Signature Tower

[Jeeper12]

Just curious Jeepers who has been "on track" and "off track" IYO? Besides Charles I have found no credible sources (either way) in this thread. As far as outside this thread I find Tony to be incredibly forthright and sincere when he discusses his projects. Does this mean Siggy is a slam-dunk? No! But very few things in life are certain.

I recall a silly post by someone a few months ago that pronounced Tony's project dead with an obit to follow in a week or two. I don't think anyone took that post seriously and it probably surprises no one that we haven't heard a peep from them since: beware of the new member prognosticators!!

As to Charles and Tony I hope no one mistakes my previous posts as an attempt to personally discredit them or even suggest that they are spreading falsehoods. That said, I think we all need to recognize that they have fish to fry and need to promote positive buzz as much as possible (I don't expect Charles or Tony to log on and update us with setbacks and problems until they have no choice). This forum on the other hand (as I understand it) is not about promoting or discrediting projects. Rather, its purpose it to discuss them and exchange information and ideas about them. Occassionally, you will read about things on this forum before they becomes a press release or a newspaper article. I suspect that is one of the reasons our friends William and Richard tune in from time to time. Finally, the more objective we can all be about our posts the more useful, informative, and fun I think everyone will find the forum.

[Guest]

Good post, I completely agree!

[nashvillwill]

I'm curious (as a person with no idea how this system works) if this project can still begin in January. I'm not asking for speculation on whether it will happen or not, just ASSUMING it will, is it still possible for things to come together by January? To further narrow speculation let's assume that the magic sales number is met, we will recieve a bank loan as soon as it is officially applied for, and any needed city approval will be given. If everything happens positively, is it still to much to accomplish by January, or is this a typical timeline for a project?

Just curiosity from a laymen.

[monsoon]

If what you mean by starting, is they have a ground breaking and start construction, I would say no. This is simply do to the reason that as stated above no building permits have been applied for. On a project of this magnitude, I would assume it will take several months for the city's engineers to approve these plans for construction as being safe, before one is issued. (if it works the same way in Nashville/Davidson as it does elsewhere)

Now we happen to be moving into the last two months of the year, both of which have major holidays in them so I would say that things that involve governmental approval will start to slow down alot. Thus I think we can conclude that construction will not start in January. That is of course if the information they have not even started the permitting process had not begun yet.

(and this is ignoring the fact they apparently have not sold enough of the tower to get a construction loan)

It's like Jeeper12 said, it's not just the builder that has information on this project. At some point they are going to have to work with the city/county on permits and all of that is a matter of public record. Until that happens, I think you can safely say there nothing is going on towards moving towards a definate real construction date, despite the marketing that would imply otherwise.

[Jeeper12]

I'm curious (as a person with no idea how this system works) if this project can still begin in January. I'm not asking for speculation on whether it will happen or not, just ASSUMING it will, is it still possible for things to come together by January? To further narrow speculation let's assume that the magic sales number is met, we will recieve a bank loan as soon as it is officially applied for, and any needed city approval will be given. If everything happens positively, is it still to much to accomplish by January, or is this a typical timeline for a project?

Just curiosity from a laymen.

I'll take a shot a ask that Gaushell or anyone else with better info edit as they see fit.

I don't see it likely that Tony will put a shovel in the ground for 6-9 months. Here's why: if his DD's (design development drawings) are going out today his contractor will need at least 4-6 weeks to get through the pricing and probably another month or two beyond that to work through value engineering issues. Gaushell didn't say but I assume all pricing previous to now has been based upon Schematic plans, a mere portion of DD's (which are a mere portion of Construction Drawings a.k.a. CD's). If this is true then the reliability of Tony's previous estimates are probably questionable. I say this not to discredit the effort but rather to point out that lots of time and energy are likely to be required to get the project's cost budget where it needs to be, especially such a big project. That's why I think 4 months is a best case scenario. Once there is a high confidence that costs are under control a foundation permit could be applied for and obtained within 30 days thereby allowing some sitework to commence.

