CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Magnolia Park Town Center

[RestedTraveler]

Has anybody seen the Biltmore Park Town Square just up I-26 toward Asheville? That project is what I had hoped Magnolia Park Town Center would have become. It's pretty impressive. SITE PLAN

Magnolia Park has been so slow to materialize...

Edited January 23, 2009 by RestedTraveler

[gman430]

Has anybody seen the Biltmore Park Town Square just up I-26 toward Asheville? That project is what I had hoped Magnolia Park Town Center would have become. It's pretty impressive. SITE PLAN

Magnolia Park has been so slow to materialize...

Magnolia Park will be on the same scale as Biltmore Park. Yes, the project has been slow to materalize but it is starting to move forward now.

[goodbye]

Magnolia Park will be on the same scale as Biltmore Park. Yes, the project has been slow to materalize but it is starting to move forward now.

I have serious reservations about both its scale and the notion that it is finally beginning to move forward. The scale will be far less sustainable and the timing of this supposed surge of energy in the worst economic downturn in decades is questionable.

[RestedTraveler]

Yes, forgive my skepticism, but I have my doubts about Magnolia Park Town Center as well. The scope and scale as it stands with the latest renderings are nothing like what had originally been proposed. The residential component has all but vanished and the hotel appears to have been scaled back to something that's likely more reasonable. Aside from that, the site plan appears to have slowly morphed its way from something spectacularly vibrant into something mundane...just another outdoor shopping center...yea, that's what we need.

[gs3]

I have serious reservations about both its scale and the notion that it is finally beginning to move forward. The scale will be far less sustainable and the timing of this supposed surge of energy in the worst economic downturn in decades is questionable.

Remember, the portion that is moving forward at the moment is only a small portion of shops that front Woodruff Road.....all of which were leased prior to the full blown downturn. The remainder of Magnolia is fluid and subject to change, but will remain a town center......parking garages are still planned, hotel still planned, office space still planned....all the pedestrian friendliness and landscaping.

[goodbye]

...The remainder of Magnolia is fluid and subject to change, but will remain a town center...

I trust you will be able to forgive my highly inquisitive nature at the moment, but it will become a "town center" by whose definition? Most town centers I enjoy have a healthy number of residents living in them. Unless something drastically changes with its current plan, this "town center" will presumably end up being redeveloped in a few decades, if not sooner. As is, I really dislike today's concept in many ways.

[gman430]

Yes, forgive my skepticism, but I have my doubts about Magnolia Park Town Center as well. The scope and scale as it stands with the latest renderings are nothing like what had originally been proposed. The residential component has all but vanished and the hotel appears to have been scaled back to something that's likely more reasonable. Aside from that, the site plan appears to have slowly morphed its way from something spectacularly vibrant into something mundane...just another outdoor shopping center...yea, that's what we need.

The renderings are just for the buildings next to Woodruff Road. They were scheduled to be like that since the beginning of the project. You can't say something is like an outlet center just off a site plan either. Just because the residential portion is gone now doesn't mean it can't be added back. How has the hotel been scaled back? You can't tell that just off a site plan with no information listed about it. People need to remember that this development is very complex. If one tenant changes then the whole plan has to change. I don't know about you guys, but I actually like this new plan better than the old one. It's a bigger development and takes up all of that parking in and around Hollywood 20.

Edited January 24, 2009 by citylife

[gman430]

I trust you will be able to forgive my highly inquisitive nature at the moment, but it will become a "town center" by whose definition? Most town centers I enjoy have a healthy number of residents living in them. Unless something drastically changes with its current plan, this "town center" will presumably end up being redeveloped in a few decades, if not sooner. As is, I really dislike today's concept in many ways.

Think about it this way. If they don't live in condos out on Woodruff Road then they're more liable to live in condos in downtown Greenville instead. Which would you rather have? Just because a project might not have residential doesn't mean it can't be successful. I've seen many town centers that don't have a residential component but have been very nice and successful.

