Nashville Mass Transit

[LA_TN]

The Tampa system mentioned above is a reproduction of a historic Trolley system. It has its limitations.

What you want to look at is a modern street car line. They can fully replace city buses, operate at highway speeds, and complement other forms of transit quite well.

You can learn more about one of these at this link. Click on the Center City Corridor link.

This is what a modern street car looks like.

Thanks for the link, this helps.

One interesting thing I noticed in San Fran, was buses using the overhead electirc lines. That's interesting because now you have a vechile that can move without track and with speed.

[smeagolsfree]

On the topic of widening interstates:

I 40 and I 24 have been widened coming into and going out of the downtown area. The main problem with those 2 interstates is that you have 4 or 5 lanes coming inbound on I 40 and I 24 all funnelling down to 4 lanes and was a big mistake IMO. If they continue to rely on the interstate system then they might as well double deck the stretch of interstate through the Fessler's lane area. I dont like that idea but what is the solution other than strict car pooling rules, rail, BRT or whatever. It seems we have made our bed here and are going to have to lie in it for a long time.

[downtown cliff]

The Tampa system mentioned above is a reproduction of a historic Trolley system. It has its limitations.

What you want to look at is a modern street car line. They can fully replace city buses, operate at highway speeds, and complement other forms of transit quite well.

You can learn more about one of these at this link. Click on the Center City Corridor link.

This is what a modern street car looks like.

I like this better than the historic trolleys. What are the infrastructure costs like in comparison to LRT or BRT? The Charlotte example appears to be essentially a smaller LRT with no stations. You still have to pay for the track.

[monsoon]

I like this better than the historic trolleys. What are the infrastructure costs like in comparison to LRT or BRT? The Charlotte example appears to be essentially a smaller LRT with no stations. You still have to pay for the track.

The track has to be installed, but the big benefit of a Streetcar over LRT is there are no ROW costs as presumably the city will already own the streets. ROW is often the largest chunk of change needed to build a system. The city has already started installing track in sections where the roads are being repaired as part of routine maintenance so the cost impacts are not that great.

CATS has estimated that replacement of city buses along one of the routes with street cars will actually save it $400K/year.

[memphian]

My sister was visiting town this weekend and she echoed this discussion. Nashville needs a way to connect West End to Downtown to East Nashville. That's a great primary line with expansion to the airport (if we build a new cc then we should be seriously expecting major increase in visitors to downtown and guests at BNA). Another possible extension/route would be the Jefferson Street corridor to accomodate students at FISK and TSU.

I am going to hold fast and true to my wish of a system similar to Jacksonville's Skyway. One of the best things about it are the massive parking garages on the edge of downtown. The garages have stops for the skyway so that workers can catch the system into downtown. This just seems like a win/win situation to me.

[eusebius]

I am going to hold fast and true to my wish of a system similar to Jacksonville's Skyway. One of the best things about it are the massive parking garages on the edge of downtown. The garages have stops for the skyway so that workers can catch the system into downtown. This just seems like a win/win situation to me.

I like the idea of massive garages on the edge of DT. Kinda like in Venice -- there's gigantic parking structures on the mainland. You park and take the water taxi into town.

[ATLBrain]

On the topic of widening interstates:

I 40 and I 24 have been widened coming into and going out of the downtown area. The main problem with those 2 interstates is that you have 4 or 5 lanes coming inbound on I 40 and I 24 all funnelling down to 4 lanes and was a big mistake IMO. If they continue to rely on the interstate system then they might as well double deck the stretch of interstate through the Fessler's lane area. I dont like that idea but what is the solution other than strict car pooling rules, rail, BRT or whatever. It seems we have made our bed here and are going to have to lie in it for a long time.

As I understand the pressers from TDOT, the expansion of all 3 Interstates to 10/12 lanes through DT are already funded and planned. With the amount of construction/congestion that this will surely bring, TDOT has decided to stop construction for two years before starting on the intown sections to give commuters a temporary break. Can somebody up in NSH verify this for me?

Apparently, these projects will make the one just bid out in Knoxville for $130 million look like kids playing in a sandbox.

[smeagolsfree]

As I understand the pressers from TDOT, the expansion of all 3 Interstates to 10/12 lanes through DT are already funded and planned. With the amount of construction/congestion that this will surely bring, TDOT has decided to stop construction for two years before starting on the intown sections to give commuters a temporary break. Can somebody up in NSH verify this for me?

Apparently, these projects will make the one just bid out in Knoxville for $130 million look like kids playing in a sandbox.

Wow, this is news to me. I have not heard any mention of this. They will not be able to widen the section between DT and the 24/40 split very easily. There is Elm Hill pike on one side and Murfreesboro on the other and many businesses sit in between. 120 million would probably not even cover the land acquisition.