All of the above assumes that all the revenue bases are covered. Unless I missed an announcment this is not the case. In order for a project of this magnitude to get airborne someone is going to have to start spending some real money on the marketing. With all due respect to Gaushell $300 million projects don't fly on the wings of a website and a remote office. For this deal to even have a chance at success someone is going to have to develop a sales office that's a showstopper. How can Tony expect to do less than Terrazo, Icon, Adelicia, etc. while charging prices almost twice as high ? Even Mr. Palmer (who gets a fair rash on this site) is building out a 7 figure sales center in Palmer Plaza as we speak replete with kitchens and baths and hotel rooms. When Tony comes to this realization and/or obtains the funds to do this and generate the high end collateral materials to accompany it he will need 6 months from the time he has identified his location to design, build and furnish this facility. At that point tack on as much time as you think it will take for him to sell a few hundred units at $550 plus a foot at terms (deposit amounts) that are acceptable to his yet to be identified lenders and partners.

You can agree or disagree with my 6-9 months but as I see it the only way he gets to the front side of that range is if he starts doing all of the above (along with finding partners and lenders) concurrently. And there doesn't seem to be much evidence of this so far. Remember, since May he has taken some reservations, priced schematics (presumably) and generated a bunch of publicity. I'm afraid the lifting gets much heaviers from here. Hope this is helpful.

[nashvillwill]

just the info i was looking for. not as encouraging as i had hoped, but it makes perfect sense. thanks guys!

[gaushell]

You need to understand that though I'm involved in the project, I'm just trying to provide clear information. I'm not here as a plant. I'm also not speaking on behalf of the project. I'm just trying to clarify of provide information on how things are typically done. In an earlier post you tried to paraphrase me in saying that "Gaushell stated, some team members are paid to keep the buzz going regardless of whether there is any substance behind the pr or not.

I am not privy to the construction schedule and haven't asked. But here is how large projects flowed when I practiced architecture and was the project manager. The sooner you get the contractor involved the better as they will help with pricing along the way. Prices will fluctuate but if you have a reputable contractor you WILL NOT see large fluctuations. A good DD set can provide very good estimates. The GC will not be seeing things for the first time and they aren't stupid - they don't want to give numbers too low early. They build in pad. Regarding permits - typically the architects, contractors and engineers have been meeting with the code officials so they are familiar with things. I never finished a project and then showed it to code departments for the first time - you work with them along the way.

I don't think we need to delve into detailed marketing philosophies (or maybe I will), but I disagree - a slick "walk in" sales center does not sell high end projects. Signature is a very different market. We do these things all over the country and it varys from project to project on what is needed.

Just watch and see what happens whether you are pro or con.

[monsoon]

Just watch and see what happens whether you are pro or con.

How about just interested. There is no need to keep putting labels on people just because they have questions about this project.

[gaushell]

huh? how is that a label?

My first paragraph noted that I am trying to provide information that is helpful and answering questions.

Good grief.

[monsoon]

huh? how is that a label?

My first paragraph noted that I am trying to provide information that is helpful and answering questions.

Good grief.

Good grief is right.

As far as I can see you haven't done much to answer questions except to state that you don't know anything or won't say anything, preach to people about being impatient, and of course accept pats on the back for showing up here to tell us this. And it only took you a page or so to get that out.

Your continued implications that people who question the viability, marketing tactics, and relevance of this project to the urban development of Nashville, are somehow against it do us a disservice as I don't think I have seen one post in this thread where someone as said that. And your posts and notes behind the scenes that it isn't fair for the staff here, including myself, to point this out furthers cements this point.

Stick to the facts of the project.

[Jeeper12]

Sorry, I'm obviously techically challenged: see my responses below in bold.

You need to understand that though I'm involved in the project, I'm just trying to provide clear information. I'm not here as a plant. I'm also not speaking on behalf of the project. I'm just trying to clarify of provide information on how things are typically done. In an earlier post you tried to paraphrase me in saying that "Gaushell stated, some team members are paid to keep the buzz going regardless of whether there is any substance behind the pr or not. "

You must have misunderstood me. In any case, you didn't accurately quote me. Several posters have implied that since you work directly for Tony that your information should always be taken at face value irrespective of whether others (without stated ties to the developer, the media, or hotels where same congregate) raise differing points of view. Given that your firm works for the developer, "tangent" to his PR firm I think you said, I found such statements by others ironic and naive. With all due respect, you are not an objective dispenser of info about the project. The fact that you acknowledged how important it is to maintain positive "buzz" only seemed to underscore your conflict from my point of view.

