Nashville Mass Transit

[bzorch]

Good suggestions. Here is a list I have come up with that have incorporated your thoughts. I know I took at " Why the Hell", I hope you understand. We should probably get our list down to 3 to 5 questions, 7 at the most. Is MTA actually supporting the interstate projects? You sent a link from the Chamber of Commerce? If MTA is advocating this, then we should ask the question related to that more specifically as you had suggested. I look forward to your ideas downtown cliff.

1. Is there a long-term mass transit plan in place?

2. What do you foresee as the future of inner-community mass transit in Nashville? Why?

3. If Light Rail Transit (LRT) is not part of this future plan, why is it not being considered?

4. If Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) is not part of this future plan, why is it not being considered?

5. What strategies are you employing to increase ridership?

6. Is there a concern that building the mass transit center downtown as it is planned may limit our future mass transit options since it can only accommodate buses?

7. Why do you think TDOT continues to fund major interstate projects ( i.e. Widening of I-65 from Kentucky to Georgia, I-40/Briley Expansion, I-840) instead of local mass transit projects?

8. If Nashville chose to employ BRT or LRT, where would be the first place that you would start?

9.How does the Commuter Rail fit into the future of mass transit in Nashville and Middle Tennessee?

[southsideJ]

And isn't building a transit plaza tantamount to putting the cart before the horse? If/when a DT transit system is determined, won't it need a specialized transit plaza? This thing next to Municipal Auditorium is for buses only.

I thought the new MTA station was going to be built to support multiple forms of transit--at least to support them in the future. If it isn't I certainly agree that it should be.

One question I would put to the CofC is have there been any studies commissioned on either LRT or BRT--and how they would interact w/ commuter rail and current MTA service. If not, why.

[downtown cliff]

bzorch,

Great start on the list. Not much of value I can add. Here are some comments and suggestions.

Question 1 and 5 are partly addressed by MTA's 5-year plan (available on their website). It mainly addresses reducing head time on main line routes. That may even be a challenge based upon recent budget reports. Five years is not very long-term.

Questions 2,3,4 and 8 are excellent. You might be able to combine them into a single multi-part question. I know that the Nashville Area Metropolitan Planning Organization's (MPO) southeast corridor transit study is looking at LRT, BRT, commuter rail, and other options.

Question 6 is a good question. Unfortunately, I don't think the Regional Transit Authority (RTA) has ever planned to bring all of the proposed commuter rail into a single downtown terminus. On their website, they suggest that MTA will provide bus service from the Riverside terminus to parking, etc.

RTA also addresses question 9 on their website. They provide detailed info on the first leg of commuter rail and tentative info on the proposed additional legs.

Hard to add to this list. Here are some possible other questions:

10. Would the MTA consider phasing in a BRT demonstration project in modules as a lower-cost test to demonstrate the principles of the BRT concept?

11. Do MTA/RTA long-term plans address point to point mass transit along the rim of the city and the region in addition to the traditional wheel and spoke approach?

12. Do current mass-transit plans include improved service from the airport to downtown and the major exurbs?

13. Is there potential for a public-private partnership for BRT or LRT service?

I'll add more as I think of things.

[monsoon]

There is also an other option for service right in the city. Electric street car service. It's less expensive than full light rail, and because of that could qualify under the Small Starts program which is being funded this year for the first time.

[nashvillwill]

I looked at the bus routes the other day and the times since I see the buses on my walk. I have considered jumping on. The maps and schedules were not clear. There are a lot more bus stops on the street than are shown on the map. Do they stop at all of them or just the ones on the map? With the delay between times and the distance the hub is from work, it seems I can walk faster. I am still thinking of trying it out just for fun though. I can buy one of the 20 trip cards and get on when I want if it works out.

bzorch, I highly encourage you to endulge your curiosity and take a ride on the bus. I know that the maps/schedules can be confusing at first(it is never mastered) but the drivers and riders are typically very helpful. There are also maps in the buses, downtown transit mall, and many locations throughout the city. To answer one of your quetions, I believe you were confused about where the buses will stop. The points on the map are simply "checkpoints"(the bus should be at that place at the posted time), but every bus line has marked stops typically every few hundred feet where you can board or exit(look for blue "MTA Bus Stop" signs). The only exception to this rule is for express buses on which you can exit at any stop, but only board at certain checkpoints. The system is not convenient for everyone, but if goes where you need than it is the most stress free way to travel(besides a limo i guess. ha!)

