Short Pump Developments

[NYCJSW]

Get on Cary and head west to the Virginia Country club. Pass by all those big nice homes in the western part of Richmond. Does that piss you off as much as Short Pump? What about the homes headed west on Monuement avenue? These homes are all part of suburban sprawl. White flight was only part of what created sprawl. The automobile and affordable housing had much more of an influence. As people became more affluent they commonly left the "center city".

[journiyin]

Get on Cary and head west to the Virginia Country club. Pass by all those big nice homes in the western part of Richmond. Does that piss you off as much as Short Pump? What about the homes headed west on Monuement avenue? These homes are all part of suburban sprawl. White flight was only part of what created sprawl. The automobile and affordable housing had much more of an influence. As people became more affluent they commonly left the "center city".

The monument homes were along a major trolley line, so they werent 'a part' of sprawl - the homes along the road to the Country club were established long before sprawl became what it is today. In my mind, those two areas are safe from inclusion in the suburbs that have been produced for the last 50 years or so. They are also not included in your analysis since both experienced white flight out of those homes at the same time, and within the last 20-30 years have been re-born as a gentile area to live.

[Cadeho]

Cadeho and ric75,

Both your arguements are pretty silly. Everyone benefits from Short Pump. Do you really think that all the people that shop there and enjoy the mall only live in Henrico? Perhaps you should check the sales for the mall. So everyone benefits from having a top notch retail center in the area. Also, farmland was everywhere, even in parts of Richmond before it was built out = a real shocker! It is funny how so many people on this board cry about the need for regional cooperation but have such polarizing opinions of the areas where most people live in this metro area. Remember, both Henrico and Chesterfield have a great population than the city of Richmond. Cadeho, your arguements are not anywhere near reality. Go take some urban planning classes at VCU.

Ric75, the jealousy thing was in response to the badmouthing of Henrico and everyother area outside of Richmond. Why the need the tear down every other area around Richmond? It just sounds so silly. Plus, your arguments works against Henrico but how does it hold up to other cities like Washington DC or Baltimore? So why even go down that road. Why the need to tear down other areas just to build up Richmond. I see the entire area as being a great place to live. Each area offers something unique. This is what makes the Richmond metro area the total package.

Believe it or not I have taken planning cases. It doesn't mean I will lay down for Short Pump, Hazelett, and wheoever else defends wasteful places such as our suburbs. Our older suburbs that eventually became parts of the city were excellently planned. Even those that weren't turned out far better than the children's doodles planners and developers have laid upon the land. I'm a Richmond history lover which you've shown yourself not to be. I appreciate the older methods of building and planning and know very well of Richmond's subruban growth.

Short Pump only benefits people who actually go, but the mall itself only benefits Henrico. You don't see that? Look at a map next time. Downtown Richmond should be the crown jewel of the region, not the crap you love. If the money spent in Short Pump was spend on downtown, as much as you'll deny it, we'd have a much better downtown that everyone would be proud instead of scared and skeptical.

If we didn't have that independent cities law, Richmond would benefit from Short Pump. Even if that were reality, none of the counties benefit from that area except Henrico. I guess that context blew right past you in your hurry to show how smart you think you are. Sure people are drawn from all over to Short Pump, but Short Pump should not be our region's focus. I'd be ashamed if that was Richmond's image.

[D_C]

Sorry guys, but I hate to break it to you but this type of suburban development is going on all around the country. Why does it have to be a downtown vs Short Pump? The Short Pump area is good for the entire Richmond region. You are dreaming if you think these businesses would go downtown. The city cannot get out of its own way on many of the projects already planned for downtown. Perhaps you should focus your anger on fixing your own house = City of Richmond.