I am not privy to the construction schedule and haven't asked. But here is how large projects flowed when I practiced architecture and was the project manager. The sooner you get the contractor involved the better as they will help with pricing along the way. Prices will fluctuate but if you have a reputable contractor you WILL NOT see large fluctuations. A good DD set can provide very good estimates. The GC will not be seeing things for the first time and they aren't stupid - they don't want to give numbers too low early. They build in pad. Regarding permits - typically the architects, contractors and engineers have been meeting with the code officials so they are familiar with things. I never finished a project and then showed it to code departments for the first time - you work with them along the way.

Candidly, I'm not sure how the above is responsive to my post or the one I was replying to. I think the timelines and related logic in my post is still valid but, like others here, I welcome responses that are specific to the points I raised.

I don't think we need to delve into detailed marketing philosophies (or maybe I will), but I disagree - a slick "walk in" sales center does not sell high end projects. Signature is a very different market. We do these things all over the country and it varys from project to project on what is needed.

Rather than debate cross pens and ferraris with you I'd simply ask you to name a single large (greater than $150 million) project (in your vast portfolio or otherwise), anywhere, ever, that sold out successfully without committing to a comprehensive marketing strategy (website, staffed luxury sales center (kitchen, bath, finishes, etc), luxury brochures, etc). Even if this was a possibility (which I don't conceed) during the mania of the last few years in FL, NV and DC, we are in a very different market today, even here in little ole Nashville.

Your comments relative to Icon seem imply that because ST is more like a Ferrari than a Mustang Tony doesn't need to do as much or spend as much to attract his buyers. I respectfully disagree. The buyers he's targeting are going to require more, not less, substance than any project ever marketed in Nashville, if they will buy at all at his prices. And substance costs a lot more money than I see him spending.

Just watch and see what happens whether you are pro or con.

We intend to, even those of us that are neither.

[Guest]

Naive are we??? How so? All I stated is that Charles is the ONLY one posting on this thread with declared sources. This DOES lend more credibility to his posts than say...oh I don't know...yours (or mine).

Charles has never said this is a done deal only that things are moving forward. I am sure that this board is not the market for the Siggy units thus I think Tony's marketing budget (limited though you think it may be) is probably not being used up on UP.

[gaushell]

Jeepers.

We are talking past each other. I respect what you are saying, we just see things differently. I think that is all good.

I've been very open about working with Signature and even willing to post my real name and firm name. I've been open that I want the project to succeed as well.

I don't expect anyone to just go along with what I say. I've certainly never said or suggested that. I'm just adding to the discussions. I expect people to disagree on these things.

Schedule - I wasn't arguing with you. Just adding additional information on how things typically work. I don't know what the exact schedule is and wasn't guessing. Thought my info might be additional help to others that might not completely understand the process.

Maybe I'm missing what some people expect. I don't see what is wrong in adding information as opposed to providing direct responses - when I may not know - but that doesn't invalidate the other info. Not posting it to see myself type - trying to be helpful.

Marketing - I was telling you the basic philosphy for the project. Not saying anyone has to agree with it. Money is certainly being spent. And I didn't say it shouldn't be - said it was a different approach and that a walk in sales center doesn't cut it alone. I did not imply that less money should be spent. I was saying it is a more narrow market and different approaches are necessary for different markets. Not trying to get anyone to concede anything - just providing info.

Don't quite understand what the heck has happened in the last few days on this forum. I have not claimed to know everything and have gone out of my way to say when I don't know or can't share something.

Trying to be helpful but beginning to wonder why I ever said anything. The last few weeks have gotten worse around here.

Again - I appreciate you observations and opinions. Good things to discuss.

Regards

[Jeeper12]

Jeepers.

We are talking past each other. I respect what you are saying, we just see things differently. I think that is all good.

I've been very open about working with Signature and even willing to post my real name and firm name. I've been open that I want the project to succeed as well.

I don't expect anyone to just go along with what I say. I've certainly never said or suggested that. I'm just adding to the discussions. I expect people to disagree on these things.