Edited January 24, 2009 by citylife

[Greenville]

The renderings are just for the buildings next to Woodruff Road. They were scheduled to be like that since the beginning of the project. You can't say something is like an outlet center just off a site plan either. Just because the residential portion is gone now doesn't mean it can't be added back. How has the hotel been scaled back? You can't tell that just off a site plan with no information listed about it. People need to remember that this development is very complex. If one tenant changes then the whole plan has to change. I don't know about you guys, but I actually like this new plan better than the old one. It's a bigger development and takes up all of that parking in and around Hollywood 20.

I like the new plan much better also. Just no palmetto or palm trees, please! Our fair city is not on the freakin' coast!

Edited January 24, 2009 by Greenville

[GvilleSC]

Think about it this way. If they don't live in condos out on Woodruff Road then they're more liable to live in condos in downtown Greenville instead. Which would you rather have? Just because a project might not have residential doesn't mean it can't be successful. I've seen many town centers that don't have a residential component but have been very nice and successful.

I also like to think about it this way: If we don't have residential areas outside of downtown that are more urban and therefore transit friendly, then our transportation system will also remain in its current state. People need to be able to catch the bus or whatever may serve them AND also have a place to go. Otherwise, it's just more of the same, is it not?

I think a part of the reason that people are excited about Magnolia Park is due to the fact that it was different and something that we have never seen before in Greenville. Yea, things may very well change, but you have to admit that as of right now, another Greenridge is very disappointing compared to its original grand hype. I'm pulling for it, though.

[gman430]

I also like to think about it this way: If we don't have residential areas outside of downtown that are more urban and therefore transit friendly, then our transportation system will also remain in its current state. People need to be able to catch the bus or whatever may serve them AND also have a place to go. Otherwise, it's just more of the same, is it not?

I think a part of the reason that people are excited about Magnolia Park is due to the fact that it was different and something that we have never seen before in Greenville. Yea, things may very well change, but you have to admit that as of right now, another Greenridge is very disappointing compared to its original grand hype. I'm pulling for it, though.

That's what Verdae is for. Just because MPTC might not have residential doesn't mean it can't be transit friendly. The shoppers and office workers would make it transit friendly in itself. If the office workers and shoppers lived downtown, Verdae, or in Simpsonville instead of at MPTC, they would be more likely to use transit when they go home. If they lived at MPTC, then they wouldn't use transit to go home at all seeing how their home is located right next door to where they work and shop. CU-ICAR and Millennium Campus are the same way. It has no residential component but the workers could and would likely use transit to get home. And yes the Shops at Greenridge is a very disappointing development.

Edited January 24, 2009 by citylife

[GvilleSC]

That's what Verdae is for. Just because MPTC might not have residential doesn't mean it can't be transit friendly. The shoppers and office workers would make it transit friendly in itself. If the office workers and shoppers lived downtown, Verdae, or in Simpsonville instead of at MPTC, they would be more likely to use transit when they go home. If they lived at MPTC, then they wouldn't use transit to go home at all seeing how their home is located right next door to where they work and shop. CU-ICAR and Millennium Campus are the same way. It has no residential component but the workers could and would likely use transit to get home. And yes the Shops at Greenridge is a very disappointing development.

I think you may have clarified the issue with "That's what Verdae is for". A development will fail if it approaches anything with this mindset. I assume you're not the developer, so it's you saying this and not those who made the decision, but it could be the case. Then this brings us to the debate of 'what makes a development a success or a failure'. I believe that dollars spent on site does not automatically make it successful. There's many other factors, some of which are more important, IMO. But, this IS just a holding for the company, so their concern is with the $$ and not the lasting impact of the center.

I think we both know there are holes in your commuting point.

[gman430]

I think you may have clarified the issue with "That's what Verdae is for". A development will fail if it approaches anything with this mindset. I assume you're not the developer, so it's you saying this and not those who made the decision, but it could be the case. Then this brings us to the debate of 'what makes a development a success or a failure'. I believe that dollars spent on site does not automatically make it successful. There's many other factors, some of which are more important, IMO. But, this IS just a holding for the company, so their concern is with the $$ and not the lasting impact of the center.