I don't understand why so many here are bitter about Short Pump and other suburban developments. Then to attack the people that live in that area? How about the people who live in the fan and drive Range Rovers that are all decked out like they are going on a safari (water tanks on the back etc). A lot of people who live in the suburbs at one time lived in the fan. To me it just comes across as a jealous envy type of thing. Where do you think the people who live in the city of Richmond shop = Short Pump. I don't live in Henrico but I think the Short Pump area represents us all. Get over it! As Dylan once said "the times they are a changing".

heh heh heh...I love it when I see a 4wd monster truck in the fan. I just know that they spent 15 minutes trying to park that beast. True, it is ridiculous and owners of large elephant-cars who live in the fan should have to pay a special assessment on those gas-guzzlers. As far as fixing our own house goes, well, we are trying. Unfortunately, the biggest fix would be getting rid of our dilapidated school administration, superintendant and all but 2 of our school board members. We need a regional approach to education. Richmond has classroom space and a lack of kids. Henrico and Chesterfield have the exact opposite problem. If we regionalized our education systems, we could all run under one administration and trim the fat tremendously. But that is all off topic and I won't rant too hard on that here.

What I will touch base on is the apparent lack of planning in Short Pump. Build, build, build and worry about moving cars later, seems to be the theme. If you have never driven in Short Pump lately, you owe it to yourself to check it out. It's not like your typical traffic jams in large cities. When I have been in major traffic in NYC, Portland, Tulsa, Norfolk, Jacksonville, Nashville, etc... the mindset is that we are all in a traffic jam. Stay in your lane and we will all get through it together. Now, let's look at Short Pump. For some reason the lady on the phone in the brown Suburban decided she would change lanes 10 times throughout the 7 light cycles that we all had to sit through. As a result, several vehicles were not able to make it through each cycle, thus lengthening the wait at this bugger of a light. She managed to progress 3 whole carlengths!! Wow! Was I ever impressed! Multiply this butt-munch by 100 and you can probably feel my pain a little.

How about sidewalks? How are pedestrians supposed to move from store to store in this new downtown? Sure, you can go from place to place in each individual mall, but have you ever tried to cross a street out there? Not me. I won't even attempt it and I have been playing in traffic for over 30 years. I was the best damned frogger player in my group of friends when I was a kid and you wouldn't catch me trying to cross the street out there. IN MY OPINION, if you cannot traverse from building to building in this supposed "downtown", and have to get from one village to the next by way of car, then what you actually have is a "Cluster of Villages" not a downtown.

This whole concept of "downtown" is a smokescreen for an elitist attitude and racism IN MY OPINION. It's just the way I see it. Am I jealous? Maybe a little, but not as much as I am offended by the premise that stores will not locate themselves in the city because of this aura of crime and poverty. Let's face it. They won't locate in the city because influential west end-types are afraid to congregate around black people. Now. I said it. I pointed out the white elephant in the room. This segregated downtown will do nothing but limit the exposure to other parts of society and further alienate the classes. Do we need this kind of division in our society today?

Do I shop in Short Pump? Not if I can help it. Now that I have experienced the "wonder that is downtown Short Pump", I doubt that I will ever go back out there again.

"Welcome to the Cluster-Villages of Short Pump"

[journiyin]

heh heh heh...I love it when I see a 4wd monster truck in the fan. I just know that they spent 15 minutes trying to park that beast. True, it is ridiculous and owners of large elephant-cars who live in the fan should have to pay a special assessment on those gas-guzzlers. As far as fixing our own house goes, well, we are trying. Unfortunately, the biggest fix would be getting rid of our dilapidated school administration, superintendant and all but 2 of our school board members. We need a regional approach to education. Richmond has classroom space and a lack of kids. Henrico and Chesterfield have the exact opposite problem. If we regionalized our education systems, we could all run under one administration and trim the fat tremendously. But that is all off topic and I won't rant too hard on that here.

What I will touch base on is the apparent lack of planning in Short Pump. Build, build, build and worry about moving cars later, seems to be the theme. If you have never driven in Short Pump lately, you owe it to yourself to check it out. It's not like your typical traffic jams in large cities. When I have been in major traffic in NYC, Portland, Tulsa, Norfolk, Jacksonville, Nashville, etc... the mindset is that we are all in a traffic jam. Stay in your lane and we will all get through it together. Now, let's look at Short Pump. For some reason the lady on the phone in the brown Suburban decided she would change lanes 10 times throughout the 7 light cycles that we all had to sit through. As a result, several vehicles were not able to make it through each cycle, thus lengthening the wait at this bugger of a light. She managed to progress 3 whole carlengths!! Wow! Was I ever impressed! Multiply this butt-munch by 100 and you can probably feel my pain a little.

