CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Magnolia Park Town Center

[goodbye]

The notion that a "town center" style retail development would not survive in Greenville is absolutely ridiculous considering Downtown's incredible success and even the fact that Haywood Mall requires shoppers to park and then walk a significant distance from store to store.

[awp69]

Wow, come back after a few days and can't believe the bickering in this thread. Yes, Magnolia Park isn't what everyone may have hoped for. Sure, I'd rather see something like the Cheesecake Factory over Toby Keith's (ironically, there are fewer locations of Toby Keith's and a fair amount of them are in the North (Michigan, Minnesota, Massachusetts -- so don't know if you could genuinely call it just a "redneck" bar.)

But to say that people are going to get the wrong impression of Greenville from Magnolia Park is ludicrous. People that I know of when they come to Greenville are surprised to see how much it isn't just a hick town in the South. Heck, go to Greenridge and you'll see shops like Talbot's and White House Black Market (both of which were from the formerly upscale Greenville Mall).

Honestly, it's our downtown that's the pride of the area. EVERYONE who I've taken downtown from other areas (I myself am a former Yankee) are incredibly impressed and genuinely love the area.

To compare Magnolia Park to a bunch of rusty cars stacked up on someone's front lawn is wrong. Again, I'm not saying I'm not disappointed in the way it's turning out, but it's far from being an eyesore for the city (at least from a tenant perspective). I, like many others, are more concerned about how much more horrible the traffic is going to be on Woodruff Road. To me, that's the worst part of this city's planning is seemingly having no realization of what it's going to do to traffic. On a typical Saturday, there's already traffic backed up all the way from the light at TGIF all the way down to Roper Mountain Road at times. Then, you've got the mess between I-385 and I-85 (mostly due to Greenridge).

People visit and if they get any impression, they'll probably be thinking that the traffic on Woodruff Road is just as bad as big Northern cities or suburban Atlanta. Thankfully, our interstates don't suffer nearly as much. But to put most of the recent retail growth in one basket on Woodruff without considering the traffic is just plain stupid. And really, it began long ago before Magnolia Park and Greenridge. Yes, they widened the road what like 15 years ago. But look what's happened since.

Edited January 23, 2013 by awp69

[russwd]

Well said.

[gs3]

Wow.  And I thought Cheesecake Factory brought out the "bickersons". 

This project has turned out horrible, IMO.  Menin has screwed Greenville for a buck and they should take the brunt of the criticism.  BUT, why has Greenville allowed this?  I remember a time and certain people in power in Greenville that would have only allowed this project to forward if done right.  Greenville has certainly changed....and not for the better, IMO.

[awp69]

Wow. And I thought Cheesecake Factory brought out the "bickersons".

This project has turned out horrible, IMO. Menin has screwed Greenville for a buck and they should take the brunt of the criticism. BUT, why has Greenville allowed this? I remember a time and certain people in power in Greenville that would have only allowed this project to forward if done right. Greenville has certainly changed....and not for the better, IMO.

Despite whether the project turned out to be a "Town Center" or not, Greenville officials bear the brunt of criticism for screwing the pooch on Woodruff Road. Traffic still would have been an issue even if the original plans had moved forward. I know Woodruff Road is the "hot" place to be for retailers (even if Menin struggled to get this project rolling). But I just can't see how traffic couldn't have been a big concern before allowing this project to move forward in the first place. And IMO, it's too late to do anything about it. Any project to do anything to widen or do some other traffic management along Woodruff Road would be an absolute nightmare.

The city has made some good decisions about downtown and extending rejuvenation efforts into the West End, etc. -- even the proposals to give some new life to the Haywood area. Seems like the slow-burning projects on Verdae haven't really taken off. But the lack of forethought in regards to Magnolia and even Greenridge (God, that one entrance idea must have came from a mad man), is just sad.

BTW, just another thought, does anyone know how Ruth's Chris Steakhouse is doing? Menin dropped the ball on getting them for Magnolia Park, but I'm not sure they're doing so well being attached to a hotel and, generally speaking, off the map compared to other restaurants in the area. If they aren't doing well, I'm not sure if they'd be willing to put more money in to relocate to Magnolia or not. It would just be a hit to lose a higher end restaurant all together due to the timing of this project.

Edited January 23, 2013 by awp69

[vicupstate]

About the only city official that has changed is the city manager, who takes orders from council. Can you be more spe cific? Every city has congested c orridors. I would love to live in utopia, but i will settle for the real world.

[gman430]

Going to Planning Commission next month: http://www.greenvillesc.gov/PlanningZoning/PlanningApplications/Applications/2013/FEBRUARY/PlanningCommission/02-14-2013/FDP-13-24-1025WoodruffRd-Cabela's.pdf

[GvilleSC]

Going to Planning Commission next month: http://www.greenvillesc.gov/PlanningZoning/PlanningApplications/Applications/2013/FEBRUARY/PlanningCommission/02-14-2013/FDP-13-24-1025WoodruffRd-Cabela's.pdf

I want Greenville to gain this tax revenue. However, this plan is awful. 

