CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Magnolia Park Town Center

[Greenville]

As I said, the shopping center will probably do fine financially since it will attract rednecks, and there are plenty of them around (although the east side of Greenville doesn't have many).

 

However, the first thing that some visitors to Greenville will see will be a Toby Keith bar, a Rooms to Go and the like, given the shopping center's proximity to the I-85 and I-385 interchange.  That's a bad first impression to make to people visiting Greenville and considering bringing jobs and investment there.  Why don't we just put a big strip club and a car junkyard along I-85?

 

I had no idea who Toby Keith was until I looked him up on Wikipedia.  Surely he's a good guy, but the demographic is not what I'd want Greenville to project.  Upper-income people are generally not attracted to that (you may be the exception and I'll give you a pass since you're European; I have studied and worked in France, Austria and Belgium and I recall being intrigued by things that were novelties to me but that the natives didn't care for).

This development, while important, does not define Greenville. Anyone who visits and defines the area based on this shopping center (which isn't bad at all) is a moron. For me, it's not that this development is embarrassing or anything. Most cities would kill to have these tenants in a development. It's just frustrating for most of us since thus isn't the town center we were promised years ago.

I don't think this will only attract "rednecks." There are plenty of refined people with money to spend who will spend it at Cabela's.

[mallguy]

True, people won't define Greenville based solely on Magnolia Park.

 

However, Magnolia Park in the context of Greenville will be as if a house on East Parkins Mill Road had a bunch of junked cars stacked in the front yard.  It doesn't define the neighborhood, although it is one thing that will be noticeable.

[clt29301]

This development, while important, does not define Greenville. Anyone who visits and defines the area based on this shopping center (which isn't bad at all) is a moron. For me, it's not that this development is embarrassing or anything. Most cities would kill to have these tenants in a development. It's just frustrating for most of us since thus isn't the town center we were promised years ago.

I don't think this will only attract "rednecks." There are plenty of refined people with money to spend who will spend it at Cabela's.

I hope you are joking.........most cities would kill to have these tenants?  Cheddars, Rooms to Go, a Honky Tonk and fancy bait & tackle shop????  That is a very arrogant thing to say.  Almost sounds as if you think Greenville should be above all others.

 

I agree that this project has gone from a cool promise to stark reality but, I doubt most cities would care if they ever saw a TobyKeithUSA or Cabelas. 

[mallguy]

Magnolia Park tenants just aren't a fit for the location.  Formerly Parisian, Williams-Sonoma, Harold's, etc....and the demographics haven't changed, but now the site is getting "rural"-type stores.  And Greenville Mall had a very nice Drexel Heritage furniture store...now the location is getting a Rooms to Go.  Nope.  They should be going on Poinsett Highway as part of its redevelopment, not a prime spot at the I-85/I-385 interchange.

 

Greenville certainly isn't above all others, but it has so many good aspects to it that may be canceled out in visitors' minds.  People from the Northeast, for example, EXPECT to see nothing but hicks in South Carolina, as wrong as the perception is.  But having some of Magnolia Park's stores visible on the trip to downtown from the airport will just fulfill that view. Disheartening, especially as Greenville's East Side doesn't really have hicks, so the image that's being created is misleading.

 

(Plus that massive mound of dirt that was piled in the middle of where Greenville Mall used to be for so long...speaking of junked cars!)

Edited January 20, 2013 by mallguy

[vicupstate]

Fort Worth gave $30-40 million in incentives to get Cabela's. Albeit it was a bigger store than the one coming here.

 

A Philly suburb (Berks County)paid a similair amount. An Austin suburb paid 61 million.

 

Cabela's and Bass Pro are both heavily sought after by communities nationwide, and they do NOT have a negative redneck reputation. There are plenty of affluent hunters and fisherman. Just because it is not your cup of tea, doesn't make it redneck/unsophisticated.

[mallguy]

Cabela's and Bass Pro are both heavily sought after by communities nationwide, and they do NOT have a negative redneck reputation. There are plenty of affluent hunters and fisherman. Just because it is not your cup of tea, doesn't make it redneck/unsophisticated.

Well, the Cabela's demographics, at least for its website, skew older and less-educated...thus redneck/unsophisticated:

 

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/cabelas.com

[clt29301]

Fort Worth gave $30-40 million in incentives to get Cabela's. Albeit it was a bigger store than the one coming here.