How about sidewalks? How are pedestrians supposed to move from store to store in this new downtown? Sure, you can go from place to place in each individual mall, but have you ever tried to cross a street out there? Not me. I won't even attempt it and I have been playing in traffic for over 30 years. I was the best damned frogger player in my group of friends when I was a kid and you wouldn't catch me trying to cross the street out there. IN MY OPINION, if you cannot traverse from building to building in this supposed "downtown", and have to get from one village to the next by way of car, then what you actually have is a "Cluster of Villages" not a downtown.

This whole concept of "downtown" is a smokescreen for an elitist attitude and racism IN MY OPINION. It's just the way I see it. Am I jealous? Maybe a little, but not as much as I am offended by the premise that stores will not locate themselves in the city because of this aura of crime and poverty. Let's face it. They won't locate in the city because influential west end-types are afraid to congregate around black people. Now. I said it. I pointed out the white elephant in the room. This segregated downtown will do nothing but limit the exposure to other parts of society and further alienate the classes. Do we need this kind of division in our society today?

Do I shop in Short Pump? Not if I can help it. Now that I have experienced the "wonder that is downtown Short Pump", I doubt that I will ever go back out there again.

"Welcome to the Cluster-Villages of Short Pump"

You forgot the four letter expletive after cluster...

Now to expand and point out potential changes in the mindsets...

I live downtown. I am white. And when I say downtown, I mean DOWNTOWN. Just by my buildings opening we have driven off 10-15 'transients' who used to sleep in the porches and awnings around our block.

3 more buildings like that and they will have to go to southside.

Grace Street will be reborn once Jemal finishes his task on the few blocks on Broad (which if anyone is counting is probably by the end of this year.)

Id say if people want to have a good time, they will be coming downtown by the end of next year. Then they will be moving into the fan and churchill and manchester in droves this summer once gas hits 4 dollars a gallon - why you ask?

Well because they can't drive their expeditions and faux hummers around the logjams of VCC and SP at 4 dollars a gallon... they could push them... so they will have to move closer in to their actual work place and walk to work - wait they wont walk, they will still use their expeditions, they will just go back to a more manageable cost per commute equation.

Oh well, downtown is the place to be if you want to avoid the recession - just a word to the wise.

[NYCJSW]

I understand what many are saying about the positive factors of living in the city. I lived in DC for many years so I get you. But what many are missing is the fact that where I live now in most big cities would still be in the city. I mean I can get to Carytown in about 10 minutes. In DC you could not drive from the Hill to anywhere outside the city within 10 minutes. I live in a neighborhood right on the James River off Robious Road. I can also get to Short Pump within about 10 minutes and Stony Point. So it is not like when I moved to the suburbs of DC and lived in Vienna which was easily 45 minutes from DC (with no real traffic). So the take home point is that in most major cities, some of these suburbs would be way within the city limits. So in Richmond I can have my half acre yard and dream home while still enjoying the city when I want. As I pointed out earlier, the nice homes on Cary Street/River Road were once "distant" suburbs.

[Cadeho]

Then move to one of those nice homes off Cary St Road.

