CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Magnolia Park Town Center

[goodbye]

...It seems to me that the county could leverage the site into a better situation than a tower at the Greenville Mall.

That is true. A tower could be built on a small portion of its current site. The main thing we all would like to see is the current setup completely redeveloped into a mixed-use, high density extention of downtown. Anyone else think the new development should include a historical element, such as naming the property, "Furman Heights?" It is a key vista overlooking the CBD and the West End.

[whitehourseview]

That is true. A tower could be built on a small portion of its current site. The main thing we all would like to see is the current setup completely redeveloped into a mixed-use, high density extention of downtown. Anyone else think the new development should include a historical element, such as naming the property, "Furman Heights?" It is a key vista overlooking the CBD and the West End.

Whatever eventually goes into a county square location would have to have some type of geographic integration with the Governor's school. Also, I've always thought the county war memorial is in an awkward spot in that parking lot, and would prefer a better location for it. I know its county, but seems as if Piazza de Bergamo would be a better location.

[vicupstate]

The county square property is situated with such great visibility, and is such an awkward space for the county offices, I think it's only a matter of time until something happens. Unlike most however, I don't think this is the only opportunity for the county to make a move.

Large scale parcels with the phenomenal visibility of the county square site rearely exist, especially when you consider that it is immediately adjacent to the hottest part of downtown. It seems to me that the county could leverage the site into a better situation than a tower at the Greenville Mall.

You have to remember that the only reason that this swap 'works' is because the buyer already has another large scale project (Magnolia) in the city limits underway. Both of those things have to be present in order for the 'TIF' numbers to generate sufficient funds to pay for a new building for the county. Once Magnolia is built, how soon would ANOTHER major shopping center (in the city) need to be built? It could be awhile.

That is true. A tower could be built on a small portion of its current site. The main thing we all would like to see is the current setup completely redeveloped into a mixed-use, high density extention of downtown. Anyone else think the new development should include a historical element, such as naming the property, "Furman Heights?" It is a key vista overlooking the CBD and the West End.

For the county to build new, it would have to front the money. Translation: tax increase. Not too likely with this council, given they haven't raised taxes for ANY reason in like 15 years.

Holding out for the 'perfect deal' will leave us with County Square for ten more years, maybe more.

[GvilleSC]

I want something that is urban on the County Square site. I have a feeling that what we will get will be a little too suburban for the placement-- i.e. parking lots. I'm keeping my fingers crossed though. I hope the developer and architect have knowledge of Greenville and how this is going to tie into the West End.

[distortedlogic]

The county square property is situated with such great visibility, and is such an awkward space for the county offices, I think it's only a matter of time until something happens. Unlike most however, I don't think this is the only opportunity for the county to make a move.

Large scale parcels with the phenomenal visibility of the county square site rearely exist, especially when you consider that it is immediately adjacent to the hottest part of downtown. It seems to me that the county could leverage the site into a better situation than a tower at the Greenville Mall.

Yet this has not happened so far, despite this "phenomenal visibility." Univ Square has been there for what, decades (including the old mall)? You are right about it being a rare site, and that is precisely why this opportunity cannot be missed.

Like GvilleSC, I too have a small fear that we might end up with "just another project," but lets hope for something that is creative, unprecedented, attractive, dense, tall, and that will take DT to another level!

[g-man430]

^^^It will be mixed-use. Don't worry.

[gs3]

The 1,000 county workers are helping the developers to reach their goal of creating a downtown like atmostphere. They're going to create that daytime population and generate some foot traffic at lunch time. The residences at the site will create the night time population and the retail will create the development as a destination. Therefore I DO think that the county offices are a necessity to help the developers acheive their objective. If the county didn't move, then the developer would have to sell an entirely different vision. This could result in some tenants not desiring to locate at Magnolia. But I don't think the County is THE selling point and why businesses would chose MP, no. They add to the equation, yes.

Right on target! I can do some research, but I believe when this same development group created Downtown Dadeland in Miami, they added some county functions/jobs (though not 1,000), to help create that daytime population. Magnolia Park will be Greenville's first true "town center" and daytime jobs are an important part of any "town center" to distinguish them from mere shopping centers. Take a look at VB Town Center.

[jarvismj]

Per Greenvilleonline.com, Greenville County government NOT moving to Magnolia Park TC. Article here.

