CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Magnolia Park Town Center

[whitehourseview]

<< I'm all for everyone having opinions gman, but yours are by far the least consistent on this forum. You literally speak in both directions at once and then throw in some other new ones, which dilutes your own credibility. I'm growing tired of it.>>

From your post to god's ear.

This board has become a place where self promotion and post count seem to have taken center court.

Agreed, it's hard to even lurk sometimes.

[Spartan]

This board has become a place where self promotion and post count seem to have taken center court.

Indeed. Some forumers are more guilty of it than others.

As has been stated before at length in this forum, the addition of the workers does not "make" the site, it merely enhances it enough to attract a different level of leasing client. This site could work as a simple Power Center, which would still add traffic. At least this way, buildings are going up as well as out, and uses are being mixed instead of segregation of uses, which is true sprawl.

As for the developer, spending $10 million or so for a new buiding isn't exactly thief. And I sure a hell hope he puts something at County Square that is worth money, because it will be adding jobs, services and taxes. You can call it a steal, but I prefer to call it a win-win.

If you are contending that the absence of the County workers will prevent this development from happening, then yes it does make the site. I don't agree that 1,000 workers adds anything significant to the site other than traffic and a guaranteed source for lunch. I want to be clear that I'm not questioning the site's design or purpose. Overall it has good intensions and is definitely a better way to grow/redevelop. However, the developer has his eyes on County Square, and the County is practically drooling over the idea of a new building. It does seem like a good trade, but I think the County could do better if they sat on the site just a while longer while they build a new tower downtown or wherever else they want to build it. Its true $10 million on a new building isn't cheap, but the return on that investment makes it worth the effort. I suspect it will be a figure far greater than $10 million.

[GvilleSC]

The 1,000 county workers are helping the developers to reach their goal of creating a downtown like atmostphere. They're going to create that daytime population and generate some foot traffic at lunch time. The residences at the site will create the night time population and the retail will create the development as a destination. Therefore I DO think that the county offices are a necessity to help the developers acheive their objective. If the county didn't move, then the developer would have to sell an entirely different vision. This could result in some tenants not desiring to locate at Magnolia. But I don't think the County is THE selling point and why businesses would chose MP, no. They add to the equation, yes.

[vicupstate]

Indeed. Some forumers are more guilty of it than others.

If you are contending that the absence of the County workers will prevent this development from happening, then yes it does make the site. I don't agree that 1,000 workers adds anything significant to the site other than traffic and a guaranteed source for lunch. I want to be clear that I'm not questioning the site's design or purpose. Overall it has good intensions and is definitely a better way to grow/redevelop. However, the developer has his eyes on County Square, and the County is practically drooling over the idea of a new building. It does seem like a good trade, but I think the County could do better if they sat on the site just a while longer while they build a new tower downtown or wherever else they want to build it. Its true $10 million on a new building isn't cheap, but the return on that investment makes it worth the effort. I suspect it will be a figure far greater than $10 million.

The already announced tenants, Rooms to Go , Costco, etc. committed to the site before the County building was in the picture. The Hotel(s) were only interested once an office component was added to the mix.

Remember that $10mm is only to get the land, the developer still has to demolish the buildings, that would be a least a million I would think, and then he is only left with a vacant piece of land. He still has to invest millions more to build it out.

If there were no profit potential, he wouldn't do the project.

As for 'waiting', I have learned that opportunity only knocks once. If this opportunity is left on the table, the County might be at the Square for another decade. The entire University Ridge/Church Street corridor could transform just as West End is now doing, if the County Square eyesore ie removed and replaced with something positive. I'm getting too old to wait another decade for progress. Doing so, certainly hasn't helped Columbia reach it's potential.

[Spartan]

Remember that $10mm is only to get the land, the developer still has to demolish the buildings, that would be a least a million I would think, and then he is only left with a vacant piece of land. He still has to invest millions more to build it out.

If there were no profit potential, he wouldn't do the project.

Exactly! My point is not that there is no proffit in it. Thats not even the issue anyway. I could care less how much the developers make. My concern is that the government should be stewards of the very progress it claims to be making. Moving its offices to the most congested stretch of road in the State doesn't exactly scream progress to me.

Doing so, certainly hasn't helped Columbia reach it's potential.

Huh? I think youre going to need to explain that one further.

[distortedlogic]

Exactly! My point is not that there is no proffit in it. Thats not even the issue anyway. I could care less how much the developers make. My concern is that the government should be stewards of the very progress it claims to be making. Moving its offices to the most congested stretch of road in the State doesn't exactly scream progress to me.

Huh? I think youre going to need to explain that one further.

Your point is well taken Spartan. Woodruff rd is functionally not the best site for them. However, I agree wholeheartedly with the others, that this could be a very unique opportunity. It could easily be a decade or two or three before another proposal for Univ Sq comes around. It is not too many times that cities get a chance to redevelop a parcel of that size, on the edge of their CBD. The possibilities are nearly endless, especially if the parcel is expanded to include the Cameron Barkely land, and Health Dept land. This is a chance to reshape Greenville's DT, grow it, and add another major puzzle piece (or pieces). The negatives pale in comparison.

[g-man430]

Why does it matter to you, since you don't live in Greenville County? For that matter, why don't you post on Anderson topics more frequently, since that is the county you claim? I ask these questions rhetorically, of course. I'm all for everyone having opinions gman, but yours are by far the least consistent on this forum. You literally speak in both directions at once and then throw in some other new ones, which dilutes your own credibility. I'm growing tired of it.