Every place in the city outside its orginal square were suburbs. I don't find suburbs bad, it's just how we've built them in the past 60 years that is. I look at the old maps of Richmond quite often and it amazes how small this city was for a long time and it was one of the largest cities in the South as far as population goes. Richmond was surrounded by vast tracts of farmland. During and after the Civil War, the only "suburbs" were what is now called Oregon Hill in the west and Union Hill and Shed Town north of Church Hill and Rocketts in the east. Then by the 1890s, the explosion outward began with Chestnut Hill/Highland Park, Barton Heights. The city took Sydney, which would become the Fan, after the Civil War so technically, the Fan never was a suburb. However, west of the Boulevard was but it was quickly gobbled by the city. By the 1923 maps, most of the west end is laid out and so are the northside nieghborhoods. The city took quite a bit of land from Henrico and Chesterfield in 1942 taking many former suburbs. But these suburbs were smartly planned, in grid form. The neighborhoods didn't sprawl. Even the earliest ones outside of the city limits on Henrico's side were neatly planned until about the 1960s and 70s. Chesterfield was different, as it remains. I doubt they ever had good planners.

The older suburbs are far superior to what we've been building. That was one part of the debate. I hate Short Pump not only because it represents the worst planning practices, but people like Hazlett and the media want to make it its own place. No previous suburban areas whad been treated as if it were a replacement for Richmond. I can't stand how channel 6 jams "Short Pump" so close to "Richmond" on their maps. It's not necessary. They could easily jam "Bon Air" or "Highland Springs" on their map, but they choose to treat Short Pump as if it is on par with Richmond, that it is a special place. I have an issue with how it's built, what's planned for it, and how people practically get off at the mention of Short Pump. What was built out at Virginia Center Commons never had the fanfare given to Short Pump, it's almost similar, but I don't hate it. Midlothian wasn't treated as the new Richmond. No other place gets its treatment and I don't understand what's so special. Everything would be fine if Henrico and others had not created the fuss they have. If they had not proposed towers, everything would be fine with me. I find WBV as a way to stick it to the city, the quiet critics that it's all suburban sprawl. They're building their own city. It's not the traditional city, but it's the 21st century version. One hundred years from now, they'd probably be Historic Short Pump, the city that was Richmond's rival.

[NYCJSW]

"Then move to one of those nice homes off Cary St Road."

Sorry, I like where I live and wanted a new home.

"But these suburbs were smartly planned, in grid form. The neighborhoods didn't sprawl. Even the earliest ones outside of the city limits on Henrico's side were neatly planned until about the 1960s and 70s. Chesterfield was different, as it remains. I doubt they ever had good planners."

I don't think the neighborhoods off Cary St are all on the grid form. My neighborhood is not on the grid from and has a lot of green space. Many would argue against the grid from and would want to preserve the natural layout of the land better by incorporating it into the street design.

You can't be trying to compare Virginia Center Commons to Short Pump? Tyson's Corner gets a lot more press than Springfield Mall because Tyson's Corner is a high end center piece type shopping center - just like Short Pump. The only place I hear Short Pump being called the "new Richmond" is in these forums by this odd group that hates Short Pump.

"I find WBV as a way to stick it to the city, the quiet critics that it's all suburban sprawl. They're building their own city. It's not the traditional city, but it's the 21st century version. One hundred years from now, they'd probably be Historic Short Pump, the city that was Richmond's rival."

I think you better step away from the keyboard and take a breather. I have yet to meet a person who thought Short Pump was trying to be the "new Richmond". It is only a suburban shopping center. It is not trying to take over the world. It is a nice complement to the city and something the area greatly needed! If anything it will help bring more business to the area (including Richmond) and attract more people to live here.

[AFA2012]

well said NYCJSW

[ejones]

you should actually look at an aerial view (live local/ google maps) of the western cary street road area. it is true that it is not in a strict grid layout, but you cannot deny the a certain degree of a grid layout. the windsor farms area imploys a different layout, the hub-and-spoke layout. so it is quite clear that, yes, these neighborhoods were "smartly planned".

I should let cadeho speak for himself (and please correct me if I'm wrong) but I think you are missing his point. both va center commons and short pump are about 15 miles from downtown. Before VA center commons was built, there was really nothing else in that area. same with the beginning of drastic growth in the short pump area. So both were built pretty much in the middle of nowhere. both were about the same distance away from downtown richmond. both brought drastic changes to the economy of their respected areas. both built huge malls and vast seas of parking lots and big box buildings. but only short pump gets the attention in the media and from everyone else and only short pump continues to grow like an out of control wild fire. So I dont really think he was comparing that aspect of the two malls and shopping areas that you were describing between Tyson's Corner and Springfield Mall

btw. I've been to springfield mall. It's a dump unlike VA center commons. so bad comparison on your part NYCJSW between VCC and SPTC to TC and SM.

