Tough annexation laws

[g-man430]

Good story today in the Greenville News about the tough annexation laws in this city and throughout the state: http://greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...EWS01/603260329

-My question is that if these tough annexation laws are hurting the state so much, why don't they just go and change these laws to make it easier to annex something. In some ways though, it is good to have a small city in square mileage wise instead of a big one, because Greenville can make their city look really beautiful than just mildly beautiful, but it still hurts us economically though.

[g-man430]

Also, when was the last time you saw a city of less than 60,000 with no people in the county having a downtown the size of Greenville's and a 16,000 sports and entertainment arena? To me, it looks businesses like South Financial, Hubbell, companies with ICAR, and more are finally starting to realize that the size of the city of Greenville in population wise is a fluke.

[Spartan]

Also, when was the last time you saw a city of less than 60,000 with no people in the county having a downtown the size of Greenville's and a 16,000 sports and entertainment arena? To me, it looks businesses like South Financial, Hubbell, companies with ICAR, and more are finally starting to realize that the size of the city of Greenville in population wise is a fluke.

Thats absolutely right. The problem is that not everyone looks into things. Anyone with any sense would see that Greenville is an anomaly once they looked into it- but not everyone looks into it. There are companies which do things based purely on statistics, and a small municipality can be deciving when the city is so much larger.

[krazeeboi]

It also seems as though historically, Greenville city leaders have had little interest in working with the annexation laws to the best of their abilities, which is why Rock Hill has surpassed it in municipal population. I know these laws are antiquated, but even given that, I fully believe that Greenville could have already been at the 100K mark if past city leaders were aggressive in this regard.

[GvilleSC]

Well, we can't go back a change the past, but I think it's great that such an affluent neighborhood such as Club Forest WANTS to be in the city limits. Maybe someday ALL of Chanticleer will want to join the city. I wonder just how many people this is adding...?

[whitehourseview]

Current annexation laws were not written with a new urbanist philosophy in mind. Most of these laws and regulations were written when the state held strongly to a Jeffersonian/Agrarian idea and that communities were best as smaller organizations that could offer more rapid services and response to its citizens.

People tend to want to live in smaller communities because they appreciate having the social connections that exist in smaller communities over anonymous large municipalities.

The fears for larger municipalties include larger, wasteful beareacracies and disconnection of citizens from their local government.

[monsoon]

About 10 years ago, NC changed it's laws (as applied to some counties including Mecklenburg) that allows cities to impose zoning control over areas that may be annexed by the city in the future. These areas are called Spheres of Influence or EJTs. The big advantage of this approach is that cities can control how growth will occur in areas they will eventually become responsible for, and prevent the mess that usually occurs by little or no zoning that typically occurs in un-incorporated areas.

Mecklenburg voted to change over to this method in 1996 and Charlotte and the 6 towns fully control what happens to new development in the county now. The town of Huntersville has essentially stopped bad sprawl as it ended cul de sac development, requires sidewalks in all new development, streets have to be cross connected and also connected to adjoining neighborhoods, snout houses are not allowed, and there are other restrictions on new development. Developers and land owners cried out these restrictions would hurt their property values but in the 10 years since then, quite the opposite has happened and Huntersville is one of the most desirable places in the county to move too.

The ability to control future growth has made it possible to direct growth onto transit corridors and as a result, the Charlotte area has one of the most ambitious mass transit plans in the country, is building its first LRT line and if all goes well will start building a commuter rail line and electric street car system within the next year. Along the proposed commuter rail line there has already been 1.5 Billion of TOD development announced, most of which is in unincorporated territory right now, but being directed by places such as Huntersville.

The success of this approach in helping cities to build better places is undisputable now and I hope that SC eventually allows its cities the same authority.

[EDPro]

Most readers of this board would agree that South Carolina has historically undervalued her cities. Like whitehorseview mentioned, we were an agrarian society for well over half of our existence. But let's also not forget what happened when the Upstate began to industrialize. The textile mills developed their own villages outside of the existing city limits, developing their own fire districts, water and sewer districts, etc. Therefore, one of the legacies of our mill heritage is an abundance of Special Purpose Districts abutting our city service limits. As a whole, this 'overabundance' of Special Purpose Districts seems wasteful, but quite frankly some of them are very well organized and efficient.

I guess my only point is: while the annexation laws are very strict, the motivation(s) of the citizen living outside of the cities should be considered. This places the onus on the cities to prove they can be more efficient in serving the public good and make a compelling case for annexation directly to those potentially being annexed.

As an aside, anyone heard of the rumor that Chanticleer began talking of annexation several years ago after a particularly disturbing crime in the neighborhood? This was hearsay several years ago, so I have no confidence in this rumor (but apparently I'm not above gossiping about it on an internet message board).

[goodbye]

Very interesting topic. Thanks for the input, everyone!

I have heard rumors recently that Parker Fire District could be in the crosshairs for annexation. We'll have to see what happens regarding this and other possible locations.

[jarvismj]

Parker would be great for annexation, as that area is mostly residential, with Cherrydale also. I'm interested in seeing how this would work.