The reason I change my opinions so much is because nobody agrees with my initial assumptions on things. I change it to make everybody happy and so they'll quit bashing me. Like if I said the Cliffs is a stupid development and sprawl that cuts down trees, everybody would start bashing me just because they disagree with me.

[vicupstate]

^^ Exactly. Waiting for a deal that is perfect in every aspect, will leave you with nothing in the end. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

Columbia takes decades to complete any major project. North Main, The Greenway, you name it. Rather than doing North main in phases, they keep waiting for more money, meanwhile the cost increases on the entire thing. A decade later, nothing has been done and they are still chasing 100% funding for 100% of the project, before they will turn one spade of dirt.

[whitehourseview]

The reason I change my opinions so much is because nobody agrees with my initial assumptions on things. I change it to make everybody happy and so they'll quit bashing me. Like if I said the Cliffs is a stupid development and sprawl that cuts down trees, everybody would start bashing me just because they disagree with me.

Hope that works out for you in life.

[Spartan]

The reason I change my opinions so much is because nobody agrees with my initial assumptions on things. I change it to make everybody happy and so they'll quit bashing me. Like if I said the Cliffs is a stupid development and sprawl that cuts down trees, everybody would start bashing me just because they disagree with me.

What a world we would live in if we all lived to make everyone else happy. You are the cause of your own frustrations gman, and there is only one person who can fix that.

My advice: Respect and be respected.

Columbia takes decades to complete any major project. North Main, The Greenway, you name it. Rather than doing North main in phases, they keep waiting for more money, meanwhile the cost increases on the entire thing. A decade later, nothing has been done and they are still chasing 100% funding for 100% of the project, before they will turn one spade of dirt.

Not quite the same, but I see your point. Thanks for backing up your previous statement with some facts.

What sort of capacity is in the Landmark Building? Didn't someone say that its mostly empty right now? I wonder if GC Government could fit in there?

[whitehourseview]

The Landmark building has been mostly empty for several years.

[distortedlogic]

I have heard and read numerous times that it was 65-70% filled. Hardly "mostly empty"

[Spartan]

How large is it (in terms of sq ft) compared to County Square?

That may not be the most attractive building in the world, but it can certainly be an anchor for pedestrian activity on that end of North Main. Greenville County would be a good fit, assuming the space issues can be worked out. It may actually be too small. Anyway- just something to think about.

[g-man430]

I have heard and read numerous times that it was 65-70% filled. Hardly "mostly empty"

Same here. Remember that article about Greenville and Spartanburg being short of Class A office space?

[goodbye]

How large is it (in terms of sq ft) compared to County Square?

That may not be the most attractive building in the world, but it can certainly be an anchor for pedestrian activity on that end of North Main. Greenville County would be a good fit, assuming the space issues can be worked out. It may actually be too small. Anyway- just something to think about.

I believe it would definitely be too small. The Landmark Building has less than 370,000 square feet, divided among 25 floors. I can't imagine County Square being any less than that. They most likely want more room if anything. I'll have to let someone with more knowledge on the subject answer factually though.

[mallguy]

County Square is around the same size- perhaps smaller, but above 300,000 sf.

The Landmark Building is a horrible specimen of architecture, whose unsightliness is magnified by it being the tallest and most visible building from a lot of approaches into downtown.

Horrible as well that Daniel/Fluor left downtown for a suburban campus, leaving that building behind and nothing better to replace it downtown.

[Spartan]

The discussion of the Landmark building's architecture had gotten us way off topic, so I moved it here:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=36169

[g-man430]

A person from another forum had this to say:

Sorry for double posting, but what is going up a the site of the former Greenville Mall? I was at BCBG the other day and they said they are going to put a store in the new development there but i'm not familiar with it. Will it have highrise condos along with the (Im guessing..) retail?

Edited March 9, 2007 by g-man430

[distortedlogic]

Ok, I confess, I need help with the "BCBG" part.

[g-man430]

Ok, I confess, I need help with the "BCBG" part.

I think it's this: http://www.bcbg.com/spring2007/index.php

[g-man430]

Here is some information about this BCBG store: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Azria

Edited March 9, 2007 by g-man430

[GvilleSC]

interesting.

[goodbye]

The nearest store I could locate is in SouthPark, Charlotte.

Edited March 9, 2007 by Skyliner

[Mr. Downtown]

Forget BPS or Cabela's or BCBG.

I want an Ikea.

Edited March 9, 2007 by Mr. Downtown

[breed]

As for 'waiting', I have learned that opportunity only knocks once. If this opportunity is left on the table, the County might be at the Square for another decade. The entire University Ridge/Church Street corridor could transform just as West End is now doing, if the County Square eyesore ie removed and replaced with something positive. I'm getting too old to wait another decade for progress. Doing so, certainly hasn't helped Columbia reach it's potential.

The county square property is situated with such great visibility, and is such an awkward space for the county offices, I think it's only a matter of time until something happens. Unlike most however, I don't think this is the only opportunity for the county to make a move.

Large scale parcels with the phenomenal visibility of the county square site rearely exist, especially when you consider that it is immediately adjacent to the hottest part of downtown. It seems to me that the county could leverage the site into a better situation than a tower at the Greenville Mall.