How is the Grace Church bell tower on Westminster St legal?

[damus]

People have a right to either like or dislike the bells ... saying they cause hearing loss, however, exaggerates the problem IMHO.

Seriously... they really do. I've heard that thing being, at times, that loud.

[runawayjim]

Seriously... they really do. I've heard that thing being, at times, that loud.

have you suffered hearing loss as a direct result of hearing those bells?

[damus]

have you suffered hearing loss as a direct result of hearing those bells?

Not that I know of or can prove, but that's not the point. If I worked in an environment as loud as the corner of Westminster & Matthewson gets at times from the bell, OSHA would probably have me wearing ear muffs.

[jencoleslaw]

yay urban chickens! once we get this bird flu stuff out of the way i'll be helping pass that ordinance that allows for two laying hens. But, i wanted to post that i worked for a few months right across from the church when our offices were on the corner of Westminster and that street the Satin Doll is on (Snow?) and i honestly do not ever remember hearing those bells.

[Shawn_PVD]

If you want to switch with me, let me know. I'd gladly take bells ringing a few times a day over what I deal with now.

It's downtown. It's Westminster Street. You get all those noises you listed AND the addition of these illegal bells.

And a few generally implies a small number. Actually, it's 4 times an hour from what, 7AM to 8PM? And hymns 3 times a day. Nothing legal about it. Anyone else would need to jump through hoops and get a permit to be that loud.

[Shawn_PVD]

what times do the church bells place regularly? i'd like to hear these myself. i don't think church bells are as much of a problem as graffiti though.

Every 15 minutes and hymns at:

9AM

12PM

5PM

I'd be happy to stand outside and call anyone during those times so you can hear what I (and everyone living/working/studying downtown) hear. Better yet, I won't even go outside. I'll call you from inside my office on the 5th floor of the building next to the church.

[westsidedenizen]

It's downtown. It's Westminster Street. You get all those noises you listed AND the addition of these illegal bells.

And a few generally implies a small number. Actually, it's 4 times an hour from what, 7AM to 8PM? And hymns 3 times a day. Nothing legal about it. Anyone else would need to jump through hoops and get a permit to be that loud.

I took classes at URI in the Shepard building for a bunch of years, and I don't ever remember hearing them in the classroom, or outside while I was smoking, for that matter. Granted, I used to smoke on the Washington Steet side, (and have since quit, thank you very much), but I can't think of one instance when I thought that those bells were so loud as to be considered a menace. Except, perhaps, once, when I was carrying my daughter, who had just fallen asleep, directly past the church, and the bells woke her up.

So, I sympathize with you about the noise -- whatever it is that bugs you, be it lawnmowers, leafblowers, horn-honkers, bell-ringers, snowthrowers, motorcycles, church bells, or people unwrapping cough drops in the symphony, noise sucks. For me personally, it isn't so much the noise itself as it is the people making the noise. Obviously, everyone makes noise, but lots of people in my neighborhood make noise without any consideration for how it affects anyone else, and get plenty pissed off when you ask them to turn it down, as if they're entitled to make as much noise as they want, whenever they want.

As for whether or not there are complaints that are more or less valid, I think that's a fool's game. What matters to you is what matters to you, and I can't, and shouldn't try to, convince you that your complaint is more or less important than anyone else's. I can't, however, agree with you about the bells of the church -- they're loud, they probably exceed the legal limit for noise established in the city, they may exceed the limits that OSHA sets for workplaces, but I still like them.

If you feel like you have a valid complaint, take it up with the church, take it up with the city, or soundproof your office or living area. If you are looking for validation that the church bells are a menace and were expecting everyone else on the board to jump to your aid and decry the horrible scourge that is the Grace Church Bells, I think that you're out of luck.

P.S. - I'm not so sure about urban chickens -- I guess I'd be more for it if I weren't allergic to eggs.

[Cotuit]

I agree, they are too loud to be going off four times an hour, and while I'm not quite that sensitive, I can see how people would legitimately feel physical discomfort from them.

I wonder how people would feel about a mosque blaring the call to prayer Downcity. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, but I wonder what the response would be.

[gregw]

To digress a bit, there are already a lot of urban chickens in Providence. I've heard them clucking while I was parked on Broad St. in South Providence, seen them off Camp St. I even once saw a rooster strutting around in the parking lot next to Wanskuck Mills on Branch Ave.

True, urban chickens sound kinda like something out of Seinfeld, but as long as there is no real health reason not to keep them, then why not let people do it. I think some people (I don't mean anyone on UP) get into the habit of saying that one thing is a country thing and another thing is a city thing without examining the validity of making these distinctions.

