I-85 is only going to get worse

[Spartan]

According to this article in the Herald-Journal, traffic on I-85 is going to double in the next 20 years.

I think the article paints a rather dire situation for the Upstate. Traffic will double between Greenville and Spartanburg, from 75,000 cars/day to 130,000 cars/day. The current 25 minute trip between the two cities would take 50 minutes in 2025.

I-85 ideally needs to be 5 lanes in each direction... but that would require buying up land on either side of the highway for two additional lanes and redesigning intersections and overpasses, etc, which would be extremely expensive. The article doesn't mention that the highway has the area available ot add one lane (at least it looks that way to me). It also dousnt mention the incredibly long time that it would take to complete. The last widening (adding 1 lane each direction) took how long?

"Widening might not even be possible because of air quality restrictions. The Spartanburg-Greenville area is currently near the legal limit for particulate matter (soot) and ozone in the air. If levels rise too high, any highway expansions would be blocked."

Whats worse is that studies show that a light rail line between the two cities would only draw about 1500 people.

So what do we do? If this isn't a sign to our leaders to start making real changes in the way we operate here, we will grow ourselves into something worse than Atlanta.

One problem is that there is not high demand for traffic between Greenville and Spartanburg because Spartanburg is not a suburb of Greenville. We only net around a 1000 person loss to Greenville County. The light rail effort should be concentrated on Greenville and its suburbs for now. I think Spartanburg should start figuring out where it should go, and generally getting the wheels in motion. Commuter rail may be more practical than light rail, since it would have fewer stops than light rail.

At this point "encouraging" better land use practices may be out of the question. It may be time to start forcing them on Upstate counties, specifically Greenville and Spartanburg. We will become Atlanta folks... its just a matter of time.

[goodbye]

I would say it is not a regional problem. Just look at every major city in the U.S. We still don't know what real traffic is in the Upstate yet, although there are specific areas of daily rush hour congestion in Greenville. This does not negate the need for new methods of transportation though. I agree that LRT should be implemented in Greenville as soon as possible. Hopefully, the highspeed rail between DC and ATL will go through and allow a viable option for travel on the East Coast.

Although I agree that Spartanburg is not a "suburb" of Greenville, the city (Spbg) should work very closely with Greenville as most of its growth is attributed to the growth of G-ville, and when Greenville successfully achieves LRT, Spartanburg will need to be onboard to benefit as well. I see far too many people in Spartanburg afraid to venture a few miles west into Greenville to learn what is coming to the Upstate community. It really makes me sick to witness the reclusive nature so many show over there.

[krazeeboi]

Sure other major cities have these types of problems, but I believe the situation is rather aggravated in the Upstate due to I-85's dominating presence. I-26, I would imagine, poses less of a problem. I also think this brings up another downside of Greenville concentrating so much business along I-85; people will feel compelled to take the interstate to get to many of these places, thus increasing traffic woes. The air quality statement was dead on, and this leads to issues which can affect quality of life, such as an increase in respiratory infections and migraine occurrences. It really amuses me when I read statements from Upstate leaders, particularly from Greenville, that say something to the effect of "We don't want to become another Atlanta." With the way things are going, it's practically inevitable at this point. I think some of it has to do with the political climate of the area, but some of it is also attributed to wrong priorities.

[goodbye]

Regardless of your feelings about Greenville, the interstate system has been the lifeblood of most, if not all cities in the nation - including Greenville. Traffic is far worse in many other places. The State is the entity we should hold responsible for any necessary interstate expansions in the region. If so much money can be alotted to build an unnecessarily lavish bridge in Charleston, a lesser amount could be given to help fix the traffic "problems" in the Upstate.

[krazeeboi]

Sure the interstate has been the "lifeblood" of a lot of cities, but at what expense? A disjointed urban fabric, marginalized communities relegated to a decaying urban core, and car-dependent suburbs. This applies less so to SC's cities since--thankfully--the interstates don't rip through downtown; yet, at the same time, Columbia and Charleston seem to have attracted their fair share of investment without littering their interstates with office parks. At this point, I don't feel that Greenville in particular is really doing the right thing by concentrating so much of its efforts along the I-85 corridor while the urban core yet lacks maturity, especially given the size of the city/metro area; it seems as though Greenville is intent on making a bad problem worse by doing this, knowing that we have one of the most underfunded DOTs in the nation. The more I think about it, the more I really believe that if Greenville stays on this track (which it seems like it might), the worse it will be for the region. In the end, it may defeat the purpose of residential infill and other improvements downtown. I guess it all remains to be seen.

