Why do we even have I-277?

[monsoon]

Oh, ok. That is just an imprecise map. They chose to show the 10th Street connection on that map, which still exists today.

If you look more closely at that 1935 map, Central and 10th meet at a 5 points, then Central veers off sharply and continues into downtown through what is roughly the Garden district now. It is not the same as the 10th street connector. That part of Central and the Victorian homes that surrounded it, right were the Freeway is today, and the trendy condos past that, are all gone now. That 5 points still existed in 1975 but it is gone now. It all changed when they built the part of John Belk Freeway that opened in 1981.

[otherstream]

If you look more closely at that 1935 map, Central and 10th meet at a 5 points, then Central veers off sharply and continues into downtown through what is roughly the Garden district now. It is not the same as the 10th street connector. That part of Central and the Victorian homes that surrounded it, right were the Freeway is today, and the trendy condos past that, are all gone now. That 5 points still existed in 1975 but it is gone now. It all changed when they built the part of John Belk Freeway that opened in 1981.

Not to split hairs, but methinks dubone is right on this one. The Central/10th/Louise five points intersection is still very present -- and still very annoying when you're stuck at the stoplight. The part of Central that disappeared is the two or so blocks between 7th and Prospect. Central still follows the same route it used to, but for these two blocks, it's now a bridge with a freeway underneath it and (obviosuly) no houses.

Check out:

Central Avenue ended then -- as now -- at 7th Street, where it used to become North Cecil Street. Cecil Street was the northern part of what's now called Kings Drive. The red is Central, the blue is Cecil (Kings) and the green is 277/Independece:

[mallguy]

What's up with that cement factory or whatever it is right south of I-277 (the Brookshire part) in Fourth Ward? Couldn't that be valuable real estate? Its demise would not sadden me at all; it is a blight on Charlotte's nice skyline.

Interesting to point out the similarities and differences in Brooklyn, NY vs. Brooklyn in Charlotte.

[redjeep77]

I always thought that "cement factory" was a dog food factory. I believe it used to to have a checkerd "Alpo" on the side. Anyone else remember this? Also another sign/structure i miss is the old coffee sign that used to light up on I-277 near the panthers stadium.

[swampfox43]

I always thought that "cement factory" was a dog food factory. I believe it used to to have a checkerd "Alpo" on the side. Anyone else remember this? Also another sign/structure i miss is the old coffee sign that used to light up on I-277 near the panthers stadium.

You are thinking of the Purina silos that were on North Tryon, just outside the inner loop. I believe they are gone now.

Ahh, yes I remember when they dismantled the JFG coffee billboard. I think that billboard had the longest run of any billboard on the east coast!

[dubone]

277 was a major cause for the loss of connectivity.

I did a detailed study of the 1935 streets compared to the current street layout. Although they are not labeled, you can see the street connections (and presumably the buildings on them) from freeway construction. Interestingly enough, the Greenville neighborhood was affected more than any, as it doesn't have hardly any of its original street network.

Central definitely has not moved, though, but I think most of the traffic pattern people would continue "straight" onto 10th at the five points. Before the recent First Ward revelopment, 10th in Belmont was connected to 9th in First Ward, so I'm sure that was how "Central" was considered to go straight to downtown.

It is also really interesting, like Otherstream pointed out, that current day North King's Drive from Central, past old Central High School/CPCC, was Cecil Street. It ran east of Central High, where it is now "Old King's Drive". So much for a historic name. (I know it was King's in MP, but still).

Here was my source, 1935 map:

http://engbs.co.mecklenburg.nc.us/subdiv/h...Copy_2_1935.jpg

Also, while it is definitely a shame that those old neighborhoods were wiped out, I still believe that the freeways have had a net positive for downtown and the city in general. However, that doesn't mean that their designs aren't awful. They need to eliminate all of the looping interchanges, add bridge connections at least every other block, and improve pedestrian-friendliness. Also, you should note that Brookshire is significanly more efficient and connectivity friendly. Not only did it only take up a single block in width (except at the 77 interchange which clearly wiped out Greenville), but they created cross street connections at almost every cross street. They totally could have fit Belk between Boundary and Hill.