[jencoleslaw]

we had a problem over here on da hill a few years ago with a HUGE (for an urban back yard) full of very unkempt chickens and the smell all up and down the block (and the next block over) was awful! When i lived in fox point someone had a rooster and i LOVED (really!) hearing that guy every morning. I miss fox point. maybe when it comes time to buy again i'll look over there

[urbie]

So, I sympathize with you about the noise -- whatever it is that bugs you, be it lawnmowers, leafblowers, horn-honkers, bell-ringers, snowthrowers, motorcycles, church bells, or people unwrapping cough drops in the symphony, noise sucks. For me personally, it isn't so much the noise itself as it is the people making the noise.

I'd be willing to accept a ban on church bells if it were accompanied by a ban on hip-hop. THAT can actually hurt your ears, from several cars away at a stoplight. How much hearing do the kids have left, who play it in their cars? (And yes, I realize that some of these idiots have their speakers aimed outward, so that sh*t is actually louder outside the car than inside. Do they think people like that, or what?)

Urb

[damus]

I'd be willing to accept a ban on church bells if it were accompanied by a ban on hip-hop. THAT can actually hurt your ears, from several cars away at a stoplight. How much hearing do the kids have left, who play it in their cars? (And yes, I realize that some of these idiots have their speakers aimed outward, so that sh*t is actually louder outside the car than inside. Do they think people like that, or what?)

Urb

A lot of cities (Providence included) do have bans on loud music (I think it's $200, but you just go to Cracker Jack Judge Caprio and tell him you're "guilty with an explanation" or whatever and pay the court fees when you actually do get ticketed). Yeah they think people like that, it's like a contest with these morons who can get the best sound system. That said, the bells are extremely loud, much louder than any other church bells I've heard. The problem is exasberated by the fact that there are buildings surrounding most of the church, amplifying the noise.

[runawayjim]

A lot of cities (Providence included) do have bans on loud music (I think it's $200, but you just go to Cracker Jack Judge Caprio and tell him you're "guilty with an explanation" or whatever and pay the court fees when you actually do get ticketed). Yeah they think people like that, it's like a contest with these morons who can get the best sound system. That said, the bells are extremely loud, much louder than any other church bells I've heard. The problem is exasberated by the fact that there are buildings surrounding most of the church, amplifying the noise.

loud music isn't bad... loud hip hop is, especially when it shakes windows and cars and sets off car alarms (i've seen/heard it happen). of course most people who listen to rock music don't really need other people hearing it.

i have to hang around when these bells go off... i can understand not having them go off every 15 min, but once an hour on the hour should be a good enough compromise...

[brick]

I'd be willing to accept a ban on church bells if it were accompanied by a ban on hip-hop. THAT can actually hurt your ears, from several cars away at a stoplight. How much hearing do the kids have left, who play it in their cars? (And yes, I realize that some of these idiots have their speakers aimed outward, so that sh*t is actually louder outside the car than inside. Do they think people like that, or what?)

Urb

Just as a random rant, a guy on my street has a girlfriend who loves to use her remote staarter after they have whatever rendezvous they are having for the evening...typically at about 2-3 AM. this wouldn't bother me except for the fact that she leaves her radio on at about 150 dB and the bass can actually shake my headboard as I sleep if she is parked close enough.

[runawayjim]

Just as a random rant, a guy on my street has a girlfriend who loves to use her remote staarter after they have whatever rendezvous they are having for the evening...typically at about 2-3 AM. this wouldn't bother me except for the fact that she leaves her radio on at about 150 dB and the bass can actually shake my headboard as I sleep if she is parked close enough.

you should definitely call the cops on that one.

[BBascule]

I can't believe that church is allowed to create THAT much noise THAT many times a day.

We're past the 17th century where the nearest farm was 4 miles away. There are condos, classrooms, offices and a hotel within a block in all directions. Those bells are LOUD.

Even worse are the 10 minute blocks of hymns at 9AM, 12PM and 5PM...

If I were playing my stereo that loud every 15 minutes, I'd have a police visit.

Yesterday a co-worker and I were walking past Grace Church on Mathewson Street right around noon and the bells were so loud that it literally was dizzying. I've been to a ton of rock shows with extremely loud bands, so I'm sort of deaf to begin with. It was so overpowering that we were laughing about it, but I feel sorry for the folks who have to hear it all day long.

There must be one very muscular hunchback living in the tower.

PS - I'm not from the Anti-Bell Movement or the Pro-Bell Consortium.