[monsoon]

Hopefully, the highspeed rail between DC and ATL will go through and allow a viable option for travel on the East Coast.

I would not count on that happening in the next 20 years. If we are lucky the Charlotte to DC portion might be open by then, but only because NC & Virginia are paying for it and there is already passenger service along this route. If it is going to go from CLT to ATL, then GA and SC are going to have to pony up a lot of cash and soon to start preserving the ROW.

----------

A note on LRT vs Commuter Rail.

LRT is used within a city to provide for denser development without increasing automobile traffic in the city. It does not reduce current traffic congestion. These days a starter LRT is going to cost at least $500M and probably more.

CR is used to deliver commuters to a work location, usually a center city. These can help reduce traffic congestion on major highways, but like CR, usually keep it from getting worse. These system can be much less expensive than LRT. For example Nashvile is building a 30 mile starter line for $40-$45M. Realistically however a cheap system is more like $100M. Unfortunately bad planning can kill these systems. Costs of the CR system in RDU rose to $1B and the feds killed it for costing too much for too few riders. They are still trying to get it approved but the prospects don't look too good. A study of that failure is warranted for any city looking to build a transit system.

Neither method of transportation will do much for traffic congestion unless there are definate plans to change the way a city does development. And this means making tough decisions to concentrate development along transit corridors, and preventing sprawl and bad development elsewhere. I say tough because as soon as a planning board does this, there are cries from property owners and developers that they are being denied their property rights. (i.e. they lose money)

[goodbye]

Krazeeboi, since you don't live here, your thoughts are of little concern. You obviously don't know how strong downtown currently is, and how much stronger it is becoming. I think you are afraid to admit this. These new office parks bring high paying jobs and wealthy visitors to Greenville - in the end adding desireable citizens to the community, and causing more people to become aware of downtown Greenville. The money for roads and rails will come before long.

[GvilleSC]

I'd say that the 85 business parks are in the best interest of Greenville's future. Think about it: from the airport, the Eastside, Fountain Inn, Mauldin, Simpsonville, and Spartanburg- workers are going to get to work faster. Getting them off the road and out of their cars. This is where Greenville County's growth is and more people working here should help decrease commute times and pollution caused by cars.

[krazeeboi]

It's fine if you wish to disagree and relegate my comments as irrelevant; it really doesn't bother me at all. I think it's rather biased to only eat up the good comments from outsiders, and not take criticism as well. As great of a place as the Upstate is, it needs to be realized that there are some serious small-to-medium sized problems that now exist that will become big problems eventually if something proactive isn't done to counter them. The fact of the matter is that I know I'm not way out on a limb here, as there are other who take positions similar to mine (and yes, some do live in GSP). Furthermore, I know what I see and what I read. I have no qualms with downtown Greenville; you have no idea how much I brag about it on other forums and in casual conversations. Also note that I have been careful to relegate my comments to the present, and then extrapolate from there if current trends continue. Will the money come for infrasturcture improvements/upgrades? Perhaps, but by then will the area have sprawled itself to hell? I pray not. As I've said, it all remains to be seen. Don't take what I'm saying as a personal insult or an insult against Greenville, because it's not; but at the same time, you can't just stick your head in the sand and just think that everything will eventually work itself out, because that's simply not how the real world operates.

[goodbye]

One of the main facts in favor of these new high-class office parks is their location on or near two major interstates in the region, placing them in the middle of the Upstate. Now for the point people are obviously forgetting here: All of these businesses are being built directly adjacent to the largest master-planned piece of property in SC, which will house more than 2,000 residents within the City. Tell me again why this is such a bad idea when these properties would develop anyway. There seems to be quite a fear that Greenville and the Upstate might succeed in becoming more positively recognizeable.