[jarvismj]

I'm trying to find a map of the Parker District, so that I could do some photoshop work to get an idea of what the possibility of having said district be annexed into the city of Greenville, and what the city would look like, both land wise, and population wise.

[jarvismj]

Population (year 2000): 10,760

Males: 5,136 (47.7%), Females: 5,624 (52.3%)

County: Greenville

Land area: 6.9 square miles

Zip code: 29611

Median resident age: 35.7 years

Median household income: $25,991 (year 2000)

Median house value: $51,500 (year 2000)

Parker, SC residents, houses, and apartments details

Races in Parker:

* White Non-Hispanic (75.4%)

* Black (16.6%)

* Hispanic (6.4%)

* Other race (2.4%)

* Two or more races (1.4%)

* American Indian (0.7%)

(Total can be greater than 100% because Hispanics could be counted in other races)

EDIT:

29611 is the Welcome Community also, and the population that I've found for that area is right at 30,000. I'll paste some more info

City: Welcome, SC

Population (2000): 28,367

Housing units: 12,406

Land area: 22.4 sq. mi.

Water area: 0.0 sq. mi.

White population: 18,199

Black population: 8,712

American Indian population: 70

Asian population: 88

Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander population: 12

Some other race population: 889

Two or more races population: 397

Urban population: 27,770

Rural population: 597

Median age: 35.0

Average household size: 2.53

Median household income (1999): $28,112

[krazeeboi]

Wow, never knew a town existed in SC by the name of "Welcome." I'll have to remember that.

[whitehourseview]

Welcome isn't really a town, it's just the general area around the Hwy. 123/Whitehorse road area.

City View was a town, but disbanded its government.

Most of the smaller communities to the West of the city were outgrowths of the western textile mill crescent.

[upstategeek]

Wow, never knew a town existed in SC by the name of "Welcome." I'll have to remember that.

Welcome is along the lines of Possum Kingdom, Tootertown and Sugartit. They are more a state of mind than actual area. For out Spartanburg friends, think Little Chicago.

That being said, the S.C. Municipal Association lobbies for loosening annexation laws each year, and each year the Legislature shoots it down. The tax districts have a lot of power because most legislators represent them as opposed to cities. Whether that is good or bad, I'm not going to judge, but that is what happens.

[vicupstate]

The Legislature has shown repeated disdain for its cities and towns. Allowing easier annexation would lead to rising property taxes for those affected. That is about as popular as Saddam Hussein in these parts.

Greenville should have tried harder, but even if it had, the chances of it now being 100,000 in population is very remote. Charleston has been extremely aggressive with annexation for decades and yet only reached 100,000 2-4 years ago.

A major shift towards annexation will only occur with some paradime shift occurs. Things such as passage of the Local Option Sales Tax, the legislature replacing property taxes with sales taxes, etc.

The point about economic development prospects not looking past the preliminary stats is well taken. Remember, The South and Hubbell are local companies. How often does a CA or NY company not even consider Greenville because it has never crossed their radar?

[MAJIKMAN]

This article in the Greenville News today was interesting. http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs....EWS01/603270314

But I have a question do y'all think this would encourage folks to want to be annexed into the city.

[GvilleSC]

Parker and Welcome would push us over the top.

I'd like to see the city go east as well. Before Mauldin, Simpsonville, and Greer take over all that is left on the eastside.

This article in the Greenville News today was interesting. http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs....EWS01/603270314

But I have a question do y'all think this would encourage folks to want to be annexed into the city.

Trash service, yard waste service...? I could also see them just wanting to be able to say "I live in the city"

[MAJIKMAN]

[Chickenwing]

I'm trying to find a map of the Parker District, so that I could do some photoshop work to get an idea of what the possibility of having said district be annexed into the city of Greenville, and what the city would look like, both land wise, and population wise.

You can use the county's gis map system for this.

http://gcgis.org/webmappub/

Under the layers, use the taxation section to turn on the special districts. Turning on the fire district should give you what you are looking for.

[whitehourseview]

Believe it or not, lots of folks by choice, do not want to live in the city limits or would prefer a smaller city like Mauldin or Traveler's Rest.

[GvilleSC]

It's definitely a case-by-case senario.

[Spartan]

Welcome is along the lines of Possum Kingdom, Tootertown and Sugartit. They are more a state of mind than actual area. For out Spartanburg friends, think Little Chicago.

Little Chicago? What?

That being said, the S.C. Municipal Association lobbies for loosening annexation laws each year, and each year the Legislature shoots it down. The tax districts have a lot of power because most legislators represent them as opposed to cities. Whether that is good or bad, I'm not going to judge, but that is what happens.

The fact that the legislature is even considering this legislation is progress to me. The most promising piece is the one to fill in "donut holes."

[jarvismj]

Here is my version of Greenville 2025.

In the picture, I've annexed Gannt, Parker, and Wade Hampton District's. I know that it wouldn't happen in real life, but it would be such a boost for population, I don't think that words can describe it.

[upstategeek]

Little Chicago? What?

You've never heard of Little Chicago? This area is north of the city and Boiling Springs. Got its name for all the bootlegging done in the 1920s. There are some other communites up there as well with some funny little names