[mallguy]

I can say with 100% certainty that Apple and Z Gallerie are in intense negotiations to be in the VILLAGE AREA of this development, NOT the big box end. (From a direct source) For anyone not familiar with this development, it's basically two developments within one....a big box area and an upscale village area.....separate areas...

However, if people don't realize Magnolia is smack in the middle of an excellent demographic, then they don't understand Greenville. Also, if people don't realize that retail has evolved from developing based on high end vs low end to developing based on what companies can pull shoppers vs those that don't pull, then they don't fully understand 2007 retail. Think of all the new developments around the nation that have both Target and Saks Fifth Avenue, or Costco and Bloomingdales. Hmmm, I frequent a mall in Dallas that has an IKEA just steps away from Neimans (and IKEA, while cool, is far, far, far, far, far from high end.....it was developed along the same philosophy as VW's.......for commoners.....cost effective and open to all).

Just a few months ago, people thought Pleasantburg at Laurens was dead, and suddenly, wow, Fresh Market is building a new store at that location! Greenville is full of surprises!

What happened to all of these upscale retailers?

And what happened to gs3's move to Dallas?

Edited January 24, 2013 by mallguy

[gman430]

I am getting a very strong feeling that there will not be a Bass Pro Shops or Cabela's at Magnolia, BUT there might be an Orvis opening, which basically fills the same retail niche that both Bass and Cabela's would offer, to a certain degree. The nearest Orvis locations to Greenville are ones in Atlanta and Raleigh.

I also have a reallly strong feeling that a Sephora store, a Lucky Brand store, a Delia's store, a Sur La Table store, a Tommy Bahama store, and maybe even a Steve Madden store will be joining the mix possibly?

Why I have these sudden hunches beats me!? http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/whistling.gif

I think it is pretty much a fact that their will not be a Cabela's or a Bas Pro Shop at Magnolia Park. There will be a Starbucks However.

I disagree.

The main development (separate from the big box end) is targeting "upper end" (NOT high end) stores. It is targeting such upper end stores and restaurants as Z Gallerie, Cheescake Factory, Apple, REI, Maggiano's, Smith & Hawkins, Lucky Brand, Anthropologie, Urban Outfitters, etc, etc.

Could have fooled me.

[mallguy]

We ought to give out awards to posters:

 

(1) Best Predictions of Stores at Magnolia Park

(2) Worst Predictions of Stores at Magnolia Park

Same for downtown, Haywood, etc.

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but the 1995 Greenville Mall DID have plenty of those "nicer" type stores!  If retailers in 1995 thought that the site was worth their investments, why not now?  (Despite the mall failing, the individual stores whose chains are still around are mostly still around, and nearby.)

Edited January 24, 2013 by mallguy

[ausrutherford]

We ought to give out awards to posters:

 

(1) Best Predictions of Stores at Magnolia Park

(2) Worst Predictions of Stores at Magnolia Park

Same for downtown, Haywood, etc.

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but the 1995 Greenville Mall DID have plenty of those "nicer" type stores!  If retailers in 1995 thought that the site was worth their investments, why not now?  (Despite the mall failing, the individual stores whose chains are still around are mostly still around, and nearby.)

 

Because most of the higher end stores moved to Greenridge, Haywood mall, or downtown.

[mallguy]

Because most of the higher end stores moved to Greenridge, Haywood mall, or downtown.

There are plenty of them still available and looking for sites. 

Von Maur, apparently an upscale department store, is eyeing the Carolinas for expansion, according to some news articles that I saw, after starting a Southeastern business in Atlanta and also moving into Birmingham. It could certainly have been a prospect.

[ausrutherford]

There are plenty of them still available and looking for sites. 

Von Maur, apparently an upscale department store, is eyeing the Carolinas for expansion, according to some news articles that I saw, after starting a Southeastern business in Atlanta and also moving into Birmingham. It could certainly have been a prospect.

 

Looks like they would want an actual mall. Simon would have to expand for that, and I dont see that happening unless the city can persuade them to add on.

 

Id like to see a Nordstrom's and Neimann Marcus too, though not sure in Greenville could handle all that.

Edited January 24, 2013 by ausrutherford

[mallguy]

Von Maur has stores in a few lifestyle centers.

 

If I were a department store real estate person, Haywood would be on my short list of sites, but with the way Haywood Road is slipping, I'd be a little careful about doing a 20-year investment there.

[ausrutherford]

Von Maur has stores in a few lifestyle centers.

 

If I were a department store real estate person, Haywood would be on my short list of sites, but with the way Haywood Road is slipping, I'd be a little careful about doing a 20-year investment there.