"But Greenville County’s office complex at County Square won’t be a part of the development because the county is no longer interested in moving the office complex to the former mall site as it had discussed with the site’s former owner, said Butch Kirven, County Council chairman."

I guess that this means that there will come another shot at getting county square into a tower downtown, and redevelopment at University Ridge.

Edited March 21, 2007 by jarvisj3

[Greenville]

What?!?

[NYTransplant]

Didn't see that coming!

What's next? Are the current plans down the drain?

[gs3]

I suspect this is what John B. was stating was brewing with retail on Woodruff (see the Journal Thread). This is actually GREAT news for the Magnolia Park site.....a property that sold for 37 million a little over a year ago has now sold for 52 million to a HIGH END development company. See the link to Menin and look at "Downtown at the Gardens"

http://www.menindevelopment.com/index.cfm?...9&x=9371100

This site is going to be great!!! Notice that the Rooms to Go and Costco properties were sold separately. This can now be totally high end shopping. John B. knows whats going on.

On County Square, I thought that was a go, so bummer on that. Looks like we'll have old ugly County Square hanging around a little longer.

Edited March 21, 2007 by gsupstate

[crescentmoon]

The county offices staying downtown doesn't surprise me. The move to "Magnolia Park" was always pretty iffy. I'm more concerned with the change of ownership of the former Greenville Mall property. I wonder what changes that means as far as the previously planned Magnolia Park Town Center.

[linkerjpatrick]

Per Greenvilleonline.com, Greenville County government NOT moving to Magnolia Park TC. Article here.

"But Greenville County’s office complex at County Square won’t be a part of the development because the county is no longer interested in moving the office complex to the former mall site as it had discussed with the site’s former owner, said Butch Kirven, County Council chairman."

I guess that this means that there will come another shot at getting county square into a tower downtown, and redevelopment at University Ridge.

I for one am happy about this. I'm glad they are going to stay centrally located.

[NYTransplant]

I suspect this is what John B. was stating was brewing with retail on Woodruff (see the Journal Thread). This is actually GREAT news for the Magnolia Park site.....a property that sold for 37 million a little over a year ago has now sold for 52 million to a HIGH END development company. See the link to Menin and look at "Downtown at the Gardens"

http://www.menindevelopment.com/index.cfm?...9&x=9371100

This site is going to be great!!! Notice that the Rooms to Go and Costco properties were sold separately. This can now be totally high end shopping. John B. knows whats going on.

On County Square, I thought that was a go, so bummer on that. Looks like we'll have old ugly County Square hanging around a little longer.

Now THIS I like.

[mallguy]

So Bell Tower Mall lives on- love that beige brick and the former Woolco.

The County Square site can still be redeveloped, with outparcels added around the former mall, but I think this really will delay a full-scale redevelopment of the site.

Re: Meinin: one of its centers looks upscale, so there is hope, but the rest consist of just typical strip mall stores, such as Sears Grand, CVS, etc., including the following, which features "fine merchants" such as McDonald's:

Shoppes at Jupiter features an 18-screen state of the art Cobb Theatre featuring all stadium seating and full digital sound. Cobb is complemented by a Staples office supply and computer store, Beall's department store, Washington Mutual Bank, a number of restaurants including McDonald's, Chili's, Cold Stone Creamery (ice cream), and other fine merchants offering unique goods and services.

Edited March 22, 2007 by mallguy

[gs3]

^ Do a little more indepth reading on Menin and their current strategy of developments. Read up on Downtown at the Gardens.

I'm sure I'd pay 52 million to stick a CVS, Staples and other "unique merchants" on a site.

Edited March 22, 2007 by gsupstate

[mallguy]

^ Do a little more indepth reading on Menin and their current strategy of developments. Read up on Downtown at the Gardens.

I'm sure I'd pay 52 million to stick a CVS, Staples and other "unique merchants" on a site.

I was impressed by Downtown at the Gardens and did a Google, Hoover's and Lexis search on Meinin, so I read 10+ articles on the company.

Urban Retail Properties spent $50MM+ redeveloping Greenville Mall in 1995 so just spending a lot of money on a project doesn't mean it will turn out well. Meinin clearly can build an upscale center, based on Downtown at the Gardens (luring Strip House is BIG!), but it also can and does build mediocre developments.