 

A Philly suburb (Berks County)paid a similair amount. An Austin suburb paid 61 million.

 

Cabela's and Bass Pro are both heavily sought after by communities nationwide, and they do NOT have a negative redneck reputation. There are plenty of affluent hunters and fisherman. Just because it is not your cup of tea, doesn't make it redneck/unsophisticated.

Your numbers are a little overstated and are mixed.  According to the Texas Gov, "Gov. Rick Perry, also on hand for the announcement, said the project was worth the $600,000 grant it received from the Texas Enterprise Fund.

"We don't differentiate between companies -- whether they're retailers or not -- when it comes to job creation," he said. "We have a lot of skill levels in Texas, and we want to provide jobs for all of them."" $600k from a grant program is a lot different than $40m which was in fact used as interstate improvements related to the area where Cabelas located.  Same for the Austin location. 

 

As I said before, cities would not kill for these stores, it is not as if Magnolia Park is the hot new development that can pick and chose a store.  What started out as a promising plan has been reduced to a cheap knock off of Concord Mills. 

[btoy]

People from the North East don't have to come to SC to see hicks, they have plenty of their own.

 

But last I checked outdoor sports, hunting, fishing etc,. were not activities strickly enjoyed by us common folk.  And condisering the price of much of the gear at stores likely cobela's you've got to be pretty well off to afford much of it.

 

Personally, I could care less if we ever get those really high end stores becuase no matter how much money I have I wont be wasting it on $400 jeans or $600 pairs of shoes.

[gman430]

If only Crescent Place, the Point, and Dillard Creek Commons/Creekside Village wouldn't have died we would have several town centers in this area with or without Magnolia Park. I wouldn't feel so bad then about Menin's new tenants and site plan for this site also.

Edited January 21, 2013 by gman430

[vicupstate]

40 million in infrastructure that was required ONLY because the center was being built, does not count as infrastructure for the general population.

[mallguy]

I would assume that most incentives given to Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's are "tax increment financing" ones, meaning that sales taxes that the store pays are just allocated towards specific expenses related to the store, such as infrastructure, rather than going to the general pool of tax revenues (or another specific use).

 

[clt29301]

I would assume that most incentives given to Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's are "tax increment financing" ones, meaning that sales taxes that the store pays are just allocated towards specific expenses related to the store, such as infrastructure, rather than going to the general pool of tax revenues (or another specific use).

That is exactly what was provided, not too different than what other large centers may get.  This notion that Greenville is a chosen city that retailers gravitate towards over others is laughable.

[vicupstate]

TIFs are most often property taxes, which since diverted cannot be used to fund schools, police, fire, sanitation etc. that an increased tax base would normal provide. These cities are forgoing that to get these stores and the spinoff they can create. 

 

I personally oppose giving incentives to retailers, as opposed to more mainstream economic development.  But for a city to invest that kind of money to get Cabela's or Bass Pro, is prima facia evidence that said companies are desired and sought after.

[gman430]

It is indeed true that Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops are two of the most sought after retailers among cities and counties within the country. This is due to the amount of jobs and tourism visitors they bring in which equals a lot of new revenue for those areas: http://www.icsc.org/srch/sct/sct0606/cover_retailer.php

[scgubers]

That is exactly what was provided, not too different than what other large centers may get.  This notion that Greenville is a chosen city that retailers gravitate towards over others is laughable.

I am fairly certain that funding was not provided through a TIF. In order to recieve TIF monies the city has to set up a TIF district. The city, if I recall correctly, only has three, and they are all in the downtown area. A tax increment financing fund cannot be created for one retailer, rather it must be available to an entire area. If Cabela's did receive incentives it would most most likely be in the form of tax breaks. In tax increment financing a developer is given a sum of money from the bond that is associated with the district. Something that could not have happened because Cabela's is not in a TIF district. So no, that is not what was provided. 

 

Linked is the city TIF district map. 

http://www.greenvillesc.gov/omb/forms/budget07/MAP%20-%20TIFDistricts.pdf

Edited January 21, 2013 by scgubers

[Clemsongrad1]

GMan, You seem to have great intel. If they really add a hotel, some office and a couple of more unique restaurant and entertainment venues to the mix, we might actually have something....Downtown is only "OK" IMHO and Greenridge offers nothing in terms of night-out options. Cabelas visit (I actually like to browse in those kinds of stores for clothes, not guns!!), then a movie and then dinner.....drinks and live music at Toby Keith's. Where else is that happening within a couple of hours from here....