Maybe we need to call TDOT and get the answer. It may be on the net so I will try to do a couple of searches.

TDOT Long range transportation plan summery link below:

http://www.tdot.state.tn.us/plango/pdfs/Su...licComments.pdf

[LA_TN]

The problem with widening I65 again is we've just done it/ are doing it. The continual widening of interstates does nothing but encourage more sprawl. Once an interstate is widened, traffic congestion is relieved for a short period, sprawl leapfrogs the previous sprawl that needed the first widening, and we're back to square one in a short period of time - widen again. Widening rarely has anything to do with freight. It has to do with making the drive from Hendersonville to downtown or Cool Springs as fast as possible in the morning/ afternoon commute.

This kind of system isn't sustainable. As mentioned previously, why not add some sort of mass transit to an interstate instead of continually widening. The goal should be to get people off the road. After all, the roads are the required widths for 4 hours a day. A lot like designing parking lots for the day after Thanksgiving. What about use taxes for individuals who choose to live at the far urban fringes? We are building and widening roads primarily for them. San Francisco is looking into it, and London uses it regulate its growth.

Interesting article that I'm sure no suburbanite would agree with.

Congestion Pricing

I welcome your opinion, but respectfully disagree. Adding a new lane from DT to Franklin is sprawl; adding a new lane from Franklin to Huntsville is not sprawl, but the result of good intrastate commerce/traffic.

I agree w/ you on the sprawl effect close to town, but this is not the big picture. Visit some other areas of I-40, I-65, I-75, or I-95 to see if they have sprawl along widened sections in rural areas - they do not. If they did, Rooster Run, Ky. would be a household name.

People are not commuting from Bowling Green to DT for work on a daily basis; however, some examples of traffic on I-65 at the Ky state line might include: food, gas, raw materials, finished goods, other freight, livestock, car-carriers (ala Nissan), mail/packages, business travellers, WKU commuters, vacationers/tourists, and maybe even grandma coming for a visit (run for the hills). There is a lot of traffic on I-65 during non rush hour times, is that sprawl? Let's oppose noisy airport expansion next, then let's tackle these pesky coal barges on the Cumberland R.

[cdub]

I welcome your opinion, but respectfully disagree. Adding a new lane from DT to Franklin is sprawl; adding a new lane from Franklin to Huntsville is not sprawl, but the result of good intrastate commerce/traffic.

There's that much commerce traffic that would require 3 lanes each way to Huntsville? I doubt it. If there were, nothing that a user tax wouldn't help alleviate and push some commerce traffic to rail which is much more efficient. Additionally, adding lanes no matter what you call them, commerce, sprawl, all add up to sprawl. They make it easier and easier for individuals to live farther out and commute in 'traffic free' for a short time.

Do people commute from Bowling Green to DT, of course they do, my wife knows a few. I think they are completely insane, but that's my opinion. I travel 65N frequently to visit the Louisville area, once traffic clears the Rivergate/ Longhollow Pike during Friday evening rush hour, traffic begins to lighten up. There's a stretch of 65 from Elizabethtown to Louisville that's 3 lanes each way. I've never witnessed traffic on that section with the exception of a wreck, construction, or the blizzard around Christmas of '04. I hardly qualify those situations as requiring the extension. To me, those sections are underutilized and therefore inefficient. Money would have been much better spent on a rail line linking Nashville and Louisville (or just Lousville-Etown) via the interstate R.O.W. That would have gotten people out of their cars and freed up the interstate for commerce to occur.

I don't buy the argument that commerce needs 3 lanes. I don't think I've witnessed many 2 lane each way highways bogged down in traffic outside of a city with the exceptions mentioned above or holiday traffic. Well, I guess we design parking lots for the day after Thanksgiving, maybe we should design our interstates for the major holidays as well. Makes complete sense.

[rocky top buzz]

I've read so much and have so much to say!

There are people who commute from Huntsville to Nashville. My wife had a professor at Lipscomb who did just that. I don't see what the big deal is about having 3 lanes. The majority of my travel is between Nashville and Atlanta. The I-24 stretch to Chattanooga is very straight, which is nice, but it seems like there's always one truck passing another truck in the left lane, and the slow truck is going 60 and the "faster" truck is going 61! It's great when you get into Georgia because it's 3 lanes with trucks limited to the right two lanes.

