CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Magnolia Park Town Center

[GvilleSC]

A few more on that list.

Camille's Sidewalk Cafe opened downtown.

Anthropologie is actively working with Haywood.

REI is still looking at the market.

Don't expect to see Z Gallerie or Restoration Hardware anywhere. These two chains are doing poorly and shrinking (closing stores).

I didn't realize that Camille's was a chain! Does anyone know how they're doing at Piazza Bergamo? I'm sure they'll really do a bang up business once Washington Sq gets built...

[mallguy]

I see in an OLD post that the following list were expected tenants at Magnolia Park. My how time changes things...

... Anyone? Anyone? Beuller?

I think some of the initial "luxury" tenants were just wishful thinking by posters like gsupstate, for what it's worth. With a Costco, Rooms to Go, Playland USA or whatever plus the stores near the movie theater, I don't see Magnolia Park as being anything other than a mid-tier big-box center. I'm curiously awaiting more announcements, too.

FYI I saw that Greenville had 2x the nationwide average of retail space per capita. Maybe it'll take some more absorption plus more population growth for more to develop at Magnolia Park, unless some more stores move over from Haywood Road?

[gs3]

I think some of the initial "luxury" tenants were just wishful thinking by posters like gsupstate, for what it's worth. With a Costco, Rooms to Go, Playland USA or whatever plus the stores near the movie theater, I don't see Magnolia Park as being anything other than a mid-tier big-box center. I'm curiously awaiting more announcements, too.

FYI I saw that Greenville had 2x the nationwide average of retail space per capita. Maybe it'll take some more absorption plus more population growth for more to develop at Magnolia Park, unless some more stores move over from Haywood Road?

Oh yes....so wishful....I simply wanted to move to Greenville and then wish all the stores here. I'm such a wisher....bet you don't know what I wish for you smallguy??? I wish for you peace, love, JOY and HAPPINESS.

The good thing about many of these better tenants is that they have found homes in other locations within Greenville, since Magnolia has not taken off.

Let me go off and wish now.....my head is in the clouds.......wish, wish, wish.....who needs drugs when you can just wish everything.......what a wishful, wonderful, world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited May 13, 2010 by gsupstate

[Greenville]

LOL @ smallguy!

Edited May 13, 2010 by Greenville

[mallguy]

Let me go off and wish now

Please do. However, it would be better for you to spend your time doing research and getting facts right, rather than just thinking, for example, that the Laurens Road and Pleasantburg Drive intersection will be attracting throngs of tourists, or that Nordstrom gift cards on sale at Bi-Lo indicates that Nordstrom is going to anchor a luxury mall in Greenville, among other things that you've posted that have zero factual basis and haven't borne out.

[breed]

FYI I saw that Greenville had 2x the nationwide average of retail space per capita. Maybe it'll take some more absorption plus more population growth for more to develop at Magnolia Park, unless some more stores move over from Haywood Road?

That reference is misleading. It is based upon Costar's (national commercial real estate inventory database) data. While their information is relatively solid locally for Greenville, it is not as much the case in other markets. They have inventoried far more properties locally than they have in comparable markets. A good case in point, Costar's retail database for the Greenville market includes 6,900 properties. The entire Charlotte market only includes 7,100 retail properties.

[mallguy]

That reference is misleading. It is based upon Costar's (national commercial real estate inventory database) data. While their information is relatively solid locally for Greenville, it is not as much the case in other markets. They have inventoried far more properties locally than they have in comparable markets. A good case in point, Costar's retail database for the Greenville market includes 6,900 properties. The entire Charlotte market only includes 7,100 retail properties.

Good point. Costar does seem off for Charlotte, if the whole metro is taken into account- and I'd assume that Greenville's calculation would include the whole metro. (Surely Charlotte has more retail space per capita than Long Island, which is severely under-retailed.)

Can we meet each other halfway and agree that Greenville has per capita retail space higher than the national average? The 2007 Economic Census says that the average retail space per square foot is 46. Other reports I saw said 38 sf/per capital for 2005.

[breed]

Can we meet each other halfway and agree that Greenville has per capita retail space higher than the national average? The 2007 Economic Census says that the average retail space per square foot is 46. Other reports I saw said 38 sf/per capital for 2005.

Agreed.

[gs3]

Please do. However, it would be better for you to spend your time doing research and getting facts right, rather than just thinking, for example, that the Laurens Road and Pleasantburg Drive intersection will be attracting throngs of tourists, or that Nordstrom gift cards on sale at Bi-Lo indicates that Nordstrom is going to anchor a luxury mall in Greenville, among other things that you've posted that have zero factual basis and haven't borne out.

Being involved heavily in retail development, I have my facts correct. Perhaps reading comprehension should be the order of the day. I never posted that Laurens Road would receive throngs of tourist, I simply said it was not "dead" as you had posted. The recent addition of several new retailers including Fresh Market have proven the accuracy of my point. As for gift cards of retailers at grocers, simply a way a reatiler expands their business, not a sign of retailer coming to town. I believe it was another poster who "wished" on this.