[davidals]

277 was a major cause for the loss of connectivity.

I did a detailed study of the 1935 streets compared to the current street layout. Although they are not labeled, you can see the street connections (and presumably the buildings on them) from freeway construction. Interestingly enough, the Greenville neighborhood was affected more than any, as it doesn't have hardly any of its original street network.

Central definitely has not moved, though, but I think most of the traffic pattern people would continue "straight" onto 10th at the five points. Before the recent First Ward revelopment, 10th in Belmont was connected to 9th in First Ward, so I'm sure that was how "Central" was considered to go straight to downtown.

It is also really interesting, like Otherstream pointed out, that current day North King's Drive from Central, past old Central High School/CPCC, was Cecil Street. It ran east of Central High, where it is now "Old King's Drive". So much for a historic name. (I know it was King's in MP, but still).

Here was my source, 1935 map:

http://engbs.co.mecklenburg.nc.us/subdiv/h...Copy_2_1935.jpg

Also, while it is definitely a shame that those old neighborhoods were wiped out, I still believe that the freeways have had a net positive for downtown and the city in general. However, that doesn't mean that their designs aren't awful. They need to eliminate all of the looping interchanges, add bridge connections at least every other block, and improve pedestrian-friendliness. Also, you should note that Brookshire is significanly more efficient and connectivity friendly. Not only did it only take up a single block in width (except at the 77 interchange which clearly wiped out Greenville), but they created cross street connections at almost every cross street. They totally could have fit Belk between Boundary and Hill.

Greenville suffered some of the same fate as Brooklyn; the idea there was to raze the neighborhood (which was a dense maze of alleys and narrow stone and concrete streets), and rebuild it as a suburban style renewal project, with cul-de-sacs and winding streets, reusing some of the street names from the old neighborhood. I can remember riding through there with my dad when I was a kid (late 70s - seeing I-77 get built right next door), and it was surreal - the streets were still there, but not a building, hardly a tree even, in sight - very apocalyptic.

Brooklyn I think was quitely mourned after the fact by some folks; it was the oldest African-American community, and through the 60s it did fall into a steep decline, though the more commercial end of the area (where Marshall Park and the Govt Complex now is) had at least a few salvageable/restoreable structures. African-american or otherwise, there was a massive, enormous amout of history buldozed between the mid 60s and mid 70s.

Interesting to look at the old maps - if you drive through downtown, there were many lanes and alleyways marked throughout uptown that are still in use, but their names (only) have been abandoned; a few up North Graham, and House Lane near N. Tryon and Liddell, and Garland Ct between Spirit Square and The Public Library - those I remember because for years in the 80s/90s they were still marked, but didn't show on any maps...

[monsoon]

Central definitely has not moved, though, but I think most of the traffic pattern people would continue "straight" onto 10th at the five points. Before the recent First Ward revelopment, 10th in Belmont was connected to 9th in First Ward, so I'm sure that was how "Central" was considered to go straight to downtown.

I should have said eliminated. I drove it many times from downtown out to eastway drive. The first map that I posted shows the difference. Your connections in blue are incorrect as to how Central avenue use to go to downtown as Central in downtown is most likely today's 7th street. It's the angled street from 5 point's to 7th that is gone now. I was told once by an old timer that Central was named as such because it went into Central Charlotte.

None the less in 1975, there were a significant number of victorian homes and WWII style quadraplexs in what is now called the Garden District. Some of those quadraplexes sit right where Tivoli is located today as you could see them from the Brookshire freeway. When they build I-277 they basically flattened everything in that part of the city all around Mcdonald St. an in the portion where Central was eliminated. It was a big grassy field. The first ward of today, bears no resemblance to the street scape, large trees and victorian homes that existed at the time.

[dubone]

Well, Central Avenue has not moved. I'm not sure what more I can do to show that the current map for Central Ave matches the 1935 map but it clearly does.

Anyway, there have been numerous other changes to area that have resulted in the loss of old buildings. Not just in transportation changes, but all sort of reasons led to the removal of almost pretty much all the 19th century buildings uptown, except for a few. I have read that a few of the Fourth Ward houses were moved there from First Ward and other parts of the city. Also, some old houses uptown were relocated out of downtown to other neighborhoods in the city. However, most of them were simply torn down.