As for our interstates, 1- I think it's stupid that we can only add one lane at a time (ie, why did I-24 on the southside go from 2 lanes, to 3, and then a few months later start on lane 4? It really should be 5 lanes from the boro to the downtown loop), 2- Who is the idiot who thought we could have 4 lanes coming into town, merging into 2? 3- Traveling on I-24 West and I-40 west, when you get to the 24/40 merger, why do you have to change lanes to stay on the same interstate? I come in on I-24, but once I hit 24/40, I am in the two left lanes, but to stay on I-24 at the split, I have to get in the two right lanes??? Same thing coming from downtown. You get all these people who immediately change lanes, and that snarles up traffic even worse!

Anyone operate helicopter service to downtown? I bet you'd make a bundle!

[downtown cliff]

Traveling on I-24 West and I-40 west, when you get to the 24/40 merger, why do you have to change lanes to stay on the same interstate? I come in on I-24, but once I hit 24/40, I am in the two left lanes, but to stay on I-24 at the split, I have to get in the two right lanes??? Same thing coming from downtown. You get all these people who immediately change lanes, and that snarles up traffic even worse!

I attended a presentation by a DOT official last December. She noted that DOT has a plan that would fix the lane issue around downtown, but it has not been a priority. The higher priority has been appeasing legislators representing the ring counties with more lanes and interchanges in their counties.

[LA_TN]

There's that much commerce traffic that would require 3 lanes each way to Huntsville? I doubt it. If there were, nothing that a user tax wouldn't help alleviate and push some commerce traffic to rail which is much more efficient. Additionally, adding lanes no matter what you call them, commerce, sprawl, all add up to sprawl. They make it easier and easier for individuals to live farther out and commute in 'traffic free' for a short time.

Do people commute from Bowling Green to DT, of course they do, my wife knows a few. I think they are completely insane, but that's my opinion. I travel 65N frequently to visit the Louisville area, once traffic clears the Rivergate/ Longhollow Pike during Friday evening rush hour, traffic begins to lighten up. There's a stretch of 65 from Elizabethtown to Louisville that's 3 lanes each way. I've never witnessed traffic on that section with the exception of a wreck, construction, or the blizzard around Christmas of '04. I hardly qualify those situations as requiring the extension. To me, those sections are underutilized and therefore inefficient. Money would have been much better spent on a rail line linking Nashville and Louisville (or just Lousville-Etown) via the interstate R.O.W. That would have gotten people out of their cars and freed up the interstate for commerce to occur.

I don't buy the argument that commerce needs 3 lanes. I don't think I've witnessed many 2 lane each way highways bogged down in traffic outside of a city with the exceptions mentioned above or holiday traffic. Well, I guess we design parking lots for the day after Thanksgiving, maybe we should design our interstates for the major holidays as well. Makes complete sense.

I have seen the I-65 stretch from Louisville to E-town with enough traffic to justify the 6 lanes, and I'm not being bias.

One factor that plays a role here is construction. These days, it seems there is always construction somewhere along an interstate and normally traffic is reduced to one lane. I have personnally sat through a 15-mile backup late on a Tuesday night to go over Jelico mountain on I-75 where traffic was reduced to one lane. One goal of widening I-65 here is to complete this before traffic gets so bad that the construction becomes a nightmare for traffic backups. This is a proactive approach. Just look at the effects lane reductions had on I-65 north and south (repaving)

And yes, I know there are people that commute from Bowling Green and even my home town of Princeton, Ky (1.5 hours), but they are very few and most are not long-term commuters. If these long-distance commuters add even 500 or 1,000 vehicles per day, that's still a long way from the 60,000+ vehicles per day crossing the Ky state line.

I agree with you on the I-65 to the Bama state line, I don't think the traffic counts support the need for an additional lane. I-65 north is yes, I-40 east or west have more need than I-65 south IMO. I-24 is where your argument has weight. There is a ton of daily commuters from Clarksville. This where the Music City Star is desperately needed IMO.

I couldn't agree with you more on the benefits of rail, but we don't have them and it will take time to build. The rail line to Louisville and to Chattanooga are already at high capacity.

You're entitled to your opinion about sprawl and I'm agianst sprawl myself; but there are tens of thousands of vehicles per day on each of our interstates that are traveling through Nashville going somewhere. If all interstates were sprawl, rip them and see what happens, I'm assuming you never travel and don't eat fresh food. It's like darned if you, darned if you don't!!!

[LA_TN]

The higher priority has been appeasing legislators representing the ring counties with more lanes and interchanges in their counties.

When Ky implemented their long range plan, it had a significant impact on the 'political' roads. Ky still has problems with this, but it's much better than years ago. Let's hope it has a positive effect on TN as well

[downtown cliff]

I will get email addresses together and develop a email. When we get a response, I will post it.