6. Is there a concern that building the mass transit center downtown as it is planned may limit our future mass transit options since it can only accommodate buses?

Regarding the "Music City Central" transit hub, I consider this to be a immediate neccesity. Whether the hub will have sufficient conections with a future rail system cannot delay the construction of this hub. The current Deadrick St. mall is insufficient, outdated, unsafe, and IMO a big "F-U" to the current riders. Perhaps the biggest obstacle to increasing ridership is to get the public over their fear of mass-bus-transit. I cant blame people, Deadrick St. is shady, and nerve shaking. It also sucks waiting on a bus in the rain like i did today. Hopefully, with a newer, safer, more sophisticated main hub people might overcome their fear of the bus.

[cdub]

There is also an other option for service right in the city. Electric street car service. It's less expensive than full light rail, and because of that could qualify under the Small Starts program which is being funded this year for the first time.

That seems to be a great option. Here's a link describing Tampa's reborn streetcar.

Tampa Streetcar

Just a few quick facts for the none-link readers:

Lenght: 2.3 mile

Total capital cost: $32 million

Annual Operating cost: $1.3 million

Another site showing breakdowns of costs for various streetcar systems:

Streetcar costs

This seems like it could really make a step, affordably, in the right direction. I understand the concept of BRT, but I feel something gets lost when you try and make something look like something it's not. Things can get real cheeseball, real quick. Unfortunately, it seems there'll always be a class-associated stigma with 'riding the bus' and the streetcar could help bring cities back to their historical roots. I'll still argue that permanence is a big factor in bringing developers to a corridor.

I did find a private org. that was planning to build a streetcar system in Omaha, but it was pre-construction and I couldn't find anything showing it had been built. Apparently one guy was hoping to take it on, but it was going to directly benefit another business he ran. Connectivity to the waterfront in Omaha was an issue and he hoped to run a 2 mile length that would help bring users to the waterfront and a boat tour business he ran. Initial estimates were 700-800 passengers a day to be profitable. If we had a system installed along West End or to Hillsboro Village, we could pull that for the lunch hour, let alone evening joy-riders.

[Hankster]

That seems to be a great option. Here's a link describing Tampa's reborn streetcar.

Just a few quick facts for the none-link readers:

Lenght: 2.3 mile

Total capital cost: $32 million

Annual Operating cost: $1.3 million

It's wonderful to see streetcars being built once again. Nashville once had a very extensive streetcar system. There is evidence of the old system in mant areas of the city even today. I think it could work again here, especially if the density beginning to reform in the downtown area continues to grow. It is definitely viable costwise with other forms of rapid transit. The best areas to consider having this would be a line running down Broadway, connecting downtown with midtown. I thnk it would make sense for the line to go up 2nd Ave as well. That way we could attract a lot of tourist traffic as well as commuters.

[Lexy]

I have no problem whatsoever with a street car system in the central city of Nashville. I think that is a fantastic idea. It could supplement the bus transit already in place.

[LA_TN]

7. Why do you think TDOT continues to fund major interstate projects ( i.e. Widening of I-65 from Kentucky to Georgia, I-40/Briley Expansion, I-840) instead of local mass transit projects?

Actually, Briley Expansion is more of a safety update than an expansion. Briley has long been WAY below federal standards for things like: median distance or median divider (prevents vehicles from entering opposite lanes in the event of a wreck/etc.), curve radius, right-of-way, roadbed sub-structure, lane width, bridges, and I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting. The expansion part is more of an 'its easier to do it now' approach. Briley doesn't need eight lanes today, but this update should route some truck traffic out of DT that previously was not using Briley before. It's really a good thing.