If were on some crazy high and I was going to "wish" for retailers to come to a city, I'd wish for the truely unique stores like Opening Ceremony or Muji, both of which Greenville, nor Charlotte will ever see.

Cheers to you on future reading comprehension.

[mallguy]

Being involved heavily in retail development, I have my facts correct.

No, you often don't.

Unlike you, I am from Greenville, spent decades living there, and am still in town frequently. My family is- and has been- involved in real estate development in Greenville since the 1920s, and I have spent a large part of my career doing real estate-related work, from CMBS to securities offerings for a former employer of yours.

Among the things you've posted:

* Statements about your former employer, which were contradicted by its own securities filings and senior management statements

* Statements about upscale stores that would be coming to Magnolia Park; they never came

* Statements about GSP that were not correct- you didn't even read its website correctly

Among other statements of yours:

* The wonders of the Laurens Road/Pleasantburg Drive intersection

* Nordstrom would be coming to Greenville, based on your seeing Nordstrom gift cards at Bi-Lo

* And more

You constantly state things as definite fact but that are based on wishful thinking and offhand statements by people you meet in passing, such as at the grocery store. I have not seen the careful research plus first-hand knowledge of local real estate that other people on this board show, and you sneer at and deride anyone who thinks differently than you do.

Do as I and others on this board do; do your research (such as in Shopping Center Business, Chain Store Age, Southeast Real Estate Business and more) and combine careful research with first-hand knowledge of local real estate. Please?

Edited May 18, 2010 by mallguy

[gman430]

No, you often don't.

Unlike you, I am from Greenville, spent decades living there, and am still in town frequently. My family is- and has been- involved in real estate development in Greenville since the 1920s, and I have spent a large part of my career doing real estate-related work, from CMBS to securities offerings for a former employer of yours.

Among the things you've posted:

* Statements about your former employer, which were contradicted by its own securities filings and senior management statements

* Statements about upscale stores that would be coming to Magnolia Park; they never came

* Statements about GSP that were not correct- you didn't even read its website correctly

Among other statements of yours:

* The wonders of the Laurens Road/Pleasantburg Drive intersection

* Nordstrom would be coming to Greenville, based on your seeing Nordstrom gift cards at Bi-Lo

* And more

You constantly state things as definite fact but that are based on wishful thinking and offhand statements by people you meet in passing, such as at the grocery store. I have not seen the careful research plus first-hand knowledge of local real estate that other people on this board show, and you sneer at and deride anyone who stands up to you.

Do as I and others on this board do; do your research (such as in Shopping Center Business, Chain Store Age, Southeast Real Estate Business and more) and combine careful research with first-hand knowledge of local real estate. Please?

I don't know which employer you and gsupstate are talking about so i'm not going to get into that, but some of those store/restaurants slated for Magnolia Park like Apple and Ruth's Chris did come. They just went elsewhere in Greenville. I don't recall EVER seeing gsupstate say Nordstrom would come to Greenville just because their gift cards are located in grocery stores here. Ahhh...Southeast Real Estate Business; the organization that is always six months old with their information. Stick with the real retail organizations that are updated often like ICSC. Oh and all of this from a guy who was born, raised, and still lives in...you guessed it...Greenville.

Edited May 18, 2010 by citylife

[GvilleSC]

There seems to be an awful lot of the pot calling the kettle black. Shall we go back over the "failures" of the Pleasantburg Drive Master Plan because their website was no longer working..?

Edited May 18, 2010 by GvilleSC

[mallguy]

Good point re: ICSC; I think it's a great source and a great site, but gsupstate sneers at people who get facts from the Internet, so I didn't want to use that example.

Re: Pleasantburg Drive, the website- pleasantburgdrive.org- is down. EDITED TO ADD: My point was that not much had happened on Pleasantburg, despite having a plan for improvements, and that even the website had gone down. Unlike gsupstate, I'm open to criticism, and when points were made about how much has happened on Pleasantburg, I acknowledged those developments.

The upscale stores that gsupstate said would come to Magnolia Park did not do so.

And re: Laurens Road/Pleasantburg Drive, my recollection is that gsupstate raved about the urban beauty of the intersection and the area around it, and more. I question the judgment of a maker of statements like that.

Edited May 18, 2010 by mallguy

[gs3]

Not really sure what your problem is mallguy, other than the inability to read my post correctly. If you go to the off topic thead, one of my post states this:

"You are welcome to find all the current mall info you need (sales per sq foot, vacancies, etc) at www.icsc.org Do a little investigative work at the site."

You are making up the Nordstrom thing. Pleasantburg is not dead as you said it was, so you were factually not correct. Parisian was an upper moderate store marketed as upscale. I was an excutive with the company for years. The same Relativity house brand sold in Parisian was made in the same factory and sold at the same pricepoint in Proffitt's.

At this point, if you think my post do not have facts, then put me on ignore and do not read them. Simple. The beauty of the internet....choose to read what you want, BUT stop slamming me in your post.

[mallguy]

stop slamming me in your post.