[gs3]

OMG! Did any of you guys listen to the audio portion to the right of this article????? There is another whole NEW development that is being planned by McChesney out of Atlanta for the area behind Whole Foods at The Point. This area is on fire.

Click on the audio to the right in the link

http://greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...SINESS/70321013

Edited March 22, 2007 by gsupstate

[gs3]

Urban Retail Properties spent $50MM+ redeveloping Greenville Mall in 1995 so just spending a lot of money on a project doesn't mean it will turn out well. Meinin clearly can build an upscale center, based on Downtown at the Gardens (luring Strip House is BIG!), but it also can and does build mediocre developments.

You made an excellent point and helped clarify mine. Thank you mallguy! A developer spent 50 million several years ago to redo an EXISTING mall. Menim spent more (52 million) for VACANT LAND. Once the center is built, who knows what the total dollar amount could be. 52 million for vacant land......we are on to something great here!

[DealMan]

Well I am interested to see what Menin has planned for the site. They had a lot of meomentum going with all the retailers and the County Square. It will be interesting to see their plan, and how they intend to capitalize on the extra investment they are making. I am sure they are wishing that they had the 15 acre Costco land back so they could get really creative with that. Given their relationships and The Shopping Center Group's relationships they really ought to be able to get some great retailers on the site. Greenville is on the national radar screen in a big way now!

[gs3]

Given their relationships and The Shopping Center Group's relationships they really ought to be able to get some great retailers on the site. Greenville is on the national radar screen in a big way now!

^ Agreed

This just keeps getting better. Greenville News has updated the article, and here is what I love......Menin approached Gulfside and asked to buy the property / development. From what I hear, Menin will keep the Magnolia Park name, but drive it more upscale than Gulfside had planned. They are planning to make this a version of Downtown at the Gardens and also want to incorporate the attitude of downtown Greenville. Great update from the GV News.

http://greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...SINESS/70321013

[Greenville]

^ Agreed

This just keeps getting better. Greenville News has updated the article, and here is what I love......Menin approached Gulfside and asked to buy the property / development. From what I hear, Menin will keep the Magnolia Park name, but drive it more upscale than Gulfside had planned. They are planning to make this a version of Downtown at the Gardens and also want to incorporate the attitude of downtown Greenville. Great update from the GV News.

http://greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...SINESS/70321013

This sounds great! Is anyone else convinced, as I am, that "Magnolia Park" will definitely be a station on our BRT route? Who knows, with the timing of Menin's purchase they might make their plans accordingly.

This might also mean less of a parking lot and more urbanism than we would've seen with the original plan.

[distortedlogic]

I don't know guys. I saw the website pics, and they do look pretty good, but I am not too sure I like this yet. I will have to wait to see plans and renderings before I can really make an opinion for sure, but so far, I think I would easily take the old plans. This sounds like it willl just be more of the same that we already have on Woodruff, namely endless lines of restaurants and stores. Only these would be out of 80% of the populations reasonable price ranges. I think I would prefer the mixed use approach with housing, like the other plans called for. Also, I am very disappointed about the county offices. Who knows, in a few years, maybe someone else will take a stab at university ridge, but it could be decades. So far, the bandwagon has passed me by on this one.

[Spartan]

This sounds great! Is anyone else convinced, as I am, that "Magnolia Park" will definitely be a station on our BRT route? Who knows, with the timing of Menin's purchase they might make their plans accordingly.

This might also mean less of a parking lot and more urbanism than we would've seen with the original plan.

I am glad to see that the County made the right move. As for the comment above, I would expect that it will be on the route too. Obviously this is long term, but it woul dbe much cheaper to go ahead with the infrastructure now.

[mallguy]

I'll wait to see what retailers are announced before making up my mind on this. Clearly Meinin can do a high-end center, and I'd think a similarly desirable center would be very possible, but only one of the centers listed on its website seems really upscale, while the others don't seem particularly fancy. Either way, it'll be better than a dead mall.

Just combining an announcement about (1) a shopping center (2) in Greenville (3) touted as "upscale" by a developer (even if the developer also considers stores such as McDonald's "fine") makes some people instantly insist that ultra-upscale stores are coming, but I haven't yet seen a firm basis for that kind of conclusion.

Meinin should pay Rooms to Go not to open a store at the site so that the space could be used for a higher-end store.

Edited March 22, 2007 by mallguy