CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Magnolia Park Town Center

[crescentmoon]

Folks, you are all talking about Magnolia Park as if it is the same development that was announce months ago. It is not. The property has changed hands. This could very possibly be a very different development than we originally expected. Other than the previously sold out parcels, the site map everyone is using for reference is likely to be pointless.

I know for a fact that some of the businesses we are assuming will be at Magnolia, based on this site plan, are instead talking (very seriously) to other area developments. This would indicate to me that any possible agreements that may have existed with the original developers of Magnolia Park did not transfer with the sale of the property. This would not be surprising or unusual considering no building has begun.

In all likelihood, the new property owner will develop their own plan and negotiate with their own tenants.

[Greenville]

Folks, you are all talking about Magnolia Park as if it is the same development that was announce months ago. It is not. The property has changed hands. This could very possibly be a very different development than we originally expected. Other than the previously sold out parcels, the site map everyone is using for reference is likely to be pointless.

I know for a fact that some of the businesses we are assuming will be at Magnolia, based on this site plan, are instead talking (very seriously) to other area developments. This would indicate to me that any possible agreements that may have existed with the original developers of Magnolia Park did not transfer with the sale of the property. This would not be surprising or unusual considering no building has begun.

In all likelihood, the new property owner will develop their own plan and negotiate with their own tenants.

I wonder if downtown could pick up a few of these...

[mallguy]

Folks, you are all talking about Magnolia Park as if it is the same development that was announce months ago. It is not. The property has changed hands. This could very possibly be a very different development than we originally expected. Other than the previously sold out parcels, the site map everyone is using for reference is likely to be pointless.

I know for a fact that some of the businesses we are assuming will be at Magnolia, based on this site plan, are instead talking (very seriously) to other area developments. This would indicate to me that any possible agreements that may have existed with the original developers of Magnolia Park did not transfer with the sale of the property. This would not be surprising or unusual considering no building has begun.

In all likelihood, the new property owner will develop their own plan and negotiate with their own tenants.

I agree. I'd think that both the retailers and Gulfside would have outs in their contracts allowing both parties to walk away in case of big changes in the situation.

I'd expect the developer would want to kick out the retailers it has on the site plan and on the part it bought but keep most of the restaurants. Rooms to Go and Shoe Carnival already didn't help the upscale trend, but now having a DSW and a fitness equipment place further increase the non-upscale component. Conversely, those restaurants and less so the Borders are going to be big draws for Magnolia Park. If someone can find retail with the drawing power that those restaurants have (in addition to the Costco, which would typically have very high sales per square foot), this center can really take a big chunk of business away from Haywood.

That's a BIG BIG BIG fumble for Haywood not to be getting those restaurants. How could Haywood be sitting idly by and watching some big-name attractions head to another shopping center? I seem to recall that the '95 expansion seemed to happen around the same time as the Greenville Mall redevelopment, so neither center just sat still then.

Edited March 30, 2007 by mallguy

[Greenville]

I don't view Haywood Mall and Magnolia Park Town Center as direct competitors. Sure, some people will be interested in both, but it sounds like Magnolia Park is going after a slightly different demographic. Greenville is large enough to support both developments very well. The retail scene in Greenville has changed (read: improved) a great deal in the last 10 years. We aren't likely to ever see only one dominant retail center again.

[mallguy]

I don't view Haywood Mall and Magnolia Park Town Center as direct competitors. Sure, some people will be interested in both, but it sounds like Magnolia Park is going after a slightly different demographic. Greenville is large enough to support both developments very well.

I think you're right.

Those restaurants are typically ones that would be found in upscale shopping centers and at least the Cheesecake Factory is a major draw. Costco is also a big draw and I'd think it would appeal to the same upper-middle income demographic that the restaurants would. The movie theater is also a big draw, although it didn't save Greenville Mall (do people shop in the same trip when they go to the movies?). REI and Borders are also big plusses.

