idea seem to be leaning further to the extreme.

I could personally draw up a list of a 100 reasons why this would be a bad devolpement choice, but I cannot imagine it killing the image of the city. I can also see this as a good thing, with the right spin.

My travels around the nation have drawn a common conclusion to the reputation GR has: A great place to raise a family. Most say those very words. I don't hear anybody saying things like "holy rollers" or such.

If this city were to regularly host events headlined by the likes of Amy Grant, Carrie Underwood, Third Day, Sixpense None The Richer, Micheal W Smith and Stacy Orico, I'm sure the commuity at large will recover.

I cannot understand how this would "not be good in any way, shape or form." (looking in our modorator's general direction)

:o)

Personally, I don't think this "faith-based music complex" is the mystery project.

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Fair enough j3shafer, points taken. I would also like to say that to many rational thinking people, a Christian music industry development would be just as bad, or maybe worse, than a casino or similar development. In fact, personally I think I'd rather see Mark London's project there. An obscure strip club in an obscure industrial zone would not stigmatize our image as a region. I'm sure you can understand that in some sense.

edit: I don't think you sound like a bible thumper.

From a business perspective what you say makes sense and I agree if there were to be a strip club business in Grand Rapids, at present time I think the already proposed site and plan is the most logical place for it.

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most of the "Christian" people here are completely opposite of what we need.

We need forward thinking people, who aren't afraid of change, and adapting to technology, not a group that loves to tell you how you're a sinner, how you are wrong, and how their culture is superior.

Part of the Christian faith is the belief that nobody is perfect, we all sin, even the most moral among us.

Seems to me that you are the one who believes your culture is superior to that of the Christians, who you claim are mostly incapable of progressing society. Sorry man. Your premise is just dead wrong. Christians have been responsible for much of America's political, cultural and technological advances. This great nation we live in has been, and continues to be mostly people of the Christian faith. Now I know some of you find that statement offensive, but you shouldn't, because it's the truth. By simply stating this fact, I am not attacking people of other faiths.

I'm sick of all these attacks that claim that Chistians are intolerant, ignorant, arrogant, etc. Really seems like hypocracy to me.

If you look back at the "Christians'" posts, you will see that, for the most part, they are very tollerant and respectful.

The one that has the people up in arms right now is Shaffer's post, here's a quote:

"It just upsets me when people try to seperate the religious heritage of this area from the community. In many ways they are one and the same. Of course I'm not preaching religious superiority and to the same token I am a believer in and accepting of alternative religions and beliefs."

Can people who say that the Christians are holding this community back explain to me what should be done to solve that problem? I ask you, must we become a city that is instead majority Muslim? Or majority Athiest for all you "non-religious" people. (By the way, everyone has a religion, it just means what you believe)

Again, don't try to twist the argument and say that the solution is just for us to be more accepting of eachother, because I've already covered that, and the people defending our religious herritage have been completly tolerant. But we cannot tolerate the intolerable. Stop with the Christian bashing so we can move on to other topics.

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Part of the Christian faith is the belief that nobody is perfect, we all sin, even the most moral among us.

Seems to me that you are the one who believes your culture is superior to that of the Christians, who you claim are mostly incapable of progressing society. Sorry man. Your premise is just dead wrong. Christians have been responsible for much of America's political, cultural and technological advances. This great nation we live in has been, and continues to be mostly people of the Christian faith. Now I know some of you find that statement offensive, but you shouldn't, because it's the truth. By simply stating this fact, I am not attacking people of other faiths.

I'm sick of all these attacks that claim that Chistians are intolerant, ignorant, arrogant, etc. Really seems like hypocracy to me.

If you look back at the "Christians'" posts, you will see that, for the most part, they are very tollerant and respectful.

The one that has the people up in arms right now is Shaffer's post, here's a quote:

"It just upsets me when people try to seperate the religious heritage of this area from the community. In many ways they are one and the same. Of course I'm not preaching religious superiority and to the same token I am a believer in and accepting of alternative religions and beliefs."