[damus]

PS - I'm not from the Anti-Bell Movement or the Pro-Bell Consortium.

lol... nice way to put it

[Jerry2]

Yesterday a co-worker and I were walking past Grace Church on Mathewson Street right around noon and the bells were so loud that it literally was dizzying. I've been to a ton of rock shows with extremely loud bands, so I'm sort of deaf to begin with. It was so overpowering that we were laughing about it, but I feel sorry for the folks who have to hear it all day long.

There must be one very muscular hunchback living in the tower.

PS - I'm not from the Anti-Bell Movement or the Pro-Bell Consortium.

I thought that the complainers were being extra ridiculous insinuating that the Grace Bell was overpowering and a detriment to the area. However, after walking down Westminster Sunday, just as the bell was going off, I can tell you it was annoying as hell......What if you work 3rd shift and sleep during the day? The canyonness of Westminster carried the sound all the way to Dorrance with ease. That would drive me even more crazy than I already am if I had to listen to that day in and day out...

[RagtimeOldtyme]

I find an analogy here in an experiment held at a fairground. One individual was playing traditional fairground music on a traditional device at the normal volume. Then some people a couple booths over complained about the noise. So, being fairly considerate, the person playing the music shut their device off. A little while later, the people in question complaining about the music then proceeded to set up some enormous speakers and blast newer music at a higher volume. The first person decided to do a little testing. They went over to the second party in question, bearing a decibel meter in their hand, and proceeded to take a reading from the speakers. Then (with the grudging agreement of the second party), had them shut off their music long enough to play one tune on the first device and take another reading.

It was discovered that the complaining party's own music was noticeably louder than the original offender in question

Rather peeved at being caught in their own preference, the complaining party then offered as explanation "Well, we don't like your music anyway." AHA! There is the problem!

It is not the VOLUME level of the music that is such a problem, but PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

That being said, however, it is important to keep in mind that the church mentioned here is probably rather older than the buildings around it, whether they be hotels, apartments, classrooms, businesses, etc. When it was new, there probably wasn't a whole lot in the direct vicinity of the church. If it is really old, there was probably no "canned music" blaring, quietly or not, in shops and restaurants. The townspeople probably welcomed a regular melody to help set the rhythm of the day and call them to worship. Then later on, most of the other buildings sprung up around the church, with the result being that the once-pleasant far-off music is painfully close and deafening. It is not really the residents' fault. They didn't put the buildings there; they are just using them now because they are there. I can totally see where the complainer is coming from. Even if the music's nice and all, even if it is something the listener enjoys hearing, I doubt I'd want to hear it at a deafening volume.

I often wonder why much of popular music is so loud. Why do rock bands have the volume turned up so high? Is it to drown out a rude and inattentive audience that is making lots of noise? Is it so that a 3-piece ensemble can try to compete with a symphony orchestra playing fortissimo? Is it merely personal preference dictating volume again, turning the level up to drown out music they DON'T want to hear? I asked a DJ playing for dancers this once, and she had no explanation. Despite being fairly up-to-date in the times and reasonably versed in rock history, she was unable to offer any explanation.

Even listening to my favorite types of music, which are reasonably expressive (with softs and louds), I almost NEVER have the volume turned up so high that it is painful. That can damage your hearing!

I propose that enough of you make a big stink that the city/church can work together to lower the volume of the bells. Unlike a modern synthetic bell setup (with megaphone-type speakers) found in many churches and towers now, a mechanical carillon doesn't have an easy "volume control" type of adjustment. However, it is usually possible to make the bells softer without turning them off /disusing them entirely. One way to do that is to decrease the lift distance of the bell hammers. Less lift = less volume. Another way is to use lighter hammers, though this may conflict with the originality/functionality of the setup. There are a few tower clock / carillon experts/restorers around who can make a service call and modify/adjust as needed until the decibel level is pleasant. One is here. (). Please note: I am in no way affiliated with this company and am not really trying to do advertising for them. I am merely using them as an example that there are firms out there who know what they're doing.

A manually-played carillon (the kind with the lever-type keyboard, played with the fists) is rather rare these days, and if big enough, can be considered a serious performing/concert instrument. The Cornell Chimes are a good example of this. () Of course, buildings all around a tower, with hard reflective surfaces, are not conducive to a mellow sound, and often can actually turn what was merely loud into being head-splitting. Other carillons don't always have this problem, since they are sometimes located in parks or grassy country areas where the sound can dissipate into the air and carry for a distance without being directed into someone's window by a nearby building.