Schedule - I wasn't arguing with you. Just adding additional information on how things typically work. I don't know what the exact schedule is and wasn't guessing. Thought my info might be additional help to others that might not completely understand the process.

Maybe I'm missing what some people expect. I don't see what is wrong in adding information as opposed to providing direct responses - when I may not know - but that doesn't invalidate the other info. Not posting it to see myself type - trying to be helpful.

Marketing - I was telling you the basic philosphy for the project. Not saying anyone has to agree with it. Money is certainly being spent. And I didn't say it shouldn't be - said it was a different approach and that a walk in sales center doesn't cut it alone. I did not imply that less money should be spent. I was saying it is a more narrow market and different approaches are necessary for different markets. Not trying to get anyone to concede anything - just providing info.

Don't quite understand what the heck has happened in the last few days on this forum. I have not claimed to know everything and have gone out of my way to say when I don't know or can't share something.

Trying to be helpful but beginning to wonder why I ever said anything. The last few weeks have gotten worse around here.

Again - I appreciate you observations and opinions. Good things to discuss.

Regards

It seems to me that part of the problem is that we have at least two camps of people on this forum: those who are interested in discussion about some of the finer points (nuances if you will) of what is necessary to get a project like this off the ground and those who simply want to see only posts that are positive in all respects about ST's prospects. If I read someone remind us that ST "is not a slam dunk" or something to that effect one more time I think I'll commit Harry Carry!!

Some forumers have expressed an interest about details that may seem boring or irrelevant to others. My advise to those that only want it in black and white (verifiable proof, quotes with sources. etc) is to simply wait for the updates to come out in more traditional media outlets. Or at least refrain from taking so much of this personal. And by all means, for those of you who do feel so offended there are probably more useful and healthy things that you could be doing with your time.

Quite frankly, it's a pity that these discussions so often deteriorate into personal pissing contests. It should be fun evocative discussion. There's an old saying about how you can disagree without being disagreeable. Seems like good advice for all of us to try and heed.

[Guest]

I am not taking anything personally. What a joke. I agree that there are two camps on this thread, those that are interested in hearing about the Signature progress (and setbacks) and the detractors.

I am interested in the process and I appreciate your input but you are not the only professional on the board and definitely not the closest to the developer. You may well be correct in your assessment because as has been stated it is no slam-dunk (please clean the floor after your ritual is complete) lol

Another phrase overused by the way is ...only time will tell (please wipe off the ritual sword and pass it my way) lol

[MZT]

Keep in mind that when someone close to the developer talks on UP, it's almost like speaking to the press. Quotes do get pulled from UP, and themes from here will appear in local newspapers.

It's unrealistic to think anyone would be so candid as to discuss problem A and problem B, since in a complex project there are always hurdles and they just have to comb through them. The simplest thing to do is handle every step in private, to prevent partial explanations blowing up into rumors.

If Gaushell answers question here, they're going to be cautious and protective of the developer. It's frustrating for the audience, yes.... but that's just how business is. Heck, when automobile models or software releases are delayed, there usually isn't a lot of give and take with the public.

Many of us here work in technical and intellectual jobs. We signed proprietary agreements with our employers, right? And we don't go airing company scuttlebutt on the Internet, right?

So just chill a bit.

[Plasticman]

Jeepers, all I was asking above is that if you or anyone says they have a reliable source, post a general idea of what kind of source like local developer, financier, marketing strategist, etc. Nobody is asking for specifics, at least I'm not.

Signature is one of my favorite projects in the SE but my sun doesn't rise or set on whether Atlanta, Nashville, or wherever gets a new office building. My life won't be altered in any way if Atlanta builds a 1,500 footer. But I do enjoy watching the skylines of my favorite four cities grow. The other two favorites are Charlotte and Memphis.

IMO - based on the last couple of pages of posts, there is enough information there to determine the project is still very much as alive as ever but also that dirt most likely won't move in January and may not for several months.

[Jeeper12]

Jeepers, all I was asking above is that if you or anyone says they have a reliable source, post a general idea of what kind of source like local developer, financier, marketing strategist, etc. Nobody is asking for specifics, at least I'm not.