I live here and experience no worse quality of life than anywhere else I've been - in fact, much better. Traffic is less a hassle than in most larger or equally-sized cities I've been to. Air quality here is equal to, and even much better than many places I have been. Don't imagine my "head is in the sand." Why else do people move here from all over the country and from around the World and make the greatest positive comments about the quality of living found in this place?

[krazeeboi]

Skyliner, why do you keep bringing up fear? I have absolutely nothing to be afraid of, LOL. You must forget which metropolitan area I live in. No need for insecurity here; I'm discussing legitimate concerns here, not fabricated pseudo-issues. Greenville gain is no one else's loss.

You are correct that these properties would become developed anyway. However, my point isn't so much about the properties along the interstate becoming developed as it is the timing of these developments. Given the state of the urban core at this point, developments along the interstate are occurring in a disproportionate fashion, thus accelerating sprawl and traffic concerns beyond the handling capacities of existing infrastructure. It would be great to see something of an exchange occur in terms of business relocation/expansion in the Greenville area: two businesses locating downtown for every one business that locates along I-85. Of course, that's just wishful thinking. But I'm sure the next few years will provide ample opportunity to see how the city's urban core will mature in terms of business presence; this is why I'm trying my best to render my conclusions tentative.

But as things currently stand, what can the Upstate do to help mitigate traffic concerns along I-85, beyond widening?

[goodbye]

Just this past week, GTA plans for an expansion of service beyond the city limits were reported. This is a start. Cities grow in different ways, and in the Greenville area, regional thinking is very important. The City will adapt and people will be satisfied with the efforts.

[krazeeboi]

A little off topic, but speaking of regional planning, how effective are our state's regional governmental councils? Typically they don't seem to work so well and I would imagine SC is definitely no exception. Both Greenville and Charleston are really beginning to feel the squeeze right now as far as interstates are concerned (Columbia less so, since it has 3). I would hope this would put real cooperation on the front burner.

OK, back on topic. The bus system is certainly a start, but we all know how it works in most cities, especially in the South: the buses are for the less-than well-to-do, typically minorities. Maybe Greenville is an exception? But looking at what's occurring in Charlotte, with a lot of TOD occurring along transit lines, it seems as though certain mass transit options are polarized along lines of race and class, at least in the South. This is another reason why I love DC: the Metro there services EVERYONE.

[Spartan]

Although I agree that Spartanburg is not a "suburb" of Greenville, the city (Spbg) should work very closely with Greenville as most of its growth is attributed to the growth of G-ville, and when Greenville successfully achieves LRT, Spartanburg will need to be onboard to benefit as well. I see far too many people in Spartanburg afraid to venture a few miles west into Greenville to learn what is coming to the Upstate community. It really makes me sick to witness the reclusive nature so many show over there.

I agree 100%. I don't think anyone is trying to say that Spartanburg is a huge city or anything, but it is certainly at a higher level than every other town in the state besides the big 3.

I would not count on that happening in the next 20 years. If we are lucky the Charlotte to DC portion might be open by then, but only because NC & Virginia are paying for it and there is already passenger service along this route. If it is going to go from CLT to ATL, then GA and SC are going to have to pony up a lot of cash and soon to start preserving the ROW.

HSR will not solve the transportation problems at subregional area like the Upstate. HSR will be more effective at the regional level (ie the South) if they can make it go at least as fast a people drive their cars on the interstates (70-80mph) and if they start buying up land now. I have heard a figure of $7 billion to get HSR constructed btween Charlotte and Altanta. In 20 years it will be more like $14-18 billion.

Where HSR can really benefit us is in its freight capabillities (which nobody has mentioned yet). Much of the traffic on 85 is freight trucks. I think that if we can get some of them off of the road by providing more attracive shipping methods that it will help the traffic situation tremendously.

Krazeeboi, since you don't live here, your thoughts are of little concern. You obviously don't know how strong downtown currently is, and how much stronger it is becoming. I think you are afraid to admit this. These new office parks bring high paying jobs and wealthy visitors to Greenville - in the end adding desireable citizens to the community, and causing more people to become aware of downtown Greenville. The money for roads and rails will come before long.