[NYCJSW]

As far as the grid layout. I know many environmental planners feel a neighborhood should incorporate the topography better and not just a a strict grid layout. That is what occurs on the river side of West Cary Street and what occurs in my neighborhood. Sure if you are talking about pure housing density the grid approach works better.

"I've been to springfield mall. It's a dump unlike VA center commons. so bad comparison on your part NYCJSW between VCC and SPTC to TC and SM."

I've been to Virginia Center Commons and if you think Springfield Mall is a dump then I'm shocked you don't feel the same about VCC. SM pulls from a higher end shopper than VCC. You might have missed my point. My point was that part of the reason why Short Pump is the toast of the town is because it offers a high end unique shopping experience. VCC is just another mall, like Southpark Mall.

"but only short pump gets the attention in the media and from everyone else and only short pump continues to grow like an out of control wild fire"

Right, because as noted above, SPTC is unique and draws from a greater distance because it offers high end one of kind stores (to this area). Why do you think the media talks so much about it and developers want to build there (a conspiracy)? So my analogy with TC and SM is applicable because it contrasts a flagship shopping center with a more typical mall.

Cadeho states over and over that all the development in Short Pump should have happened in downtown. I know 6th Street Market Place was a long time ago but its failure needs to be noted in order to balance the enthusiasm Cadeho has for mass retail downtown. I guess there is some puppet master dictating all this growth and media attention for Short Pump.

[wrldcoupe4]

A book could be written on 6th Street Marketplace, the city's then celebrated desperate effort to save the viability of Broad Street as a retail destination amid a rising crime rate and population fleeing to the "safety" of the burbs where malls offered a tranquil scene compared to downtown... It was meant to do more than connect two friendly rivals - it was to be a symbolic bridge (literally) of racial acceptance. Unfortunately, it was too little too late... the poor management of the property was apparent. The two anchors of Richmond society were gobbled up by larger department store chains and soon shuttered, their suburban locations rebranded... long story short - 6th Street was doomed for failure not long after it opened for many reasons.

I personally don't see the point in this constant fixation on Short Pump. It's a collection of shopping centers in a poorly laid out manner, not downtown's arch nemesis. Downtown will never become the retail destination of the state again like it once was...which is OK. Competition and drawing comparisons between downtown and Short Pump is like organizing a game between the Washington Nats and the Redskins. Everyone wants downtown to be a viable, successful center to a prospering region... Short Pump or Midlothian or wherever do not need to fall off the face of the earth for this to happen.

Creativity is what will make downtown prosper. A blend of chain and local stores to support the nearby population (downtown, Fan, Church Hill, Manchester, Jackson Ward, Carver, etc etc) will come together eventually. First Fridays and the art galleries/restaurants along Broad - creative. While the scene doesn't appeal to everyone, it puts people on the streets and businesses in the storefronts. It attracts residents to upper floors. It creates momentum and changes perceptions. A string of successes like First Fridays, corporate relocations like Meadwestvaco, VCU's positive impact, new performance venues, etc etc etc across downtown over time will draw interest, locally and nationally, from people and companies.

In the suburbs, we should work on redeveloping and revamping what's already been passed over for greener pastures. A county like Chesterfield, which always complains about the burdens of sprawling new development on its infrastructure would be wise to promote infill and redevelopment projects. Cloverleaf is a promising move... it's already acting as a catalyst to redevelopment (new plans for Beaufont Center) and the dirt hasn't even been transferred to Crosland! The county benefits by having development occurring in areas already developed because the existing infrastructure (utilities, fire/rescue, schools, libraries, etc) can be tapped into. While the county can't force developers to embrace this over building on raw land, it can incentivize through the waiver of proffers or tax credits or others creative means... reduce, reuse, recycle. And if the county was really creative and forward thinking, key locations like the intersection of Midlothian and Chippenham, Hull and Chippenham, Midlothian and Powhite, etc could be promoted as TOD (transit oriented development) opportunities as part of a larger collaboration on regional transit.

