South Carolina's Cities (Healthy cities vs not So Healthy)

[teshadoh]

^ Not to mention the Census Bureau's estimation methodology is suspect. They use zip codes to geocode permit data, & often ignore non-taxable citizens (besides the homeless, but students)

[Spartan]

Interesting. I did not know that! Its hard to include transient populations like students and homeless in estimations though. That can vary widely from year to year.

[goodbye]

If anyone thinks that any of the major cities in SC is unhealthy, they haven't been there to witness for themselves. The trend across the South is equally impressive, if not moreso than in our state's best cities. The exact numbers are not as important as our ability to maintain a long-term successful rate of attracting new jobs and creating new industries. Long-term growth at any rate is something to be proud of, and eventually will payoff in larger dividends (as we are beginning to see state-wide).

[krazeeboi]

I think that it really is best to look at core county populations to judge the health of our cities due to our stringent annexation laws; this would also go for cities that are actively annexing, such as Charleston and Columbia. We have no core county declines, we have no metro area declines; all in all, our Big Three are rather healthy centers of urban and economic activity.

[teshadoh]

As mentioned earlier - here are some 1990 / 2000 Census Block level comparisons. I used the 5 mile spatial query - any other suggestions would be entertained.

My intent of course, as the thread title suggests, to indicate how much population the city has grown. Rather than using a municipal boundary, that can be interpreted any number of ways, a 5 mile population would not only indicate the population of the city center, but inner-ring & even newer suburban growth as well.

City / 1990 / 2000

Charleston 90,012 / 88879

Columbia 139,872 / 134710

Greenville 130,316 / 124,177

Spartanburg 80,740 / 78784

Rock Hill 54,684 / 62741

Spartanburg 80,740 / 78784

Myrtle Beach 25,766 / 25850

One thing to keep in mind, larger cities will experience less growth than smaller cities. One big reason, there is more open land within a 5 mile perimeter of a smaller city like Rock Hill. But even then, I think a more traditional identity of a city is within a 5 mile area - so here it is, SC cities struggled through the 1990's, despite large county gains. People just didn't want to live in or near the city - especially with abundant inexpensive rural land.

But what happened in SC can be mirrored in most states, so don't consider this an indictment. Especially if gains are occuring in this decade, hopefully we'll see something different in 2010.

[krazeeboi]

Really interesting stats. Seemed as though Columbia and Greenville experienced more "city-flight" than Charleston, which should be expected given the strength of Charleston's core. Charleston's number is also a little lower due to its location, with downtown being on the peninsula--no one lives in the ocean. I would also think that Rock Hill's 8,000 gain was due to infill.

I guess Spartanburg's stats bore repeating.

[teshadoh]

^ I lived a little over 5 miles out of Rock Hill & just to the west of my subdivision was a farm as it still is. Considering subdivisions that are 5 miles out of RH include Woodforest, subdivisions along India Hook Rd & even towns outside of RH like Red River & Leslie are within 5 miles, there is plenty of rural land to develop.

I just don't know of a comparable figure to examine smaller sized cities versus larger ones. As one criticism mentioned lately involves Atlanta's core counties of Dekalb & Fulton as not growing 'as fast' as outer counties, that is simply due to a completely different size of city. It's hard to compare what is 10 miles outside of New York City, as it is in Atlanta, Charlotte, Columbia, Rock Hill or Orangeburg.

[krazeeboi]

Good points.

[flotown]

Anybody who has lived in Florence for at least 10-20 years knows that the "official" population numbers are a joke. There are new subdivisions going up all over town, unfortunately, they are all outside the city limits. The way that Florence's erratic boundry lines are drawn, you can be driving down 2nd Loop Road (a main thoroughfare on the south side of town) and go in and out of the city limits two times. Some of the largest subdivisions in the city aren't even in the city, and thus are not counted in the population. The true population of the area that most Florentines consider "Florence" is closer to 50,000.

[distortedlogic]

Agreed. I have a lot of family in Florence, and have been there many times. It is similar to Greenville in this way (neighborhoods just ouside city limits). Although the DT area looks a little rough, it is at the very early stages of a comeback. The rest of the town has grown nicely over the past 10 years.

[Spartan]

Really interesting stats. Seemed as though Columbia and Greenville experienced more "city-flight" than Charleston, which should be expected given the strength of Charleston's core. Charleston's number is also a little lower due to its location, with downtown being on the peninsula--no one lives in the ocean. I would also think that Rock Hill's 8,000 gain was due to infill.

I guess Spartanburg's stats bore repeating.

I don't mind though, because I think a lot of people undervalue what Spartanburg is in comparison to places like Rock Hill, Florence, Anderson, Sumter, and other cities that are qualified at that 'second tier' level. I personally think that Spartanburg is at a higher level than these other cities.

That said, (and after thinking about it some) I think you could make the arguement that in Spartanburg's case, it is not a healthy city. That's not to say its sick or dying, just that it's got a cold. If you look at the city at a 5 mile radius from downtown you will find a fair amount of blighted area, particularly north of town towards the 85/26 interchange (that's Fairforest for locals). That area not only excedes the city limits but it does capture a large portion of what most would consider the older parts of Spartanburg. In all honesty it is an unsafe and gross part of town. I generally avoid it if at all possible at night. The slightl decline in population is not what makes me think of it as unhealthy though.