Skyliner, why are you being so defensive? Krazee's opinions are no less valid than yours. Nobody is arguing against the Upstate's quality of life, or that its not growing. The question is how will that growth occur? It makes sense to compare our cities here in the Upstate to other cities in South Carolina (as well as other states) lest we become some sort of abomination of reclusive people

A little off topic, but speaking of regional planning, how effective are our state's regional governmental councils? Typically they don't seem to work so well and I would imagine SC is definitely no exception. Both Greenville and Charleston are really beginning to feel the squeeze right now as far as interstates are concerned (Columbia less so, since it has 3). I would hope this would put real cooperation on the front burner.

I think the Appalachian COG does a pretty good job at the regional level. Its hard to say for sure though.

[Greenville]

I think we all agree that developments downtown are preferable to along I-85, but what are city leaders in Greenville supposed to do? Do you tell a company that their headquarters MUST be built downtown, or else? I guarantee you that those companies would locate somewhere else. When we're talking about South Financial, and what they add to the metro, you help them locate along I-85 and consider it a win (since the gain of white-collar jobs, development, and spin-off businesses outweighs the fact that they are in the suburbs rather than downtown).

Let's think about the businesses that are along I-85. BMW could not locate downtown, because they are manufacturing. Michelin could have, and possibly would if they were relocating to Greenville in 2006. But when they came, downtown was not nearly as desirable and no business of Michelin's caliber would have taken that risk to move downtown then. Hitachi is also manufacturing, and could not be downtown. ICAR needs to have more space as well. How could ICAR legitimately have an urban campus without taking up a ton of space? So with a lot of the businesses along I-85, downtown is not practical. And besides, what if some of these businesses did locate downtown, but took up too much space with midrise buildings, parking lots, etc.? How awful would that be?

I think Greenville's sprawl is overplayed. Yes, it's a problem, but about 4 million people and a lot of land (sprawl) separate us from Atlanta. People talk like Greenville will be like Atlanta in 20 years if we don't do something. I totally agree that it could turn out that way eventually, and I support studies and examinations of possibilities to combat the problem. But the thing people forget is that sprawl is still growth. Sprawl is not nearly as preferred as dense, urban development that maximizes space, but it is preferable to no growth at all. So before we feel too sorry for ourselves about sprawl, let's be thankful that we have the high rate of growth we have (despite the fact that it needs to be managed better).

Light rail is a start, but convincing people to use light rail is hard. I don't know if Greenville residents, as a whole, will embrace it. Atlanta has it, but it is underused for a metro of Atlanta's size (perhaps it could have more stops also, but still). The line from ICAR to downtown needs to be explored, as does the line from GSP to downtown. Those are the two most practical and major needs right now, and city leaders have mentioned them in the past. If they would explore those, it would be a great way to introduce the concept to people in the area without blowing hundreds of millions on a light rail system that is a money pit. We need it, but if people won't use it it is not practical to build it.

Sorry for the stream-of-consciousness post. This week is an exam week and I am studying like crazy. I will post more later.

[g-man430]

If people would stop driving gas guzzling SUV's and drive hybrid cars, we wouldn't have these pollution problems we have throughout this country and the entire world. With gas prices these days, why drive an SUV. "SUV's are big, loud, and on top of one you feel almost invisible." (from the esuvee commercial)

[monsoon]

Where HSR can really benefit us is in its freight capabillities (which nobody has mentioned yet). Much of the traffic on 85 is freight trucks. I think that if we can get some of them off of the road by providing more attracive shipping methods that it will help the traffic situation tremendously.

There really isn't such thing has high speed freight. The advantage of putting freight on rails is because it can move massive amounts of freight at low cost but 70-80 mph is the practical limit of this kind of transit. The reason there is so much freight traffic on the roads is because it is easier and usually cheaper to ship many items by truck. The rail companies have not been that accomidating over the last 100 years to their customers which also hurts this business.