It is a good thing we are doing what we can to preserve what remains in Fourth Ward, as well as the early 20th Century houses in Elizabeth, Belmont, Wesley Heights, Dilworth, and others.

[Jerseyman4]

Arlington, VA has a very messed up neighborhood street system due to the I-66 construction that took place a while back.

Looking at south of uptown, that indeed looks very screwed up, i had no idea! In my opinon, its not logical to just demolish the 277 freeway because vehicular traffic counts will always increase. While 277 may not be heavily traveled, the need for mobility around downtown will be there for years to come! When developers see a mini 270 degree beltway around a downtown area, this will eventually allow high rises to be built all around 277 for closer proximity to the major highways (I-77) and the Airport.

While this road could be a big mistake to some, lets look at 277 for the future of what it can offer for new high density development. Charlottes future is bright, not bleak.

[teshadoh]

If anyone is a NC college student, I would encourage you to research the Sanborn catalog for NC & Charlotte. These are late 1800's / early 1900's cadastral maps of a number of cities at a very small scale - view building outlines & ownership / use. Could be revealing to see what was lost in these older neighborhoods:

http://www.lib.unc.edu/ncc/ref/resources/sanborn.html

[Richhamleigh, DC]

If anyone is a NC college student, I would encourage you to research the Sanborn catalog for NC & Charlotte. These are late 1800's / early 1900's cadastral maps of a number of cities at a very small scale - view building outlines & ownership / use. Could be revealing to see what was lost in these older neighborhoods:

http://www.lib.unc.edu/ncc/ref/resources/sanborn.html

EXCELLENT source! I love these maps.

Here's an idea...have NCDOT sell or give away the air rights over the freeways.

277 was a major cause for the loss of connectivity.

I did a detailed study of the 1935 streets compared to the current street layout. Although they are not labeled, you can see the street connections (and presumably the buildings on them) from freeway construction. Interestingly enough, the Greenville neighborhood was affected more than any, as it doesn't have hardly any of its original street network.

Central definitely has not moved, though, but I think most of the traffic pattern people would continue "straight" onto 10th at the five points. Before the recent First Ward revelopment, 10th in Belmont was connected to 9th in First Ward, so I'm sure that was how "Central" was considered to go straight to downtown.

It is also really interesting, like Otherstream pointed out, that current day North King's Drive from Central, past old Central High School/CPCC, was Cecil Street. It ran east of Central High, where it is now "Old King's Drive". So much for a historic name. (I know it was King's in MP, but still).

Here was my source, 1935 map:

http://engbs.co.mecklenburg.nc.us/subdiv/h...Copy_2_1935.jpg

Also, while it is definitely a shame that those old neighborhoods were wiped out, I still believe that the freeways have had a net positive for downtown and the city in general. However, that doesn't mean that their designs aren't awful. They need to eliminate all of the looping interchanges, add bridge connections at least every other block, and improve pedestrian-friendliness. Also, you should note that Brookshire is significanly more efficient and connectivity friendly. Not only did it only take up a single block in width (except at the 77 interchange which clearly wiped out Greenville), but they created cross street connections at almost every cross street. They totally could have fit Belk between Boundary and Hill.

Dubone,

You did a brilliant job with this map.

Thank you!

[swampfox43]

For many, many years, even before I-277, there have always been these concrete stairs that lead from the sidewalk on Stonewall (near McDowell) to a small plot of land just inside the loop. Could this be one of the last remnants of an entry to a Brooklyn home?

I remember back in the 70's when a carnival company use to set up some rides in this area, but I have always wondered what really use to be at the other end of those stairs to nowhere. Anyone know?

Below is an image I snapped from Google Earth showing the location in question. The stairs may not be exactly where I drew the arrow but they are in that general vicinity.

[dubone]

Most certainly they are. There are similar home entry steps scattered throughout. Many parcels have not had any construction since urban renewal. I've actually seen more of that in First Ward, especially on 9th Street near the Hal Marshall complex, and the grassy blocks between Brevard, Caldwell, 7th and 9th.