The unfortunate part is the phase IV I-65/Briley interchange needs to be completed which is the bridge connecting the southbound I-65 to eastbound Briley. This would further help truck traffic by eliminating the current cloverleaf there. As they have special requirements, we have to remember our trucks...

[LA_TN]

I don't have too much time, so I can't go into detail here. I know there's a lot here, trying to be brief...

There are many things TDOT is planning for rail - both passenger and freight. Nashville is a very busy rail hub with over 100 trains per day connecting and switching thru the Nashville freight yard. Folks, that's a lot.

To leverage these lines for high speed rail requires Class I track. Most of the lines serving Nashville have a max speed of <79 mph, while high speed rail uses 90 mph and 100+ designations. The line from here to Chatanooga cannot be upgraded to Class I track due to the MontEagle area. Also note that this line is already running at high capacity (35+ daily trains). The line to Knoxvile had one segment removed years ago and much of the remaining line is <30 mph currently. Memphis line is ok, line to Louisville is excellant. Some areas will require double tracking where single track exists today; but the good news is that, on average, rail costs $1 million per mile vs. $8 million per mile for interstate roads.

Now, things in planning:

1) Memphis-Bristol freight line - this is being designed to reduce truck traffic on I-40 by providing a high-speed freight connection between Memphis, Nashville, Knoxville, and Bristol

2) There is a federal feasibility study underway for a 'super' high speed passenger service to connect Berry (BNA) to Chattanooga to Hartsfield (ATL). This line would leverage mag-lev (magnetic levitation) or bullet train technology for speeds approaching 180-200+ mph. The goal travel time is around one hour. If built, a 10 mile tunnel under MontEagle would be required. Also, TDOT and CSX have both agreed to partner with this tunnel to re-route I-24 (MontEagle segment maintenance costs are extraordinary) and re-route the existing freight line (which would trim about 30 miles off the line because it goes AROUND MontEagle)

3) If item 2 does not materialize, TDOT considers leveraging the existing line for high speed rail to Chattanooga (nbr 2 on TDOT's list)

4) Memphis to Nashville high speed passenger line is nbr 1 on TDOT's list. This would allow connection to Amtrak's 'City of New Orleans' line

5) Amtrak extension of the 'Kentucky Cardinal' from Louisville to Nashville and possibly Chattanooga. Would use existing CSX line. Trail run completed a few years ago with 3 hour travel time. This would connect to the Midwest High Speed Rail Corridor providing through service to Chicago

6) Local to Nashville would be the Music City Star with the following planned lines:

[bzorch]

Great suggestions and additional questions. Here is my attempt at combining them:

1. What do you foresee as the future of inner-community mass transit in Nashville? Why?

2. If Light Rail Transit (LRT), Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) and/or Electric Street Car Service (ESCS) are not part of this future, why is it not being considered? If Nashville chose to employ any of these transit options, where would be in your opinion the logical place to start? Would the MTA consider phasing in a BRT demonstration project in modules as a lower-cost test to demonstrate the principles of the BRT concept?

3. Do MTA/RTA long-term plans address point to point mass transit along the rim of the city and the region in addition to the traditional wheel and spoke approach?

4. Do current mass-transit plans include improved service from the airport to downtown and the major exurbs?

5. Are there successful models for public-private partnership for BRT, LRT, and/or ESCS services? Is there a potential MTA could pursue this?

6. Why do you think TDOT continues to fund major interstate projects ( i.e. Widening of I-65 from Kentucky to Georgia, I-40/Briley Expansion, I-840) instead of local mass transit projects?

Let me know what you think.

I added the Electric Street Car Service. The cost seems to be reasonable and gives us a more permanent option. I think there is a lot of nostalgia attached to them which could encourage others to ride. Here is a photo I had of the New Orleans system.

Thanks for clearing up some of the mysteries to the bus system.

I am glad to see there are things being planned for regional connections. Freight lines are not as sexy as commuter rail, but they are very important particularly as fuel cost get out of hand.

[downtown cliff]

bzorch, et al,

Good stuff. I think the electric street car option has a lot of potential. Any suggestions on how to submit our questions?