I think that for a city to be healthy you need to have a good distribution of all types of neighborhoods (be it income, race, whatever). Right now, Spartanburg has a concentration of bad ones northwest and south of the center of town, so it skews things somewhat. A population increase is not the sole qualifier, though it doesn't hurt. You need to address income levels. if they are too low, its probably not healthy.

I think it is important to use a non-political boundary, such as this 5-mile buffer (maybe larger though), to establish these facts. It is a much better equalizer than city limits.

The greater Spartanburg area is relatively healthy though, so don't misunderstand my comments.

I would also qualify that the 'center' of Myrtle Beach is on the coastline, so half of its 5 mile area is ocean. I am not certain how to account for that though. Perhaps a 10 mile buffer instead?

[monsoon]

I would also qualify that the 'center' of Myrtle Beach is on the coastline, so half of its 5 mile area is ocean. I am not certain how to account for that though. Perhaps a 10 mile buffer instead?

This is why drawing a circle around an arbitrary point and counting the people inside of it is not really good way to determine what is going on with a city. Especially for coastal cities like Myrtle Beach, Charleston, and Mt. Pleasant. The thing about city boundries is they tend to take geographic and other limitations in to account. Also the census data presented above is over 6 years old so I don't think it is that useful to what is going on today. I do agree that directly comparing cities based on municipal boundries is also problematic, but I think it is more relevant especially since there is more current data.

[motonenterprises]

For the person stating that Rock Hill is larger than Greenville based on city limit population. If you have been to both cities then you know that Rock Hill in reality is no where near the size of Greenville which has an urban area of 302,000+ people.

[g-man430]

For the person stating that Rock Hill is larger than Greenville based on city limit population. If you have been to both cities then you know that Rock Hill in reality is no where near the size of Greenville which has an urban area of 302,000+ people.

Whoever said Rock Hill is bigger than Greenville is; well you know the rest. Wow, look how much bigger Rock Hill's downtown is than Greenville's. Wow, Rock Hill's airport is so much bigger than GSP.

[monsoon]

Whoever said Rock Hill is bigger than Greenville is; well you know the rest. Wow, look how much bigger Rock Hill's downtown is than Greenville's. Wow, Rock Hill's airport is so much bigger than GSP.

Rock Hill's commercial airport is Charlotte-Douglass airport. Are you saying that it is smaller than Greenville-Spartanburg?

[g-man430]

Rock Hill's commercial airport is Charlotte-Douglass airport. Are you saying that it is smaller than Greenville-Spartanburg?

No, of course not. Charlotte's airport is a lot bigger than GSP. If Rock Hill had its own airport, it would most likely be smaller than GSP is what I meant to say.

[Greenville]

I wonder what people here would think if I started arguing that Greer should get light rail before Columbia? Pretty silly, huh?

[krazeeboi]

I don't think anyone here said that Rock Hill should get light rail before any other SC city. Hell, we don't even know if it's coming for sure. The simple facts are that Rock Hill is a bigger municipality than Greenville, although a much smaller city in the truest since of the word, and that a LRT/Trolley system may come to the city. If a study shows that this will be feasible (and will actually work) and will help to prevent Rock Hill from becoming Charlotte's Marietta, then I'm all for it and will be happy about it.

[monsoon]

I wonder what people here would think if I started arguing that Greer should get light rail before Columbia? Pretty silly, huh?

If you think it's silly to put transit in the Greenville/Spartanburg area, then so be it. However I don't see what that has to do with Rock Hill's plans.

[goodbye]

I hope to see all major cities and metro areas have rail transit options someday. This will be a huge step in the right direction as we try to get away from gas-guzzling automobiles.

Hopefully, before then, we'll also have cars and trucks running on a much more efficient and clean fuel source. We already know that Michelin has developed the airless tire of the near future (10-15 years). It is called the "Tweel" and was engineered and developed in Greenville. This is one example of the research and development being accomplished in SC to take us into the 21st Century we all want to see.

[motonenterprises]

Rock Hill's commercial airport is Charlotte-Douglass airport. Are you saying that it is smaller than Greenville-Spartanburg?

What if Greenville were to annex its city limits to the size of Rock Hill are Mount Pleasant? See how silly it sounds to say those cities are larger than Greenville? Rock Hill in my opinion feels smaller than Spartanburg and Anderson.

[Spartan]

^ Thats because it is...

[krazeeboi]

Motonenterprises, in terms of the sizes of the municipalities, Rock Hill is indeed more populous than Greenville. That is a fact. But we all know that in terms of the TRUE cities of Rock Hill and Greenville, Greenville wins that contest hands down.

Rock Hill's urbanized area is about the same as Anderson's (~70K). It is about half of the size of Spartanburg's. I'm sure when the next UA figures are released, Rock Hill will have pulled ahead of Anderson, as both Rock Hill and York County have been adding people faster than Anderson and Anderson County.

[motonenterprises]

Motonenterprises, in terms of the sizes of the municipalities, Rock Hill is indeed more populous than Greenville. That is a fact. But we all know that in terms of the TRUE cities of Rock Hill and Greenville, Greenville wins that contest hands down.

Rock Hill's urbanized area is about the same as Anderson's (~70K). It is about half of the size of Spartanburg's. I'm sure when the next UA figures are released, Rock Hill will have pulled ahead of Anderson, as both Rock Hill and York County have been adding people faster than Anderson and Anderson County.

Just making sure you knew.

[krazeeboi]

As long as you've been posting here, you should know how common of a fact that is around here.