Thus I think the pieces are in place for a home-run shopping center if the developer can just fill the other space with A-grade retailers. Rooms to Go and a fitness equipment place are not what is needed. I'd say A-grade clothing stores would help, but what other upper mid-market mall-type chains that would come to Greenville aren't already there, other than Brooks Brothers?

Since I'm a department store person I wouldn't shop much at Magnolia Park but plenty of people could.

Edited March 30, 2007 by mallguy

[Galley]

All I want is an Apple Store.

[chastogville]

ok looked at the site plan, I find it very odd that a Cheesecake Factory and Maggiano's would locate next door to a Mcdonalds...considering their current locations are in very upscale malls or centers. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see all of this happen however I don't see this as being an upscale center as anticipated. Hope they prove me wrong...

[gs3]

There is a HUGE amount of misinformation being thrown around about this development, and some seems intentional. Costco and Rooms To Go ARE NOT, I repeat ARE NOT part of Menin's development. These two parcels are being developed on their own.....were sold off....not being developed by Menin. Menin is doing a town center development. Will it be upscale, we hope, at least for Greenville.

Anyone still talking about Harold's being demolished, guess what, it moved, it's just down the road. Parisian is no longer a company period, in any city.

Would be great if we could live in the here and now and hope for the best. My short history in Greenville and it's growth spurt and the insider info I have on this development, tell me it will be unlike anything Greenville has seen to date.

Folks, you are all talking about Magnolia Park as if it is the same development that was announce months ago. It is not. The property has changed hands. This could very possibly be a very different development than we originally expected. Other than the previously sold out parcels, the site map everyone is using for reference is likely to be pointless.

I know for a fact that some of the businesses we are assuming will be at Magnolia, based on this site plan, are instead talking (very seriously) to other area developments. This would indicate to me that any possible agreements that may have existed with the original developers of Magnolia Park did not transfer with the sale of the property. This would not be surprising or unusual considering no building has begun.

In all likelihood, the new property owner will develop their own plan and negotiate with their own tenants.

This is an excellent point!

I do know for fact however, a few of the leases did transfer to Menin.

[crescentmoon]

ok looked at the site plan, I find it very odd that a Cheesecake Factory and Maggiano's would locate next door to a Mcdonalds...considering their current locations are in very upscale malls or centers. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see all of this happen however I don't see this as being an upscale center as anticipated. Hope they prove me wrong...

I believe that some of the businesses on this outdated site plan were wishful thinking. It is not unusual for a developer to list these kinds of "wishes" inorder to attract the kind of interest they want from both the commercial and the public sector. A resent example of this was the development at Garlington and Pelham roads. Although Target had never committed to this project and was also in active negoiations with other developments, this project was publicly refered to as the "SuperTarget on Pelham" because it helped the developers cause to suggest a popular tenant.

[Greenville]

I believe that some of the businesses on this outdated site plan were wishful thinking. It is not unusual for a developer to list these kinds of "wishes" inorder to attract the kind of interest they want from both the commercial and the public sector. A resent example of this was the development at Garlington and Pelham roads. Although Target had never committed to this project and was also in active negoiations with other developments, this project was publicly refered to as the "SuperTarget on Pelham" because it helped the developers cause to suggest a popular tenant.

Based on what others here have mentioned, the tenants rumored for Magnolia Park are very realistic. Have you heard differently from what they reported to us, or are you just speculating?

[Cap'n Prowler]

ok looked at the site plan, I find it very odd that a Cheesecake Factory and Maggiano's would locate next door to a Mcdonalds...considering their current locations are in very upscale malls or centers. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see all of this happen however I don't see this as being an upscale center as anticipated. Hope they prove me wrong...

Our upscale shopping center here in Columbus, OH has a McDonalds, as well as a Cheesecake Factory, integrated in it. Trust me, it works, and the developer won't let it be your average truck stop McDonalds either. The developers will want to attract families with children, as well as your middle class folks who try to fit in with the upper classes by shopping for the overpriced name brands, but don't necessarily want to max out their cards when it comes time to eat. It makes sense to have a variety of dining options, as there will be a variety of shoppers here.