[NYCJSW]

"A county like Chesterfield, which always complains about the burdens of sprawling new development on its infrastructure would be wise to promote infill and redevelopment projects. Cloverleaf is a promising move... it's already acting as a catalyst to redevelopment (new plans for Beaufont Center) and the dirt hasn't even been transferred to Crosland! The county benefits by having development occurring in areas already developed because the existing infrastructure (utilities, fire/rescue, schools, libraries, etc) can be tapped into. While the county can't force developers to embrace this over building on raw land, it can incentivize through the waiver of proffers or tax credits or others creative means... reduce, reuse, recycle. And if the county was really creative and forward thinking, key locations like the intersection of Midlothian and Chippenham, Hull and Chippenham, Midlothian and Powhite, etc could be promoted as TOD (transit oriented development) opportunities as part of a larger collaboration on regional transit. "

Excellent post! Sadly these problems span the country not just our region. We have have always been a nation of wasteful growth and new is better. I guess one could argue that it helps stimulate the economy. I don't have a problem with new growth but I hate how we leave blighted areas behind. The entire region appears to be improving in this area. When you look at parts of Richmond compared to 10 years ago it is shocking. The entire VCU area, Main/Cary St between VCU and Carytown and the entire Boulevard. Carytown and the Westhampton area have really taken off as shopping destinations. The area around Willow Lawn has also caught fire when in the mid 1990s it looked like the enitre area, including the mall was in trouble.

I hope the Cloverleaf Mall project works out because if it does it will really provide a geat example for the entire region that you don't have to keep going further and further out. Perhaps a greenbelt around the city is needed.

[ejones]

greenbelt sounds good

[Culpeper Hokie]

I'm sorry, but a couple of you have reached near pathological levels in your ranting about Short Pump and Henrico. People live where they want to live. Some like an urban environment, some like suburbs and some like rural surroundings. For one group to constantly bash the other and chastise them like they were petulent children, is a completely disadvantageous course of action.

For instance, I love downtowns, but I like living in the suburbs. I try to get downtown as often as I can and spend money on restaruants, entertainment and small shops. However, hearing someone like Cadeho constantly rail on how stupid and wasteful I am because I live in the Short Pump area, does NOT make me want to spend more money in the city...."Hey we want you to support our city, you stupid, short sighted and wasteful morons." Nice pitch, there, Cad.

I love Richmond (the city) and I love the Richmond area. Don't spit on me just because I choose to live a different lifestyle than you. We are all interlocked in the success of the entire region. The suburbs would not exist but for the City, and the City could not stand alone. There is no separating them.

[journiyin]

I'm sorry, but a couple of you have reached near pathological levels in your ranting about Short Pump and Henrico. People live where they want to live. Some like an urban environment, some like suburbs and some like rural surroundings. For one group to constantly bash the other and chastise them like they were petulent children, is a completely disadvantageous course of action.

For instance, I love downtowns, but I like living in the suburbs. I try to get downtown as often as I can and spend money on restaruants, entertainment and small shops. However, hearing someone like Cadeho constantly rail on how stupid and wasteful I am because I live in the Short Pump area, does NOT make me want to spend more money in the city...."Hey we want you to support our city, you stupid, short sighted and wasteful morons." Nice pitch, there, Cad.

I love Richmond (the city) and I love the Richmond area. Don't spit on me just because I choose to live a different lifestyle than you. We are all interlocked in the success of the entire region. The suburbs would not exist but for the City, and the City could not stand alone. There is no separating them.

Can't we all just get along?

Not really, but it was worth a try.