[krazeeboi]

You make some great points, Greenville. Now I understand the logic and even the necessity of some businesses locating along I-85. Downtown is no place for a major manufacturing facility like BMW, and you make a great point about Michelin as far as the time period when it came to the area. Now admittedly I don't know all of the details concerning South Financial's decision to locate along I-85 vs. downtown (if someone else does, please fill me in), but I would think that the city would have really pushed for a downtown location, especially given the amount of investment that has taken place there the past 20 years or so. I think Charlotte serves as a pretty good example here, having a Wachovia campus out on Harris Blvd. accessible from I-85, yet the majority of the bank's operations are centered Uptown (with another tower under construction). Concerning ICAR, I remember that we discussed this some time ago, and I think one point brought up was privately-held land which the city really doesn't have much control over. Aside from this, I do think that it is possible that ICAR could have been located downtown. There's a good example of an urban research campus being developed just a few miles down the road in Columbia; actually, both developments are around the same size with ICAR being located on 250 acres and USC's research campus spreading over 200 acres. But I think that density is the key word here; ICAR will have a development capacity upwards of 3.5 million sq ft, while USC's research campus will consist of 5 million sq ft. So I do believe that it can be done; the issue is not really space but land ownership. ICAR seems to be more comparable to NCSU's Centennial Campus in Raleigh in this regard, which is much less isolated from an urban core than RTP.

The sprawl issue is definitely a tricky one, even more so when comparing cities since each city is built differently. None of our metros have matured to the point where we can mitigate sprawl by actually choosing slower growth, which has economic consequences, such as has been proposed for the DC metro area. As I've stated before, the double-edged sword of I-85 is cutting both ways for Greenville and the Upstate. I'm really holding out hope here.

Good luck on those exams!

[jfl25]

Transportation is a issue that needs to be looked at carefully.LRT is a good option but like many have stated very expensive. This is a issue that everyone that lives within 200 miles needs to be concerned with because eventually it will effect everyone. For now Greenville's traffic problems are Greenvilles problems with some spill over to the suburbs, but what about in 20 years . Conjestion is gonna keep getting worse, but I do believe that the I-85 growth that is occuring is being completed smartly.With all of the growth occuring around I-CAR this does leave open the possibility of mass transit and will help cut down on traffic.Likewise the Verdae development will put alot of the people who work at these developments close so there will be less of a comute or maybe people will even walk or ride bikes to work ( dont count on it though). I agree it is past time to start thinking of traffic concerns, but its not to late to help correct some of the problems most major cities have. Let me close with saying many people do not like how City, County, State, and Federal Government are ran, but many people just talk and dont get involved.The only way to correct a problem is to get involved.So to all of the people who do not like how our transportation planning is going GET INVOLVED make a difference,elect people who share your ideas or run for these elected positions yourself.Change does not occur by itself.

[g-man430]

First, great post, jfl25. Second, the reason South Financial decided to build its headquarters along I-85 instead of downtown is because the land is cheaper there and they wanted all of the people who drive along I-85 to see them and know that they are there. Basically, it is for advertisement to try to get more business from people who drive along the interstate.

[Greenville]

You make some great points, Greenville. Now I understand the logic and even the necessity of some businesses locating along I-85. Downtown is no place for a major manufacturing facility like BMW, and you make a great point about Michelin as far as the time period when it came to the area. Now admittedly I don't know all of the details concerning South Financial's decision to locate along I-85 vs. downtown (if someone else does, please fill me in), but I would think that the city would have really pushed for a downtown location, especially given the amount of investment that has taken place there the past 20 years or so. I think Charlotte serves as a pretty good example here, having a Wachovia campus out on Harris Blvd. accessible from I-85, yet the majority of the bank's operations are centered Uptown (with another tower under construction). Concerning ICAR, I remember that we discussed this some time ago, and I think one point brought up was privately-held land which the city really doesn't have much control over. Aside from this, I do think that it is possible that ICAR could have been located downtown. There's a good example of an urban research campus being developed just a few miles down the road in Columbia; actually, both developments are around the same size with ICAR being located on 250 acres and USC's research campus spreading over 200 acres. But I think that density is the key word here; ICAR will have a development capacity upwards of 3.5 million sq ft, while USC's research campus will consist of 5 million sq ft. So I do believe that it can be done; the issue is not really space but land ownership. ICAR seems to be more comparable to NCSU's Centennial Campus in Raleigh in this regard, which is much less isolated from an urban core than RTP.

The sprawl issue is definitely a tricky one, even more so when comparing cities since each city is built differently. None of our metros have matured to the point where we can mitigate sprawl by actually choosing slower growth, which has economic consequences, such as has been proposed for the DC metro area. As I've stated before, the double-edged sword of I-85 is cutting both ways for Greenville and the Upstate. I'm really holding out hope here.