[Greenville]

I am thinking that the McDonald's is already there, on one of the outparcels adjacent to this site. If so, it won't be new construction as part of Magnolia Park Town Center. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

[linkerjpatrick]

A good example would be the McDonald's near Southpark in Charlotte. That however seems to work better in a more ornate or inner part of town. Magnolia is right next to the Interstate and for the most part you see a lot more of a utilitarian looks along Interstates especially in this region where the norm is a waffle house (which I love) every so many miles. The colonial looking McDonalds near Southpark fits with that area. I'm not sure what they might do with the one at Magnolia if at all but then again it's on the roadside and not in the center of the complex so I wonder if the developer would even care and even if they did they might not have jurisdiction of the McDonalds unless it was part of the purchase deal. Was the McDonalds owned by Greenville Mall Management? I know they also had one in the food court as well.

[mallguy]

There is a HUGE amount of misinformation being thrown around about this development, and some seems intentional. Costco and Rooms To Go ARE NOT, I repeat ARE NOT part of Menin's development. These two parcels are being developed on their own.....were sold off....not being developed by Menin. Menin is doing a town center development. Will it be upscale, we hope, at least for Greenville.

Anyone still talking about Harold's being demolished, guess what, it moved, it's just down the road. Parisian is no longer a company period, in any city.

Would be great if we could live in the here and now and hope for the best. My short history in Greenville and it's growth spurt and the insider info I have on this development, tell me it will be unlike anything Greenville has seen to date.

This is an excellent point!

I checked the Menin Development website and the developer's own language and marketing materials show both Costco and RTG as part of Magnolia Park, even if Menin doesn't own those two sites. Did you not check the developer's website, or are you stating that the developer is wrong about its own project?

From www.menindevelopment.com:

"Magnolia Park Town Center, formerly the Greenville Mall, is currently being transitioned from an enclosed mall to a 676,000 square foot, open-air shopping center that will include offices and a hotel. Current tenants include Sports Authority and Regal Cinemas, with an additional contract finalized to construct a Rooms to Go." The Costco is also included on the site plan available on the Menin Development website under "Magnolia Park Town Center".

So if the developer is including the RTG and Costco in its marketing, I think they are part of the overall complex, even if the developer doesn't own the sites, just as mall anchor stores are considered part of the same shopping center, even if owned by entities other than the mall developer. The Costco and Rooms to Go are really close to the Menin development and appear to be integrated into it and are treated as part of it by the developer.

We're familiar with Harold's and Parisian and their fates, both in Greenville and elsewhere. I appreciate that you have a "short history" in Greenville and were a VP at Parisian, but lots of others here have long histories in Greenville and lengthy careers in retail real estate. We know, for example, that Parisian stores will be rebranded as Belk ones by Q3 2007.

Edited April 2, 2007 by mallguy

[goodbye]

I believe that some of the businesses on this outdated site plan were wishful thinking. It is not unusual for a developer to list these kinds of "wishes" inorder to attract the kind of interest they want from both the commercial and the public sector. A resent example of this was the development at Garlington and Pelham roads. Although Target had never committed to this project and was also in active negoiations with other developments, this project was publicly refered to as the "SuperTarget on Pelham" because it helped the developers cause to suggest a popular tenant.

Crescentmoon, obviously the site plan posted above is obsolete - that we all know and accept. What you should realize is that the new developer, like the previous developers, has plans to make this an "upscale" lifestyle center. I believe it can happen and be successful, if the proper components are added. You have to understand just how much change is soon going to take place in that area with the massive Verdae development, The Point, The South Financial Group campus, Millennium Campus, and CU-ICAR - all in the same general vicinity. Consider also that residential units are planned for most of these developments. That adds up to a drastic change from the current setting we see. The area will be much more dense and full of business executives, researchers, and etc.