If you want respect, you should also give it to others; you don't.

No, I wasn't factually wrong about Pleasantburg; I stated that not much had happened on the master plan. That's a subjective view, just like your subjective view of the Laurens Road at Pleasantburg intersection. And unlike you, I acknowledged that indeed some things had developed, so I acknowledged the views of others.

Your posts about Parisian are there, but you have edited some of them.

And the GSP airport? And the Magnolia Park stores? I can keep going.

[Birdbrain]

Why don't you folks take your little one-upmanship outside, so the rest of us can discuss the progress - or lack thereof - at Magnolia Park?

[GvilleSC]

I have a legit question-- How can someone be wrong about the tenants of a development if that development has not been built?

[gs3]

Why don't you folks take your little one-upmanship outside, so the rest of us can discuss the progress - or lack thereof - at Magnolia Park?

Thanks. Agreed.

Back to the topic. Of numerous stores that were looking at MPTC, several have signed on to other areas in the city or the 2009 recession severely limited growth of the companies.

To recap:

Apple - Under construction at Haywood

Chipotle - Opened at The Point

Trader Joes - Opening on Woodruff Road

Camille's - Opened downtown

Anthropologie - Working with Simon on Haywood

REI - Looking at the market...no location determined

Z Gallerie and Restoration Hardware....neither chain are expanding. These chains are on the "watch" list. Expect more closures.

As for the other retailers listed, no information.

[vicupstate]

What is REI? Could it go DT by any chance? Perhaps Magnolia Park's problems have been a blessing. Hayewood and DT could fill the vacuum that they haven't been able to fill.

[Birdbrain]

To recap:

Apple - Under construction at Haywood

Chipotle - Opened at The Point

Trader Joes - Opening on Woodruff Road

Camille's - Opened downtown

Anthropologie - Working with Simon on Haywood

REI - Looking at the market...no location determined

Z Gallerie and Restoration Hardware....neither chain are expanding. These chains are on the "watch" list. Expect more closures.

As for the other retailers listed, no information.

I've heard unsubstantiated, 3rd/4th/27th person rumor that Cheesecake Factory is going to be breaking ground at Magnolia this calendar year. One of those "I know a girl who's dad's brother's Army buddy is a manager..." Naturally, there's nothing on their website corroborating.

Grain of salt, I guess.

It's interesting that we haven't heard a sudden rush of "Me Too's" by stores announcing plans at Magnolia Park after Bass Pro Shops announced. Hmmmm.

[gs3]

What is REI? Could it go DT by any chance? Perhaps Magnolia Park's problems have been a blessing. Hayewood and DT could fill the vacuum that they haven't been able to fill.

Website for REI:

Most all REI stores are in big box midtown or suburban locations. Their Seattle store (flagship) is on the edge of city center at I-5. You could somewhat call it a downtown location.

I agree with you that Magnolia's problems have been a blessing to other areas of town. It has also shown how dynamic the Greenville market is, given the fact that several retailers wanted to be in Greenville and have a found a way around MPTC.

[jarvismj]

Website for REI:

Most all REI stores are in big box midtown or suburban locations. Their Seattle store (flagship) is on the edge of city center at I-5. You could somewhat call it a downtown location.

I agree with you that Magnolia's problems have been a blessing to other areas of town. It has also shown how dynamic the Greenville market is, given the fact that several retailers wanted to be in Greenville and have a found a way around MPTC.

I would love to see REI or Eastern Mountain Sports go either to a revamped Haywood or Downtown. While the prospect of seeing Magnolia Park being "high end" died years ago for me, I think that some of these places would be better suited keeping them close in a new urban setting. I shop at the REI at Landmark Center, over near Fenway Park. I'll provide a google map link to check the neighborhood out, but something like this would really work best far away from Woodruff Rd.

REI/Landmark Center, Boston.

[gs3]

I would love to see REI or Eastern Mountain Sports go either to a revamped Haywood or Downtown. While the prospect of seeing Magnolia Park being "high end" died years ago for me, I think that some of these places would be better suited keeping them close in a new urban setting. I shop at the REI at Landmark Center, over near Fenway Park. I'll provide a google map link to check the neighborhood out, but something like this would really work best far away from Woodruff Rd.

REI/Landmark Center, Boston.

I've been in that location. It's like in an old Montgomery Ward or Sears office / warehouse building. Great old building. Really would be cool if Greenville had this type of building close into the city, available for redevelopment.

[jarvismj]

I've been in that location. It's like in an old Montgomery Ward or Sears office / warehouse building. Great old building. Really would be cool if Greenville had this type of building close into the city, available for redevelopment.

Isn't there the old Sears on Stone Av? I think it was a Canal Insurance before I moved away. That would be optimum for a redevelopment.

[mallguy]

Isn't there the old Sears on Stone Av? I think it was a Canal Insurance before I moved away. That would be optimum for a redevelopment.

Yes, it was a Sears until Haywood Mall opened in 1980. That would be a good redevelopment opportunity, and with the demise of McAlister Square, I think that there is a void for large chain retail in central Greenville.