I assume you are referring to my post regarding the status of the hotel component. My source was someone on the project team with direct knowledge of where things stood as of the time I posted. I can't be more specific without revealing their identity and breaching a confidence. Also, you should note that I didn't say it was dead only that it was on life support. That was exactly how it was characterized to me. Who knows, its possible I was being intentionally mislead but I have no previous experience with this person that would cause me to doubt what I was told. Take it for what it is though.

[ATLBrain]

Gaushell, I find your posts informative and appropriate. I understood what you meant with that pro/con thing.

[ATLBrain]

Jeepers, all I was asking above is that if you or anyone says they have a reliable source, post a general idea of what kind of source like local developer, financier, marketing strategist, etc. Nobody is asking for specifics, at least I'm not.

Couldn't agree more. I try to do the same thing when I cite rumors and other new info. I have passed on info from a flimsy source in the past, but I've noted as much. I've even withheld rumors like the one about Publix going into Chattanooga b/c the developer is a personal friend of mine. I knew about that one for at least six months. There are two other ones that could be big for Nashville, but I'm going to let the companies' announce. I'll tell (If/when) they go public. Still iffy on both.

[hayesmw]

I'll take a shot a ask that Gaushell or anyone else with better info edit as they see fit.

I don't see it likely that Tony will put a shovel in the ground for 6-9 months. Here's why: if his DD's (design development drawings) are going out today his contractor will need at least 4-6 weeks to get through the pricing and probably another month or two beyond that to work through value engineering issues. Gaushell didn't say but I assume all pricing previous to now has been based upon Schematic plans, a mere portion of DD's (which are a mere portion of Construction Drawings a.k.a. CD's). If this is true then the reliability of Tony's previous estimates are probably questionable. I say this not to discredit the effort but rather to point out that lots of time and energy are likely to be required to get the project's cost budget where it needs to be, especially such a big project. That's why I think 4 months is a best case scenario. Once there is a high confidence that costs are under control a foundation permit could be applied for and obtained within 30 days thereby allowing some sitework to commence.

All of the above assumes that all the revenue bases are covered. Unless I missed an announcment this is not the case. In order for a project of this magnitude to get airborne someone is going to have to start spending some real money on the marketing. With all due respect to Gaushell $300 million projects don't fly on the wings of a website and a remote office. For this deal to even have a chance at success someone is going to have to develop a sales office that's a showstopper. How can Tony expect to do less than Terrazo, Icon, Adelicia, etc. while charging prices almost twice as high ? Even Mr. Palmer (who gets a fair rash on this site) is building out a 7 figure sales center in Palmer Plaza as we speak replete with kitchens and baths and hotel rooms. When Tony comes to this realization and/or obtains the funds to do this and generate the high end collateral materials to accompany it he will need 6 months from the time he has identified his location to design, build and furnish this facility. At that point tack on as much time as you think it will take for him to sell a few hundred units at $550 plus a foot at terms (deposit amounts) that are acceptable to his yet to be identified lenders and partners.

You can agree or disagree with my 6-9 months but as I see it the only way he gets to the front side of that range is if he starts doing all of the above (along with finding partners and lenders) concurrently. And there doesn't seem to be much evidence of this so far. Remember, since May he has taken some reservations, priced schematics (presumably) and generated a bunch of publicity. I'm afraid the lifting gets much heaviers from here. Hope this is helpful.

One other thought. They could start digging the hole for the 8+ floor underground garage well before CD's are complete and I think that's a part of the plan. I also know that Tony is working on a major the sales center. I'd expect an announcement soon regarding this if it's not already public information.

[gaushell]

One other thought. They could start digging the hole for the 8+ floor underground garage well before CD's are complete and I think that's a part of the plan. I also know that Tony is working on a major the sales center. I'd expect an announcement soon regarding this if it's not already public information.

Sales center should open in January. It is next to their corporate hq.

[Guest]

Thanks Charles. BTW where is their current HQ? Are they in the wedding cake building next to the Viridian?

[gaushell]

Thanks Charles. BTW where is their current HQ? Are they in the wedding cake building next to the Viridian?

Sun Trust Building

201 4th Avenue North, Suite 1100

[smeagolsfree]

Noticed today there is a rezoning sign on the property. Changing from CC to SP. I take it that is from commercial core to specific plan. Not exactly sure on the meaning.

Is there any significance to the zoning change??