I think we both know there are holes in your commuting point.

How would a development fail if it has that mindset? That is what Verdae is for. How is it not? It's going to be a urban TND development outside of downtown built along a proposed BRT/LRT line. No, I am not the developer. My guess is they scrapped the residential portion due to costs and economy. The condo market right now everywhere is at a standstill. Yes, there are holes in my commuting point. If the office workers live in Greer then the transit idea wouldn't work. Maybe the office tenants could convince their workers to live near or along the proposed transit line. Interestingly enough, the Courtyard by Marriott and Washington Square projects downtown aren't going to have residential either and nobody is complaining about that. With the housing market the way it is, these developers aren't going to put in condos just for the heck of it. There has to be demand and there isn't any of that right now in the loft/condo market.

Edited January 24, 2009 by citylife

[GvilleSC]

How would a development fail if it has that mindset? That is what Verdae is for. How is it not? It's going to be a urban TND development outside of downtown built along a proposed BRT/LRT line. No, I am not the developer. My guess is they scrapped the residential portion due to costs and economy. The condo market right now everywhere is at a standstill. Yes, there are holes in my commuting point. If the office workers live in Greer then the transit idea wouldn't work. Maybe the office tenants could convince their workers to live near or along the proposed transit line. Interestingly enough, the Courtyard by Marriott and Washington Square projects downtown aren't going to have residential either and nobody is complaining about that. With the housing market the way it is, these developers aren't going to put in condos just for the heck of it. There has to be demand and there isn't any of that right now in the loft/condo market.

I'm not saying that it will fail. I'm trying to explain to you that a development's success should not be based on money. Ultimately, yes, that matters, but the development should have a lasting positive impact on its community. Long after a developer gets their money back out of a project, that City, neighborhood, whatever is still going to have to live with that development. This shouldn't be so much about what store we'll be able to shop at in a few years. It should be about how will we be living and functioning with this overall development in 10, 20, 30 years.

As for the downtown developments that you mention, you forget a key point. Downtown is what they are striving to create at MPTC. Go back and read their original statements of intent. Downtown HAS retail, office space, public space, and residential. It is successful, too, at positively impacting the Upstate.

Edited January 24, 2009 by GvilleSC

[gs3]

I trust you will be able to forgive my highly inquisitive nature at the moment, but it will become a "town center" by whose definition? Most town centers I enjoy have a healthy number of residents living in them. Unless something drastically changes with its current plan, this "town center" will presumably end up being redeveloped in a few decades, if not sooner. As is, I really dislike today's concept in many ways.

What I was saying, was the fact there may still be residential in the end, this is not set in stone. If not however, this will still be a dense development with streets, parking garages, multi levels, pedestrian friendly plazas and sidewalks and new shopping options in buildings that will take over a current vaste sea of pavement. I see that as a good thing. Menin is doing a good job with their plans for this development. The fact that the phase about to start will be right against Woodruff Road, with parking behind is a nice start by Menin. IMHO, reading on down through post, GvilleSC heads the nail on the head about "transit friendly".......

The burden of creating a new town center lies more with the city and county......force all developments on Woodruff to be close to the road......add wide sidewalks.....bury power lines......allow fewer fast food places, fewer small 3 or 4 store developments, fewer cutouts in curbs......add pedestrian walkways over Woodruff, etc......

Menin will do an excellent job adding density to Woodruff.....the city and county need to do much more to force and support Menin type developments.

[gman430]

I'm not saying that it will fail. I'm trying to explain to you that a development's success should not be based on money. Ultimately, yes, that matters, but the development should have a lasting positive impact on its community. Long after a developer gets their money back out of a project, that City, neighborhood, whatever is still going to have to live with that development. This shouldn't be so much about what store we'll be able to shop at in a few years. It should be about how will we be living and functioning with this overall development in 10, 20, 30 years.