Cam... your longing for what was is sometimes blinding to what could be... Wrld's proposition of a new look Richmond has legs... the kind that are already working. Also, Richmond has the potential to be a legal center for the indefinite future (so between the arts, corporations, and legalites... Richmond is set)

To all you Suburbanites... I can't blame you for your lifetsyles, but you can't sit there and tell me that you wouldn't trade in your 15 minute drive to work for a 10 minute walk to work... and if you can, well here's hoping your kids are active.

[Cadeho]

You will see. Hazelett's the puppetmaster behind Short Pump and the thug with the gun to Richmond's back.

ejones, you were right. Coupe knows I'm not for settling. I don't want to settle for a second-rate downtown while Short Pump gets every retail option and towers to look like the city.

To be continued...

[wrldcoupe4]

The success of Short Pump has more to do with market forces than the Hazelett conspiracy theory... but we've already been through this before.

Most downtowns are not the retail 'meccas' of their respective regions... and that's okay... and how is working to create a diverse, creative, thriving downtown second-rate?

[Cadeho]

So the "market" told Hazelett, he must build a mall in Short Pump, call it the "new downtown" (which has nothing to do with the "Downtown Short Pump joke"),the area must attract new businesses unknown to Richmond and they are not allowed to open other stores elsewhere, to build an urban village to be the "new Fan" and build towers so that it can look like a real city. It said all of that?

Yes downtown Richmond will be second-rate with what you seem to think is ok. If you can't compete, pack your bags and go home seems to be the way you're going about our downtown. We can never be what we were so let's just be happy with what we are instead of what we can be. You know as long as there is this thread and there is anything being built in Short Pump, while Henrico aims to change its affiliation from Richmond, as long as Hazelett's in office, and as long as lemmings follow the pack out to Short Pump, I am going to scream bloody hell over everything wrong with this inside-out city everyone is so complacent and giddy about having. I guess whatever downtown Richmond gets will be the scraps and crumbs thrown from the big house's table and Richmonders have to be so gracious it's even getting a speck. Let's all rejoice over our nothing and just accept that we will never be. It's ok that we'll never be. Whatever happened in the past that created out new landscape is 100% justified. Whatever the "market" says is God's will and shall never be questioned. Bow down to the status quo if you want. I will be waiting for the day Short Pump meets its destruction as the new Sodom and Gomorrah.

[D_C]

You cannot have a downtown without a Main Street.

Which one of those roads out that way will ultimately be renamed?

[Cadeho]

Possibly one of the WBV streets.

[wrldcoupe4]

So the "market" told Hazelett, he must build a mall in Short Pump, call it the "new downtown" (which has nothing to do with the "Downtown Short Pump joke"),the area must attract new businesses unknown to Richmond and they are not allowed to open other stores elsewhere, to build an urban village to be the "new Fan" and build towers so that it can look like a real city. It said all of that?

Yes downtown Richmond will be second-rate with what you seem to think is ok. If you can't compete, pack your bags and go home seems to be the way you're going about our downtown. We can never be what we were so let's just be happy with what we are instead of what we can be. You know as long as there is this thread and there is anything being built in Short Pump, while Henrico aims to change its affiliation from Richmond, as long as Hazelett's in office, and as long as lemmings follow the pack out to Short Pump, I am going to scream bloody hell over everything wrong with this inside-out city everyone is so complacent and giddy about having. I guess whatever downtown Richmond gets will be the scraps and crumbs thrown from the big house's table and Richmonders have to be so gracious it's even getting a speck. Let's all rejoice over our nothing and just accept that we will never be. It's ok that we'll never be. Whatever happened in the past that created out new landscape is 100% justified. Whatever the "market" says is God's will and shall never be questioned. Bow down to the status quo if you want. I will be waiting for the day Short Pump meets its destruction as the new Sodom and Gomorrah.