Good luck on those exams!

Good thoughts, krazeeboi. You make a good point about ICAR. I suppose I was thinking that things like a wind tunnel would not work downtown in a highrise, but perhaps much of the corporate space could (which is probably 95% of the ICAR space anyway). That would have been cool to also have Clemson's automotive graduate school downtown. I wonder if that was ever explored, or if it developers were considering I-85 the whole time? It does have good visibility where it is now, however. Probably more than it would have downtown.

I do agree that if a bank headquarters does not fit downtown in an urban setting, nothing does. I am disappointed that they did not stay there. I would think that a tower would have been impressive, given the square footage that the South Financial campus is supposed to include. As I type this, I wonder just how much the city is promoting businesses to locate downtown? We are basing that assumption on a blurb one week in the Greenville Journal's Business TBA section. I would like to think that the city did their best to get South Financial to locate downtown, but shifted their focus only when they realized South Financial only wanted to be along I-85. I guess we will never really know, will we?

[Greenville]

First, great post, jfl25. Second, the reason South Financial decided to build its headquarters along I-85 instead of downtown is because the land is cheaper there and they wanted all of the people who drive along I-85 to see them and know that they are there. Basically, it is for advertisement to try to get more business from people who drive along the interstate.

Good points. That brings up two important questions in my mind:

1.) Since land is always cheaper in the suburbs, why would a company choose to pay more to be downtown and get less space for their money?

2.) Out of the answers to #1, what does Greenville offer and what does Greenville not offer?

Something's gotta give. A city like Des Moines, Iowa has a great skyline for a city its size (Here is a link to some pictures and information). It is out in the middle of nowhere with nothing keeping it from sprawling (and perhaps it is, but not at the expense of its downtown density). Why does a place like Des Moines (which, as far as I know, is not much bigger, if any bigger, than Greenville's metro) have such great downtown development in comparison to Greenville? What is Greenville not doing that it could be doing?

I am interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on this. It seems to me that our downtown prices are overpriced in comparison to other cities (I doubt that), or our downtown does not offer what companies want in the way of amenities/resources to the extent that they would pay more to be there. Hmm...

[krazeeboi]

Here's an article that should provide some information relative to this discussion: The Urban vs. Suburban Battle for Business. It painted things in a different light for me, although I'm not necessarily 100% in agreement with everything the article states.

[Spartan]

LRT is a good option but like many have stated very expensive. This is a issue that everyone that lives within 200 miles needs to be concerned with because eventually it will effect everyone. For now Greenville's traffic problems are Greenvilles problems with some spill over to the suburbs, but what about in 20 years

True, but how much more expensive will it be in 20 years? Look at how much effort it is taking Atlanta to put in an LRT system after the fact.

[breed]

Good points. That brings up two important questions in my mind:

1.) Since land is always cheaper in the suburbs, why would a company choose to pay more to be downtown and get less space for their money?

2.) Out of the answers to #1, what does Greenville offer and what does Greenville not offer?

Something's gotta give. A city like Des Moines, Iowa has a great skyline for a city its size (Here is a link to some pictures and information). It is out in the middle of nowhere with nothing keeping it from sprawling (and perhaps it is, but not at the expense of its downtown density). Why does a place like Des Moines (which, as far as I know, is not much bigger, if any bigger, than Greenville's metro) have such great downtown development in comparison to Greenville? What is Greenville not doing that it could be doing?

If you are going to compare the densities of cities, you can't compare Greenville and Des Moines. You have to look at the way the cities were developed. Des Moines is much larger (their dense street patterns extend about 10-15 miles, as opposed to Greenville's 6-8) and has been for quite some time. As the bulk of the urban infrastructure was developed prior to the advent of the automobile, things are dense by their nature. Greenville, on the other hand, has experienced the bulk of its growth after we became automobile-centric.

Responding to #1... Greenville's downtown office market is doing relatively well. Prices and vacancies are much stronger in the CBD than they are in the suburbs. Is it cheaper to do business in the suburbs? Sure. Is it better? Not likely. The differences in vacancy and rental rates prove it. There are markets where it is vacancies and rental rates are cheaper in the CBD. Due to the wealth of amenities offered downtown, we don't have that problem.