Can people who say that the Christians are holding this community back explain to me what should be done to solve that problem? I ask you, must we become a city that is instead majority Muslim? Or majority Athiest for all you "non-religious" people. (By the way, everyone has a religion, it just means what you believe)

Again, don't try to twist the argument and say that the solution is just for us to be more accepting of eachother, because I've already covered that, and the people defending our religious herritage have been completly tolerant. But we cannot tolerate the intolerable. Stop with the Christian bashing so we can move on to other topics.

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Did you include me in the "Christian" posts? Because I am a Christian :D I think Northender said he was too :whistling:

I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.

And PictureMichigan, good points. Maybe I was a bit harsh, but I was doing so as a forumer, not as a moderator.

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All of this speculation was fun at first but I think we can all tell its growing a little tiresome. I just wish they'd tell us already. I forgot who said it but I had heard that one city commissioner had voted no to the price tag and selling of the infamous city property because all of this secrecy and how he feels like all the speculation could be potentially damaging. Sometimes I wish that none of this would've leaked so we all could've just been really surprised when an official announcement was made. The information age strkes again.

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Did you include me in the "Christian" posts? Because I am a Christian :D I think Northender said he was too :whistling:

I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.

And PictureMichigan, good points. Maybe I was a bit harsh, but I was doing so as a forumer, not as a moderator.

Well I agreed with Shaffer's post, you dissagreed. I think you misinterpreted his "take it or leave" statment. There was nothing wrong with saying that. It's not like he was saying anyone who isn't a Christian is not welcome in Grand Rapids.

I personally would rather see a Christian entertainment industry move here than to see us turn into a degenerate city like Las Vegas (not very "family friendly.") Woul.d you rather we be known for a different sect of the music industry, like some of the rap artists and America-haters? I wouldn't. Also, when I think about raising children, the idea of a casino seems like it would denegrate their environment more than a Christian music studio would. I mean, let's be real here.

In your effort to be accepting, don't abandon your beliefs.

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Select Lyrics from Paddy Casey's "Saints and Sinners"

These are perfect for this whole Mystery Development.

Nobody in the forum really wants a (Religious) Music Industry or a Strip CLub. Saints and SInners need not apply. Think about this whole Project X discussion when reading the lyrics. Wild coincidences. OR as Sting would say "synchronicity".

When you got time and streets making saints & sinners

Ink on sheets makin' losers and winners

Well it's not what your dreams should be

You know I wish we had more time

You know I wish we had more time

You know I think it was a crime

The things we waste trying to not waste our time

When you got time and streets making ends for beginners

Shuffling feets on these losers and winners

Well it's not what your dreams should be

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I personally would rather see a Christian entertainment industry move here than to see us turn into a degenerate city like Las Vegas (not very "family friendly.") In your effort to be accepting, don't abandon your beliefs.

I would not want to see either. Both extreme ends of a very large spectrum. I'll "leave" the other statement as a gift to you.

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Well I agreed with Shaffer's post, you dissagreed. I think you misinterpreted his "take it or leave" statment. There was nothing wrong with saying that. It's not like he was saying anyone who isn't a Christian is not welcome in Grand Rapids.

I personally would rather see a Christian entertainment industry move here than to see us turn into a degenerate city like Las Vegas (not very "family friendly.") Woul.d you rather we be known for a different sect of the music industry, like some of the rap artists and America-haters? I wouldn't. Also, when I think about raising children, the idea of a casino seems like it would denegrate their environment more than a Christian music studio would. I mean, let's be real here.

In your effort to be accepting, don't abandon your beliefs.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly a cheerleader for this Christian music company either.

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Did you include me in the "Christian" posts? Because I am a Christian :D I think Northender said he was too :whistling:

I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.

And PictureMichigan, good points. Maybe I was a bit harsh, but I was doing so as a forumer, not as a moderator.

Yes I did say that, but apparently it wasn't quoted.