[monsoon]

2) There is a federal feasibility study underway for a 'super' high speed passenger service to connect Berry (BNA) to Chattanooga to Hartsfield (ATL). This line would leverage mag-lev (magnetic levitation) or bullet train technology for speeds approaching 180-200+ mph. The goal travel time is around one hour. If built, a 10 mile tunnel under MontEagle would be required. Also, TDOT and CSX have both agreed to partner with this tunnel to re-route I-24 (MontEagle segment maintenance costs are extraordinary) and re-route the existing freight line (which would trim about 30 miles off the line because it goes AROUND MontEagle)

It's great there is so much going on in Tenn. now in regards to rail transit.

However I would recommend staying off the maglev bandwagon as there have already been hundreds of millions spent on it and all we have are studies that say we need more studies. The technology is too expensive and not ready prime time, and I am afraid that it will detract from plans that have more of a chance of getting off the ground.

If we are serious about high speed rail we need to focus on conventional high speed rail such as that found in Japan or Europe, and make sure it is useful by making providing funding for local LRT, HRT and BRT to connect to the stations in each city where it stops. I've ridden on the Shinkanzen in Japan and it is a wonderful train. However it only works because when you get off the train, there is adequate public transportation that can take you somewhere in the cities where it stops.

[bzorch]

I will get email addresses together and develop a email. When we get a response, I will post it.

Who do you think would we better at MTA:

Chief Executive Officer - Paul J. Ballard

Director of Communications - Patricia Harris-Morehead

Director of Planning - Timothy Sanderson (I am leaning toward sending it to Mr. Sanderson, since he is dealing with planning issues. )

Any thoughts.

[cheeriokid61]

Probably the Director and maybe the CEO. You could send it to both.

Also, I'm really liking the street car idea, too. it would fit very well with Nashville. Where could it go? 2nd Avenue? Broadway/ West End? Demonbreun? Also, would it be easily replaced with LRT once the ridership would allow it? Does anyone know what the max ridership is of street cars?

[Lukin]

I think a street car going down broadway from union station to the river would be entirely appropriate and even feasible. Maybe it could connect to one that goes up west end too. Maybe with all the stuff about to happen in sobro - Demonbreun could even justify one. Street cars are just an easy and cost-affective means of establishing some sort of transportation. Communters could take the train into town at the riverfront station, get off, and take the street car up broadway to their respective street/office and walk the remaining way (One of the great things about our downtown is it is so small - you can pretty much walk anywhere without a problem). Maybe one going down on 5th or 4th avenues would work too.

[LA_TN]

It's great there is so much going on in Tenn. now in regards to rail transit.

However I would recommend staying off the maglev bandwagon as there have already been hundreds of millions spent on it and all we have are studies that say we need more studies. The technology is too expensive and not ready prime time, and I am afraid that it will detract from plans that have more of a chance of getting off the ground.

If we are serious about high speed rail we need to focus on conventional high speed rail such as that found in Japan or Europe, and make sure it is useful by making providing funding for local LRT, HRT and BRT to connect to the stations in each city where it stops. I've ridden on the Shinkanzen in Japan and it is a wonderful train. However it only works because when you get off the train, there is adequate public transportation that can take you somewhere in the cities where it stops.

Many good points here. The 'bullet' trains of Europe/Japan are the more logical and likely; however, it is probably still not pratical due to topography. Maglev is ready; safety and the promised low opperational cost is not. Although it seems logical to have good public transportation at stations; this is not necessary, compare to our airports of today

There are 3 different plans attempting to connect service along the Nash/Chat corridor. Here's a link to TN rail plan info on net:

Tennessee Rail Plan

[LA_TN]

3. Do MTA/RTA long-term plans address point to point mass transit along the rim of the city and the region in addition to the traditional wheel and spoke approach?

This is a very good but political issue. Does Brentwood want Antioch/LaVergne to have better access to Brentwood? Good luck on this one. Very sad, very important, and very sad.

