City within a city

[localtalent]

you are when you suggest breaking up the street layout

One doesn't truly have a "grand" vision until one looks at the area as a blank slate.

You don't spend a couple billion dollars repurposing old warehouses on an industrial street grid.

[snoogit]

One doesn't truly have a "grand" vision until one looks at the area as a blank slate.

You don't spend a couple billion dollars repurposing old warehouses on an industrial street grid.

I just want to see Market, and Grandville Ave. stay at least, but it would be nice to keep some of the other existing streets.

[GRDadof3]

One doesn't truly have a "grand" vision until one looks at the area as a blank slate.

You don't spend a couple billion dollars repurposing old warehouses on an industrial street grid.

Question localtalent. For argument's sake, would you include a sports venue on said "blank slate". That could greatly change the way I would lay it out. Unlike so many other cities, I would NOT put the stadium/arena on the riverfront. That's just stupid to put a venue that's used so sporadically on what should be a public greenspace used daily.

Would you (or anyone else) agree?

[localtalent]

Question localtalent. For argument's sake, would you include a sports venue on said "blank slate". That could greatly change the way I would lay it out. Unlike so many other cities, I would NOT put the stadium/arena on the riverfront. That's just stupid to put a venue that's used so sporadically on what should be a public greenspace used daily.

Would you (or anyone else) agree?

Sports venue is such a broad term.

I think there's room for both an entertainment venue of some sort, plus public space along the riverfront. Think Millenium Park/Grant Park/Museum Row/Soldier Field in miniature.

[GRGyp]

Question localtalent. For argument's sake, would you include a sports venue on said "blank slate". That could greatly change the way I would lay it out. Unlike so many other cities, I would NOT put the stadium/arena on the riverfront. That's just stupid to put a venue that's used so sporadically on what should be a public greenspace used daily.

Would you (or anyone else) agree?

I agree. I'm a big fan of Baltimore's inner harbor and what the did there. I also love the design of Camden Yards. The placement of that stadium is off the harbor, but within walking distance of the inner harbor and all it's beautiful sights and sounds.

So I'd put a stadium in close proximity to the riverfront district, but definitely off the river.

[snoogit]

Question localtalent. For argument's sake, would you include a sports venue on said "blank slate". That could greatly change the way I would lay it out. Unlike so many other cities, I would NOT put the stadium/arena on the riverfront. That's just stupid to put a venue that's used so sporadically on what should be a public greenspace used daily.

Would you (or anyone else) agree?

I think I would agree with that, I don't want to see a stadium along the river if we can help it. I think it would go great at the Grandville Ave and Wealthy intersection myself. And I think if there is such a venue, that some of civitas' buildings would have to get a little taller as well.

[allbusiness]

One doesn't truly have a "grand" vision until one looks at the area as a blank slate.

You don't spend a couple billion dollars repurposing old warehouses on an industrial street grid.

While I agree with this, I also value the vibrancy that a traditional grid system brings to a "downtown" area. It's what we all complain about when we discuss the suburbs and their love of spoke and wheel cul-de-sacs that turn the major street into a war zone and destroy the walk-able nature of the urban grid.

[GRDadof3]

I think I would agree with that, I don't want to see a stadium along the river if we can help it. I think it would go great at the Grandville Ave and Wealthy intersection myself. And I think if there is such a venue, that some of civitas' buildings would have to get a little taller as well.

Boy, decisions, decisions. A baseball stadium I think would be nice at the corner of Grandville & Wealthy, with home plate at (near) that corner, opening up to see the riverfront development as well as the current downtown.

A football stadium could go there, and also maybe edged closer to the river, but stay East of Market.

I think you're right localtalent. Why keep any of the street grids. Does Market need to be maintained all the way through? Does Grandville? It's not like there's a lot of existing traffic that would be choked off.

I'm now thinking that a development like this will require a "re-branding" of the existing downtown. Much like Canary Wharf did, it might steal a lot of the current office users away from the old downtown.

However, the Northern part of downtown will completely transform with the healthcare additions. It's just the vacuum in the middle that will need attention.

[civitas]

I would think maintaining the Market Street grid, and the Grandville grid would be important, but all other streets being open for changes. It's pretty much isolated on the East and West by the ITP Station and the river, respectively, which gives you a lot of flexibility to not have to maintain "connectivity" from East to West. Access to the site from Wealthy St and Oakes St may be needed for visitors.

Definitely I think a new train station and a future light rail station are a must. I also have to agree that to not take advantage of the growing (and future) downtown skyline would be a mistake.

Great point on the train station. From this property you could actually have light rail to the big property that Steelcase is selling.

My street grid maintains Market but takes liberties with the rest of the grid. My "respecting the existing grid" comment was more about conceptually keeping a traditional pattern of blocks and streets. There are "A" streets like Monroe Center and "B" streets like Fountain. They are equally valuable in terms of opportunity. The block faces need to be reasonably short to allow easy pedestrian flow.

There may be existing utilities in the existing streets that might influence someone's layout.

[AlexPKeaton]

A couple things I'd like to see:

At least one taller building would be nice to add to the skyline. Perhaps place it right up against 131 and Market to tie it as closely to the existing downtown as possible. I also like the roundabout idea with similar buildings all around it.

Overall, however, I think the development is a little too big. Not that I don't want a huge development like this, but if one developer is building that entire space I think it'll look too contrived. All the buildings will probably look similar and it will be creepy.

So, I'd prefer a pretty compact development with much of the square footage going into a tower and the roundabout area. Perhaps the large and less tall (maybe 3-5 floors?) shopping/restaurant/riverwalk area can tie them together along the river with residential development on top.

Lastly, if this development does include the bus garage as well, rather than moving the garage it might be nice to include it in the development. I know a garage is a bit of an eyesore and doesn't make money like commercial development, but hear me out. I like the idea of keeping some non-entertainment/shopping/office uses in the area because it adds some variety. You'll have a greater mix of people down there at all times of day. The garage could probably be hidden well-enough that it wouldn't be a visual mess. Additionally, if it were included the city wouldn't have to worry about finding a new site for it.

Lastly, I love the idea of building a "grand" train station for our city. The only problem I see is that rail use isn't big in the US anymore so there's no way the station will be built on a grand scale. But, as rail become more important in the US again following the oil crisis of 2008, the station will be too small and being in an already-developed urban area building new tracks will be expensive and difficult. I'd like it if this thing were overbuilt in anticipation of the futre, but I don't see that happening.

-nb

[Rizzo]

One doesn't truly have a "grand" vision until one looks at the area as a blank slate.

You don't spend a couple billion dollars repurposing old warehouses on an industrial street grid.

There my friend, that is the vision.

[BeYouLiz]

This is awesome!! I would love to be able to fast forward 5 years to get a quick peak at what our city is going to become. So many unknowns but so much potential.. I'm so impatient.