My point is in line with yours, even though the horse is dead here, dealing with religious zealots can be tiring. Also, it would hurt us moving forward with other developments.

I would just like one question answered,

Who's viewpoint is more important in Zeeland. The person who wants to have a drink, or the people who want to tell those people they are wrong for wanting to have a drink.

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I would just like one question answered,

Who's viewpoint is more important in Zeeland. The person who wants to have a drink, or the people who want to tell those people they are wrong for wanting to have a drink.

I am a Christian, and I believe you should have the right to buy a drink in Zeeland. The Bible does not condem consumption of alcohol. That's like prohabition. All it does is hurt the local buisnesses, and it doesn't keep people there from drinking, if that's the goal.

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I personally would rather see a Christian entertainment industry move here than to see us turn into a degenerate city like Las Vegas
From Frommer's.com:

"Las Vegas (Sin City) has more churches per capita than any other city in America."

Woul.d you rather we be known for a different sect of the music industry, like some of the rap artists and America-haters?

Not familiar with the "America-haters" band/group. Specific name? Just looking for some factual clarification

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From Frommer's.com:

"Las Vegas (Sin City) has more churches per capita than any other city in America."

At one time, that might have been true. As Las Vegas adds 4000+ new residents to the metro area per month, I doubt the construction of new churches has kept pace.

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"Las Vegas (Sin City) has more churches per capita than any other city in America."

I think you are confusing Las Vegas with Grand Rapids. I've read/heard that GR has the most churches per capita. Infact my sister was just telling me this tonight.

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ok kids, this has definately run it's course. I think this debate needs to take place in the coffee house under a different thread. That is if you truly want to duke out something, that niether party will cave on.

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I think you are confusing Las Vegas with Grand Rapids. I've read/heard that GR has the most churches per capita. Infact my sister was just telling me this tonight.

That's actually not true. It's another one of those GR Urban Myths. In fact, on so called "most conservative cities/regions" reports, Grand Rapids doesn't even show up.

We can move this to the Watering Hole. It's not Sunday yet. :rofl:

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I must have missed this thread (my Project X filter was one). I will stab myself if we end up with J.C. land on 35 acres of prime downtown real estate.

Actually, I cringe thinking of any music business moving into town. As someone said before, Mega-record companies will eventually shrink, consolidate, shrivel up. I hope this isn't the anchor of anything moving into town.

The one thing that makes me think it isn't a christian venue is that the developers had originally said they would help Mark London find a new location that fit the criteria for a strip club. That wouldn't be very christian of them... }8-(

Joe

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Evac, thanks for your comments. For those of you whose opinions are similar to this earlier post "...who aren't afraid of change, and adapting to technology, not a group that loves to tell you how you're a sinner, how you are wrong, and how their culture is superior." I'm sorry that this has been your experience with Christianity.

Please learn to seperate Christianity from religion. A Christian is someone who chooses to follow Christ. The Christ you read about in the Bible who was a friend of "sinners." A man who not only wasn't "afraid of change" but actually enjoyed challenging the religious status que. He cetainly never told anyone that he was superior but on multiple occasions said he came to serve, not be served. This is Christianity.

Religion is man made rules, procedures, routines, etc. You can choose to follow Christ without being religious. On the flip side I think you'd be surprised how many "religious people" aren't Christians. Please don't stereotype Christians as people who think they're superiour because they choose not to go to strip clubs, or choose not to drink, etc. And when you hear that you're a sinner please listen to the rest of the message. The rest of the message is that so am I, so is Billy Graham, so is every person who's walked this earth. That's why we need forgiveness.

I think you'd be impressed with the type of people who make up the Christian Music Industry. They're not the close-minded, afraid of technology, backwards, anti-fun, people you've imagined. They'd be a great addition to our community. They'd certainly bring more positive to this city than the extremely out of touch hollywood and LA types.

But, I don't think this is project X.

P.S...this is why I love this forum. The discussions about development cover every topic imaginable. It's great to have an outlet where so many passionate people can discuss ideas. I learn so much every time I tune in.

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