For added excitement, here is a portion from an e-mail sent to G-man from the president of Menin Realty Services (the new developer of Magnolia Park Town Center):

...We are now evaluating all potential tenants for this wonderful development and will formulate the leasing strategy, which we expect to be upscale...

[DealMan]

I think that we all realize that the plan will definitely change with Menin Development entering the arena. I am sure they will add density to the retail and other uses, especially with the county square relocation not moving forward currently.

In regard to specific tenants, and who might be moving forward or not, I think the only tenants that we know for sure are Costco, Rooms to Go, Regal, and Sports Authority. I think that they will continue to move forward with a majority of the tenants that Gulfside Development was proposing, and perhaps position them in a more effective lineup.

I am guessing they are not announcing any other tenants at this time, due to the site plan changes, and the impact that is having on their existing deals.

[mallguy]

If I were Haywood Mall, I would be racing to grab any mall-type stores that would fit Greenville's demographics but that are not yet in town. Greenville's retail center of gravity is slowly shifting towards Woodruff Road and Haywood needs to jump while it can to cement its market dominance for mall-type stores. I don't see another department store anchoring a new wing, but a new outdoor wing would be fine.

I've been looking at mall directories of shopping centers that are anchored by Costco to see what kinds of stores are often co-tenants. Http://www.randhurstmall.com, curiously enough by Greenville Mall's old developer, is one.

Edited April 2, 2007 by mallguy

[Greenville]

If I were Haywood Mall, I would be racing to grab any mall-type stores that would fit Greenville's demographics but that are not yet in town. Greenville's retail center of gravity is slowly shifting towards Woodruff Road and Haywood needs to jump while it can to cement its market dominance for mall-type stores. I don't see another department store anchoring a new wing, but a new outdoor wing would be fine.

I've been looking at mall directories of shopping centers that are anchored by Costco to see what kinds of stores are often co-tenants. Http://www.randhurstmall.com, curiously enough by Greenville Mall's old developer, is one.

Hasn't Haywood Mall been getting tenants that are new to Greenville for years now?!? It seems that in the last few years, this is especially the case. I really don't see what the concern is about Haywood. It's the state's largest mall, it's in an area of town that is still very good (and growing), and they just recently completed some nice upgrades. They are regularly adding new, quality tenants. Maybe I have been going to the wrong malls when I'm not in Greenville, but Haywood stands out to me as a really nice mall. It's not Lenox Square, but it is a quality regional mall. It's not going anywhere.

Simon seems to be a good manager, and I'm sure they aren't resting on their laurels. With that said, I do not view positives for other Greenville retail centers (e.g., Magnolia Park Town Center) as negatives for Haywood Mall. I think it's important to remember that Greenville is a large, healthy, growing metro that deserves more than one large regional mall (Haywood) and one lifestyle center (Greenridge). There is plenty of room for Magnolia Park (and probably another sizeable development as well).

[mallguy]

Hasn't Haywood Mall been getting tenants that are new to Greenville for years now?!? It seems that in the last few years, this is especially the case. I really don't see what the concern is about Haywood. It's the state's largest mall, it's in an area of town that is still very good (and growing), and they just recently completed some nice upgrades. They are regularly adding new, quality tenants. Maybe I have been going to the wrong malls when I'm not in Greenville, but Haywood stands out to me as a really nice mall. It's not Lenox Square, but it is a quality regional mall. It's not going anywhere.

Simon seems to be a good manager, and I'm sure they aren't resting on their laurels. With that said, I do not view positives for other Greenville retail centers (e.g., Magnolia Park Town Center) as negatives for Haywood Mall. I think it's important to remember that Greenville is a large, healthy, growing metro that deserves more than one large regional mall (Haywood) and one lifestyle center (Greenridge). There is plenty of room for Magnolia Park (and probably another sizeable development as well).