6. Why do you think TDOT continues to fund major interstate projects ( i.e. Widening of I-65 from Kentucky to Georgia, I-40/Briley Expansion, I-840) instead of local mass transit projects?

I have no idea why anyone would oppose Widening of I-65. Would you also oppose adding an additional rail line? This for the benefit of Nashville for intrastate freight and passengers. I doubt anyone will be commuting daily from Louisville. As stated before, TDOT foresees the freight problem and is attempting to address it; hence the planning of the Memphis-Bristol rail connection. Nashville should support this - in a big way.

I added the Electric Street Car Service.

I'm sorry, but I thought we were trying to reduce the clutter of overhead power lines and I certainly would not wish to revert to expensive rails being laid within our streets for a service that goes slower than me on a bike. But tourists love it, visit San Francisco.

On a positive note, the rest of the items look good.

[cdub]

I have no idea why anyone would oppose Widening of I-65. Would you also oppose adding an additional rail line? This for the benefit of Nashville for intrastate freight and passengers.

The problem with widening I65 again is we've just done it/ are doing it. The continual widening of interstates does nothing but encourage more sprawl. Once an interstate is widened, traffic congestion is relieved for a short period, sprawl leapfrogs the previous sprawl that needed the first widening, and we're back to square one in a short period of time - widen again. Widening rarely has anything to do with freight. It has to do with making the drive from Hendersonville to downtown or Cool Springs as fast as possible in the morning/ afternoon commute.

This kind of system isn't sustainable. As mentioned previously, why not add some sort of mass transit to an interstate instead of continually widening. The goal should be to get people off the road. After all, the roads are the required widths for 4 hours a day. A lot like designing parking lots for the day after Thanksgiving. What about use taxes for individuals who choose to live at the far urban fringes? We are building and widening roads primarily for them. San Francisco is looking into it, and London uses it regulate its growth.

Interesting article that I'm sure no suburbanite would agree with.

Congestion Pricing

[nashvillwill]

So, according to all studies I have seen, the cost of begining a Nashville-Memphis passenger/freight rail line is 100 million. This is including all rail improvments, stations, and rolling stock. If this is all true then what is the hold up? I understand 100 million is a big number, but in comparison it seems like a must have.

[downtown cliff]

Mssr. Lower Antioch touched on one of my latent concerns with streetcars...speed. The beauty of a BRT is that it can be fast loaded like a train, and properly routed, moves at least as fast. Can't be said for a streetcar. Streetcars can be very popular with tourists, but are they as effective in meeting the needs of us urbanites?

[cdub]

Mssr. Lower Antioch touched on one of my latent concerns with streetcars...speed.

According to Tampa's site, they can attain 30 mph. Obviously this is dependent on the number of stops and linear feet in between. Even if it was slow, as long as it's regular it would still be better than having to wait on the current bus system.

[bzorch]

DowntownCliff, I did not see you at the end of the meeting. Will you try and get a name at RTA or MTA through your contacts this week? We can either send the email or as you suggested, maybe meet with them. Whatever the results, we will post them here.

[downtown cliff]

According to Tampa's site, they can attain 30 mph. Obviously this is dependent on the number of stops and linear feet in between. Even if it was slow, as long as it's regular it would still be better than having to wait on the current bus system.

agreed

DowntownCliff, I did not see you at the end of the meeting. Will you try and get a name at RTA or MTA through your contacts this week? We can either send the email or as you suggested, maybe meet with them. Whatever the results, we will post them here.

wilco

[monsoon]

Mssr. Lower Antioch touched on one of my latent concerns with streetcars...speed. The beauty of a BRT is that it can be fast loaded like a train, and properly routed, moves at least as fast. Can't be said for a streetcar. Streetcars can be very popular with tourists, but are they as effective in meeting the needs of us urbanites?

The Tampa system mentioned above is a reproduction of a historic Trolley system. It has its limitations.

What you want to look at is a modern street car line. They can fully replace city buses, operate at highway speeds, and complement other forms of transit quite well.

You can learn more about one of these at this link. Click on the Center City Corridor link.

This is what a modern street car looks like.