Holly, I would like to take you for some drinks and live music at Toby Keith's when it opens.  You got a pic?

[clt29301]

It is indeed true that Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops are two of the most sought after retailers among cities and counties within the country. This is due to the amount of jobs and tourism visitors they bring in which equals a lot of new revenue for those areas: http://www.icsc.org/srch/sct/sct0606/cover_retailer.php

What audience is seeking Cabela's?  If you ask a county finance manager, he loves them because of the perceived tax benefits.  If you ask the folks at Chastain Park, the answer will be filled with expletives.  You do see incentives provided to centers which may have a Cabalea's or BPS in addition to other shops, similar to Yellow Mall in Gaffney.  The interchange is way different today than before the mall.  $40-60m would provide a good number of infrastructure improvements to the area. 

 

But, it is also interesting to look at where BPS and Cabela's locate. The majority of thier stores are on the outer edges of Tier 1 markets and in the cities of many Tier 3 markets.  There simply is not a market for these stores within the major cosmopolitan cities.  So, back to the original post which started this topic, no, most cities would not kill for these stores.

[gman430]

Something like this (maybe not with as high end retail tenants) would have been perfect for this development: http://www.santanarow.com/files/sr_retailleasingbrochure_12-13.pdf

[Holly]

Holly, I would like to take you for some drinks and live music at Toby Keith's when it opens.  You got a pic?

Not sure you could handle me, big boy!! I am guessing the identity of Hans from his posts. I think I met him at a Holiday party.

[vicupstate]

I am fairly certain that funding was not provided through a TIF. In order to recieve TIF monies the city has to set up a TIF district. The city, if I recall correctly, only has three, and they are all in the downtown area. A tax increment financing fund cannot be created for one retailer, rather it must be available to an entire area. If Cabela's did receive incentives it would most most likely be in the form of tax breaks. In tax increment financing a developer is given a sum of money from the bond that is associated with the district. Something that could not have happened because Cabela's is not in a TIF district. So no, that is not what was provided. 

 

Linked is the city TIF district map. 

http://www.greenvillesc.gov/omb/forms/budget07/MAP%20-%20TIFDistricts.pdf

 

No one said that GREENVILLE did a TIF. It did not. The point was that several other cities have, because THEY wanted those stores and were willing to pay the piper to get them.

 

Apparently Greenville got for free what many cities paid dearly for. Something to be proud of.

[scgubers]

No one said that GREENVILLE did a TIF. It did not. The point was that several other cities have, because THEY wanted those stores and were willing to pay the piper to get them.

 

Apparently Greenville got for free what many cities paid dearly for. Something to be proud of.

Ok makes sense. It seemed though that citi was saying that thats what was provided to Cabela's here with the statement "This notion that Greenville is a chosen city that retailers gravitate towards over others is laughable." 

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[Clemsongrad1]

Something like this (maybe not with as high end retail tenants) would have been perfect for this development: http://www.santanarow.com/files/sr_retailleasingbrochure_12-13.pdf

[Clemsongrad1]

...

Edited January 22, 2013 by Clemsongrad1

[gman430]

Nice try gman but did you read the demographics? Greenville is not sniffing 560k people within 5 miles and $110k hh income. Mixed-use town centers typically need denser populations to work. Lets face it in Greenville we live and die by our cars. I have seen town centers fail in certain locations around the country because us lazy folks would prefer to go to a strip mall and park right in front versus parking in a deck and walking. You were smart to suggest that Gucci and Faragamo would be a long shot but according to a friend of mine in NY who does retail leasing tenants such as Crate & Barrell, H&M and Brooks brothers won't have Greenville on their radar for a while.

Ummm...Brooks Brothers is coming to Greenville. They're slated to open in September. H&M isn't high end at all either. You can find their stores in small to midsize metro areas like Huntsville and Winston-Salem.

Edited January 22, 2013 by gman430

[vicupstate]

If Menin didn't think Gville was able to support a Town Center they wouldn't have proposed one from the beginning.  The only reason that it isn't going to be a Town Center is the probable accomodations of Cabela's.  My guess is Cabela's wanted both interstate visibility and unobstructed visibility from Woodruff Rd.  Given those demands and the way the already built parts are done, a Town Center is difficult to achieve.  Only Menin knows for sure, though.