 

I think the Babies R' Us side could be totally redone and it could fit in there.

[gs3]

What happened to all of these upscale retailers?

And what happened to gs3's move to Dallas?

Well Smallguy, since you seem to understand retail, why don't you explain it to us. Menin screwed Greenville. Simple. Still curious to hear your explanation of how any new retail would "never" come to Pleasantburg and Laurens, when I stated a year prior that retail was moving there and then yep, Fresh Market opened there. As I recall, you said your family had real estate in the area and they would never see new retail opening there. Wow, your family sorta missed the boat. That's OK Smallguy, we love your humor anyway. Cheers! Love ya lots, you cute thang!

Ummmm, by the way, who says I haven't moved. Psssss.....hint.....the internet can be accessed from anywhere in the world.....amazing, right?

So about Magnolia, the topic, I'm chomping at the bit to hear YOUR educated views on the future of the development? All ears hear....fill me in....please! Suggestions on how to improve this debacle? What will this development mean for Greenville? If you were Menin, what would YOU do? How can this development live up to its original plan? Waiting to hear!

Edited January 24, 2013 by gs3

[mallguy]

gs3, anyone is welcome to scroll through your posts and mine and to see how our respective promises and/or predictions about Magnolia Park turned out.

 

Anyone is also welcome to look at all of my prior posts about the Pleasantburg Drive/Laurens Road intersection and see how my predictions worked out.

 

For my views on the future of Magnolia Park, I think that the center will probably do OK financially, which I've already posted. 

 

The difference between my posts and yours, however, is that unlike you, (1) I don't insist that certain things in retail real estate are definitely going to happen, as if they were set in stone, unless they actually are, and (2) I don't make promises of specific retailers coming to a specific place unless they actually are.

 

If you've already moved to Dallas, why haven't you posted at all in the Dallas forum? 

Edited January 24, 2013 by mallguy

[btoy]

I disagree.

 

HA LOL!!!  Perfect example of why not to make definitive statements.  In my defense at that time my company was involved with a development at 85 and 14 that had Bass Pro committed....and then Wachovia failed and everything went to crap.  But also in 2007 we didn't expect to be finding out the retailers 6 years later. 

[GvilleSC]

I don't understand the incentive of bringing up what was posted six years ago. A lot can, and has, changed during that time. What's the point?

[Lib]

I'm mostly a lurker on UP, but I have had enough of this petty arguing. I come here to read positive things about Greenville not hear people attacking each other. I'm not saying that criticism isn't appropriate, it's definitely part of making our city better — but can we please stop with the personal attacks?

 

One of the things I hear said about Greenville often is that good things happen here because people (in politics mostly) are willing to put aside their differences for the good of the city. I would love for that to be true in an online forum as well.

 

A few months ago I was looking for day trips around Greenville and came across a UP thread from 2007. The tone was remarkably different. I would love to get back to the real issues and for Greenville UP to be a place where enemies aren't formed just because someone states an idea we might disagree with.

[gman430]

HA LOL!!! Perfect example of why not to make definitive statements. In my defense at that time my company was involved with a development at 85 and 14 that had Bass Pro committed....and then Wachovia failed and everything went to crap. But also in 2007 we didn't expect to be finding out the retailers 6 years later.

Haha...yep. I was just joking around though so no defense needed. 2007 was much different than it is today.

Edited January 24, 2013 by gman430

[KoreyReynolds]

hmmmm

 

• http://www.greenvillesc.gov/PlanningZoning/PlanningApplications/Applications/2013/FEBRUARY/PlanningCommission/02-14-2013/FDP-13-24-1025WoodruffRd-Cabela's.pdf

 

Very interesting renderings for Magnolia

[ausrutherford]

No trees in front of Toys R Us?

 

One good thing is that the rear of the Toys R Us space is that they are presentable and look good. Not your typical store rear.

[gman430]

You will have the opportunity to voice your comments at the Public Hearing. Alternatively, you may submit written comments to: Marie McClendon, Planning & Development Office, PO Box 2207, Greenville, SC 29602, by fax at 864.467.4510, or by email at [email protected]. Written comments must be received by the Monday before the Hearing in order to be given adequate time for consideration by the Commission before the hearing. Comments received after that Monday will be provided to the Commission at the Hearing. Please reference the application number (FDP-13-24) and include your name and address on all correspondence. All comments will be made part of the public record.

579 parking spots and 171,000 square feet of retail space are proposed. Planning Commission meeting is February 14th at 4:00pm at city hall: http://www.greenvillesc.gov/PlanningZoning/PlanningApplications/Applications/2013/FEBRUARY/PlanningCommission/02-14-2013/FDP-13-24-1025WoodruffRd-Cabelas.pdf

Edited January 31, 2013 by gman430