As for the downtown developments that you mention, you forget a key point. Downtown is what they are striving to create at MPTC. Go back and read their original statements of intent. Downtown HAS retail, office space, public space, and residential. It is successful, too, at positively impacting the Upstate.

Oh, I understand what you're saying now. Unfortunately, it is usually based on money. Developers only have so much money they can spend on projects. It's the city's, county's, and developers job to support the center after its completion.

Edited January 24, 2009 by citylife

[btoy]

I trust you will be able to forgive my highly inquisitive nature at the moment, but it will become a "town center" by whose definition? Most town centers I enjoy have a healthy number of residents living in them. Unless something drastically changes with its current plan, this "town center" will presumably end up being redeveloped in a few decades, if not sooner. As is, I really dislike today's concept in many ways.

Actually if you look at historical town centers in the south you will notice the residential is outside of the town center not in it. Look at Greer, Marion, Camden, Monroe, Thomson, Abbeville, Greenville, Anderson, etc.you will find that people lived around the town center. Now in your defense they lived within walking distance, but MPTC will have residents within walking distance when aspects of Verdae are complete.

[goodbye]

Just out of curiosity, which type of new "town center" development would everyone prefer, based on previous plans released to the public: Magnolia Park or The Point? I am trying to understand why someone who goes by the name "citylife" is unable to grasp the reality that many people prefer living and, if possible, working in downtown specifically because they have the necessary shops, restaurants, and entertainment options within a short and easy walk, without having to drive or ride anywhere. Woodruff Road needs absolutely no additional shopping, unless it consolidates into a large, very urban, mixed-use center, similar to the proposed Point development. That kind of urban design is sustainable, providing plenty of room for residents to live where they work, dine, and shop. Presently, the closest place to live near Magnolia Park is Verdae, which I would not consider an easy distance, unless a pedestrian bridge is incorporated to avoid crossing Woodruff Road. So basically we will have yet another retail mall and more suburban-esque traffic gridlock on Woodruff Road. Sounds like a sweet deal for the developers, just like the many making money on cheaply thrown together, carbon-copy subdivisions everywhere you look in the 'burbs. It gets old fast.

[gman430]

Just out of curiosity, which type of new "town center" development would everyone prefer, based on previous plans released to the public: Magnolia Park or The Point? I am trying to understand why someone who goes by the name "citylife" is unable to grasp the reality that many people prefer living and, if possible, working in downtown specifically because they have the necessary shops, restaurants, and entertainment options within a short and easy walk, without having to drive or ride anywhere. Woodruff Road needs absolutely no additional shopping, unless it consolidates into a large, very urban, mixed-use center, similar to the proposed Point development. That kind of urban design is sustainable, providing plenty of room for residents to live where they work, dine, and shop. Presently, the closest place to live near Magnolia Park is Verdae, which I would not consider an easy distance, unless a pedestrian bridge is incorporated to avoid crossing Woodruff Road. So basically we will have yet another retail mall and more suburban-esque traffic gridlock on Woodruff Road. Sounds like a sweet deal for the developers, just like the many making money on cheaply thrown together, carbon-copy subdivisions everywhere you look in the 'burbs. It gets old fast.

The Point. I never said people didn't prefer living downtown, but if everybody lived, worked, and shopped downtown then there wouldn't be as much need for mass transit. Do you want mass transit or don't you? To do that, you have to spread things out some beyond downtown. You said Verdae isn't an easy distance. It's less than a mile away which is a very short distance in terms of walking and biking. There could also be a bus line connecting Verdae to Magnolia Park. The key isn't having every single development mixed use even though most should be. The key is density. Look at downtown San Francisco. Hardly any residential but tons of office and retail/restaurant tenants. Those workers use mass transit to get to and from work and that's why it's so successful there. If it can work there, why not here? Even if residential was incorporated into MPTC, there would still be gridlocked traffic. It would be 98% of people driving there to work, eat, or shop instead of 100%. Not much of a difference at all. If you don't like what Menin has to offer then you can contact them and tell them to cancel the whole project that adds jobs and investment to this area.