You make good points. If I were Simon/Haywood, though, I'd want to maximize profits and market dominance. The mall hasn't expanded in 12 years- time for another wing to add new tenants. Last time when new competition (i.e., the redeveloped Greenville Mall in 1995) appeared, Haywood responded by adding a new anchor and a new wing, resulting in its victory in the last round of mall wars. Now, with 1 MM+ sf of new shopping centers recently opened and in the works, Haywood hasn't done anything other than update its interior (which it needed to do) and add some better in-line tenants (which it needed to do anyway).

Edited April 2, 2007 by mallguy

[goodbye]

...The mall hasn't expanded in 12 years- time for another wing to add new tenants.

I've been thinking the same thing for a few years now. There is plenty of room around the current building layout to create a significant addition.

[gs3]

We're familiar with Harold's and Parisian and their fates, both in Greenville and elsewhere. I appreciate that you have a "short history" in Greenville and were a VP at Parisian, but lots of others here have long histories in Greenville and lengthy careers in retail real estate. We know, for example, that Parisian stores will be rebranded as Belk ones by Q3 2007.

I'll tell the person who I know that is intimately involved with project, that a person in North Carolina with a career in "retail real estate" knows more about the project and has the leg up on them as concerns their project. They'll find it most interesting.

[mallguy]

I'll tell the person who I know that is intimately involved with project, that a person in North Carolina with a career in "retail real estate" knows more about the project and has the leg up on them as concerns their project. They'll find it most interesting.

Go ahead. As I never stated that I know more than the developers, I'll take that as a compliment, as that view would be only yours. Which one of us has stated things about Magnolia Park that are directly contradicted by Menin's own publicly-available information? Not me.

Re-read my post and the Menin Development website.

I stated that people on this board are familiar with Harold's and Parisian and that a simple review of Menin Development's website contradicts your prior posts about its development. FYI Eric Faires and I had talked in depth about Parisian's fate- does that name ring a bell?

Edited April 5, 2007 by mallguy

[Gville92]

Go ahead. As I never stated that I know more than the developers, I'll take that as a compliment, as that view would be only yours. Which one of us has stated things about Magnolia Park that are directly contradicted by Menin's own publicly-available information? Not me.

Re-read my post and the Menin Development website.

I stated that people on this board are familiar with Harold's and Parisian and that a simple review of Menin Development's website contradicts your prior posts about its development. FYI Eric Faires and I had talked in depth about Parisian's fate- does that name ring a bell?

I'm lost. what tenants are they trying to bring here? does anyone know

[gs3]

I'm lost. what tenants are they trying to bring here? does anyone know

Welcome to the forum Gville92!

The development is two developments in one.

One end is a big box area with Costco, Petco, Rooms to Go, etc.

The main development (separate from the big box end) is targeting "upper end" (NOT high end) stores. It is targeting such upper end stores and restaurants as Z Gallerie, Cheescake Factory, Apple, REI, Maggiano's, Smith & Hawkins, Lucky Brand, Anthropologie, Urban Outfitters, etc, etc.

[mallguy]

Welcome to the forum Gville92!

The development is two developments in one.

One end is a big box area with Costco, Petco, Rooms to Go, etc.

The main development (separate from the big box end) is targeting "upper end" (NOT high end) stores. It is targeting such upper end stores and restaurants as Z Gallerie, Cheescake Factory, Apple, REI, Maggiano's, Smith & Hawkins, Lucky Brand, Anthropologie, Urban Outfitters, etc, etc.

More mistakes...

OK, here are the developer's own words, from menindevelopment.com:

(And it is Smith & Hawken, NOT plural, and ending in En, not In; smithandhawken.com).

http://www.menindevelopment.com/index.cfm?...6&x=5682038

The Costco mention has been deleted since my last post, referencing Menin's development, but it's for all to see. The old menindevelopment.com website, with the Costco, might be available at web.archive.org.

Edited April 12, 2007 by mallguy