No, the market indicated to Forest City who partnered with Pruitt that the location would be a good one for a mall. The shopping center next door (not the mall) is called Downtown Short Pump. If you've actually seen it, you'll know it's only a "downtown" in name. A movie theater, Barnes and Noble, etc and parking lots do not constitute a downtown. Your over the top anger should be directed at the very retailers that you beg to see downtown. They are the ones with the set pro formas on where to open stores (which you still don't believe) and who don't see downtown as a good investment. It's not Hazelett or people who choose the suburbs. And the fact that the progress downtown is completely brushed off as "second-rate" and "nothing" only because it doesn't have the same retailers that are out in Short Pump or wherever is completely ridiculous. Just as a name of a shopping center doesn't make a downtown, neither do the establishment of chain stores on Broad Street. We're making an incredibly diverse downtown for all sorts of people to enjoy all sorts of things... when you're done with the Short Pump obsession thing, perhaps you can help.

[Cadeho]

No, the market indicated to Forest City who partnered with Pruitt that the location would be a good one for a mall. The shopping center next door (not the mall) is called Downtown Short Pump. If you've actually seen it, you'll know it's only a "downtown" in name. A movie theater, Barnes and Noble, etc and parking lots do not constitute a downtown. Your over the top anger should be directed at the very retailers that you beg to see downtown. They are the ones with the set pro formas on where to open stores (which you still don't believe) and who don't see downtown as a good investment. It's not Hazelett or people who choose the suburbs. And the fact that the progress downtown is completely brushed off as "second-rate" and "nothing" only because it doesn't have the same retailers that are out in Short Pump or wherever is completely ridiculous. Just as a name of a shopping center doesn't make a downtown, neither do the establishment of chain stores on Broad Street. We're making an incredibly diverse downtown for all sorts of people to enjoy all sorts of things... when you're done with the Short Pump obsession thing, perhaps you can help.

The shopping center by the name of Downtown Short Pump has nothing to do with this. It has nothing to do with the locals' joke about SHort Pump. The developers said it would be a new downtown just as WBV developers planned their new Fan. Besides you are thinking of traditional 1700s-early 1900s sense of downtowns. Short Pump, with our car-influenced society, is this century's version of downtown. I have issues with the retailers too especially Circuit City and Saxon Shoes who both started downtown and turned their backs on their own mother. Hazelett's not innocent in this either. He pointed the way and lead the cavalry. But I understand that you buy into the things those people at your work tell you. Break the mold! Don't let downtown Richmond suffer the fate of chains of barbershops, hair and nail salons, pawn shops, clubs where gunfire is a regular guest, thugwear stores (as Joey puts it), and fodder and filth that already call downtown home. Your market geniuses say those are just fine for our downtown. They cater to the right people, those poor folks who have to catch the bus, live in the projects, and try to make minimun wage. I guess all is perfect Coupe. Maybe I should just accept your version of downtown Richmond. and be comfortable with what we have and what we they tell us should be. Why should I argue anymore for something better? Forgive me for foolishing thinking Richmond deserves better.

[wrldcoupe4]

Putting words in my mouth just to help you try to justify some distorted version of reality doesn't help. To say that I'm personally okay with things like violent clubs is insulting at best.

I never said the status quo was okay. I said we're moving forrrrrwarrrrd in making downtown a better place. There's still plenty to do. As the population downtown grows, more businesses open up shop, billions of dollars in investment continue to flow in, downtown will become a more vibrant place. That's my version of downtown. So, like I said, we're working toward the creation of an incredibly diverse downtown for all sorts of people to enjoy all sorts of things... when you're done with the Short Pump obsession thing, perhaps you can help too.

[Cadeho]

I advised you not to let downtown become the collection of stores and places I described, I didn't say you were okay with violent clubs. But you are okay with whatever firms and such say, why defend them? With those formulas and such, they can legally deny thousands of people business and they do just that. It's like Jim Crow lite. And you say we're moving forward, ok I'll give you that, just as continental drift is moving us forward. Break the mold and think differently and never settle is all I ask. It's not a risk unless you think it's a risk. We could create something grand, but it seems no one wants that. That money spent out there could be spent to spruce up all of downtown but no one seems to really want it. I'll help when they give me a place to help.