Edited January 25, 2009 by citylife

[goodbye]

Actually g-man (oops, sorry for the slip ), while the traffic would not be noticeably lessened by having residential incorporated into the plan, the sustainability would certainly increase if it were to be properly integrated. There will always be a need for mass transit in a populous metro area the size of Greenville, but this development will not be the reason it suddenly improves here. I find very few (if any) reasons to be proud of the spontaneous development happening on Woodruff Road. Adding an arguably unsustainable development such as Magnolia Park will not change anything in that regard.

edit: spelling error

Edited January 25, 2009 by Skyliner

[beyonce245]

I never said people didn't prefer living downtown, but if everybody lived, worked, and shopped downtown then there wouldn't be as much need for mass transit. Do you want mass transit or don't you? To do that, you have to spread things out some beyond downtown.

1. Developing outward/ to allow for mass transportation seems kind of contradictory.

2. The proposed BRT/Light Rail near this development will never get the federal funding to make it feasible until Greenlink gets its ridership numbers up...way up so talking about it is like putting the cart before the horse

3. Who cares whether its a true "town center." Thats just the slang du jour that developers throw around to jack up the price per square foot. If you like the end result, good.

Citylife: Pop back up to the Triad pages sometime. I thought your comments there were very constructive.

[gman430]

Actually g-man (oops, sorry for the slip ), while the traffic would not be noticeably lessened by having residential incorporated into the plan, the sustainability would certainly increase if it were to be properly integrated. There will always be a need for mass transit in a populous metro area the size of Greenville, but this development will not be the reason it suddenly improves here. I find very few (if any) reasons to be proud of the spontaneous development happening on Woodruff Road. Adding an arguably unsustainable development such as Magnolia Park will not change anything in that regard.

G-man? I'm citylife. If you think the whole project should be cancelled because there isn't 100 condos in it then so be it, but I think otherwise. Instead of just looking at the mixed use aspect of projects, I try to look beyond that like at the jobs and investment it will create for the local economy. Also, only having that number of condos does nothing for the development but make it look good. To create sustainability, you would need the number of residential units the Point had proposed. If I were the developer of Magnolia Park and I had to choose between office and residential space due to money constraints, I would definitely choose the office component. You can still have sustainability even without residential space.

[gman430]

1. Developing outward/ to allow for mass transportation seems kind of contradictory.

2. The proposed BRT/Light Rail near this development will never get the federal funding to make it feasible until Greenlink gets its ridership numbers up...way up so talking about it is like putting the cart before the horse

3. Who cares whether its a true "town center." Thats just the slang du jour that developers throw around to jack up the price per square foot. If you like the end result, good.

Citylife: Pop back up to the Triad pages sometime. I thought your comments there were very constructive.

1. Not necessarily. As long as you keep the development dense as it develops outward then there would be greater need for mass transit. That's what the city is doing right now in terms of Verdae and other projects nearby. When I said spread things out, i'm not talking about putting cookie cutter houses in Laurens County.

2. LRT probably wouldn't, but I could definitely see BRT getting funding seeing how it's along a fixed line that goes through dense areas.

3. Exactly. Like I said in my previous post, having 100 condos in a development like Magnolia Park does nothing but make it look good.

Edited January 25, 2009 by citylife

[gman430]

Just received this information. Rooms To Go is the only thing that will get built right now and that's not even a done deal yet. Other spaces have not been leased enough yet to build it including retail space next to Woodruff Road. Menin is still very committed to this project. I know a lot of people are upset but please be aware that the economy is terrible right now and retailers/restaurants are not expanding. If they are expanding, they are doing it very slowly.

[mallguy]

Earlier in this thread there were comments about high-end retailers coming....what happened there? Did they withdraw? Not trying to start a war again, but an outdoor center with a Costco and a Rooms-to-Go only is NOT upscale.

Edited January 28, 2009 by mallguy