Who do you think would we better at MTA:

Chief Executive Officer - Paul J. Ballard

Director of Communications - Patricia Harris-Morehead

Director of Planning - Timothy Sanderson (I am leaning toward sending it to Mr. Sanderson, since he is dealing with planning issues. )

Any thoughts.

bzorch,

I spoke with Sam Edwards, the Executive Director of the GNRC this morning. He said to go ahead and call the director of the RTA, which is under the GNRC. Sam said that it would be fine for RTA to have a meeting with us to allow us to bounce our suggestions/questions. Should I go ahead and give him a call? Timeframe? Participants?

[bzorch]

Downtown Cliff

If you want to meet, let me know a time next week. I would prefer eitehr early morning 8:00am or 1:00 after lunch. If they are interested in lunch that would be interesting as well. Just let me know. Will you record it? We need to be able to communicate the results back to the forum. I can do it any day next week except the 12th.

I will go ahead and send Mr. Sanderson the questions by email. I like the email because it gives them time to think about it and we can post their response easier.

On another note, I did not see anyone post this link from the Nashville Scene.

One-Way Lawmaking

It looks like the roadbuilders are getting worried. Maybe we are turning a corner. It is big business. I hope they are not successful in passing the legislation.

[jmanhsv]

There's that much commerce traffic that would require 3 lanes each way to Huntsville? I doubt it.

Take it from a Huntsvillian who visits Nashville frequently, it is needed, at least from the Columbia exit (Exit 46) northward. South of there, traffic is light, but with Nashville moving south at an ever-increasing rate, it might be good for TDOT just to get it over with.

[cdub]

Take it from a Huntsvillian who visits Nashville frequently, it is needed, at least from the Columbia exit (Exit 46) northward. South of there, traffic is light, but with Nashville moving south at an ever-increasing rate, it might be good for TDOT just to get it over with.

I've asked individuals who travel to Birminham and they say it's light at best, just their opinion I guess. The problem with adding those additional lanes is it allows sprawl to continue out, whether you think the widening is for commerce or not, that will happen. Also, why do we still think that widening roads is the solution to traffic problems? Could it not be our development patterns themselves? They've just widened I65 on the north part of town and guess what, there's still traffic.

I won't even go into I65 N to Louisville. I don't think we should be planning road projects whether an individual has to suffer through construction traffic (sorry, but that's the nature of the beast you've been given-Roads Fail and need repaired. How often do you see CSX and others completely replacing rail lines?) or get behind that the occasional truck slowly passing the other slower truck. To me, that's simply selfish and not good planning. Maybe I'm different and don't agree with the ME society we're in.

Thanks for finding the article Bzorch. I'd love to see a moratorium on all highway widening projects and reroute those monies to construction of inter-city transit. That would even the playing field between transit and our highly inefficient (and corrupt) road building initiatives. The only way, and I mean ONLY, to reduce traffic is simple - Get people out of their cars. Give them viable options to the automobile. Unfortunately, the suburbs are so poorly planned, these areas would suffer greatly as they have no walkability, but I guess park and rides could help.

[downtown cliff]

Downtown Cliff

If you want to meet, let me know a time next week. I would prefer eitehr early morning 8:00am or 1:00 after lunch. If they are interested in lunch that would be interesting as well. Just let me know. Will you record it? We need to be able to communicate the results back to the forum. I can do it any day next week except the 12th.

Let me see what I can set up. I'll pm you later.

[bzorch]

I was at a presentation today and one of the speakers was a TDOT representative and they were mentioning that Tennessee is rated in the top three best road systems by Truckers. I am not sure if this is the list they were refering to, but I found this on Overdrive Magazine's website.

Best Roads By State

1. Texas

2. Florida

3. Tennessee

4. Georgia, Ohio (tie)

5. Nevada, Virginia (tie)

So I wonder how bad our highway system really is for truck commerce? I do know our mass transit system is pretty poor though. Wonder where it ranks?

[LA_TN]

^ bzorch, I believe that is correct, I know TN was third in the list. TN roads are good on/off the interstates w/ 4 lane limited/semi-limited access to most areas of the state. Coupled w/ reasonalbe fuel/rest havens/etc.

I would be scared to see where our mass transit ranks; but, keep the faith

The truck traffic around Nashville is beginning to have an impact on road maintenance and, like it or not, soon it will be more viable to maintain a 6 lane road vs today's 4 lane roads. Visit Illinois...

[monsoon]

Since we have discussed transit in other cities before, I thought that I would post Charlotte's just released transit map. This shows all of the combinations of transit that we have discussed here. LRT, BRT, CR and Streetcars. Note, that in terms of stations, this system is considerably larger than today's Marta in Atlanta though it is not heavy rail, but it gives you an idea of the size. Currently Mecklenburg county, where most of this system is shown, has bout 850,000 people. (or there abouts)

Hopefully it will be an inspiration here.