Mt Pleasant Is now South Carolina's 5th largest city

[krazeeboi]

However, the metro area of Chas is the fastest growing in the state, and the population increases in the core city and the cities surrounding it help emphasize this trend. Will Chas edge out Cola for the largest city in SC by 2010? Who knows, but the race is sure fun to watch!

If I'm not mistaken, I thought Myrtle Beach was the fastest growing metro in the state. Of the Big Three, that honor definitely goes to Charleston though.

I think we should also keep in mind that these are Census estimates. According to Riley's State of the City address, Charleston's population was around 115,000. So as sonofaque86 said, I guess it depends on which source you wish to use.

I would hate to see Greenville's ranking fall further and further behind although the reality is nothing of the sort. However, people really do take municipal figures as gospel, which doesn't work in our favor in this state--which is why I think it's important that Greenville be more aggressive as far as annexation is concerned. Same goes for Spartanburg.

[g-man430]

Greenville wants to be aggressive with annexation; Spartanburg too, but South Carolina won't let them. This state must hate the upstate for some reason. I can't figure out why. Maybe their just jealous, because we have a really nice downtown or something like that.

[teshadoh]

Greenville wants to be aggressive with annexation; Spartanburg too, but South Carolina won't let them. This state must hate the upstate for some reason. I can't figure out why. Maybe their just jealous, because we have a really nice downtown or something like that.

No. It's not that at all. All SC cities have to follow the same SC state laws. The reason Greenville & Spartanburg have the greatest difficulties has more to do with them being mostly surrounded by existing development. Cities like Rock & Charleston, among others - annex undeveloped land. Either the land is in the process of being developed, or at least adjoining parcels are to be developed, therefore those could be annexed. This isn't just in SC either, also in GA - as a municipality either has the choice to aggressively annex undeveloped property in the hopes that it leads to future growth (which can ultimately be annexed) or allow their municipal boundaries to lie dormant.

And either option is not always the better option - it doesn't always hurt a city to not annex. In Greenville's case, it might be a smarter decision to not - the ratio of commercial / residential property is likely on the higher taxable commercial side & it also means fewer services are requirred for residential tax payers. In an aggressive annexing city - it can easily mean the municipality outstretches itself & provides poorer services than it did before. It requires a lot of money to expand into unserved areas - to purchase new fire departments, parks, & expand existing services.

The biggest issue that all of use are discussing - on this & other internet boards is our ego.

[gs3]

And either option is not always the better option - it doesn't always hurt a city to not annex. In Greenville's case, it might be a smarter decision to not - the ratio of commercial / residential property is likely on the higher taxable commercial side & it also means fewer services are requirred for residential tax payers. In an aggressive annexing city - it can easily mean the municipality outstretches itself & provides poorer services than it did before. It requires a lot of money to expand into unserved areas - to purchase new fire departments, parks, & expand existing services.

The biggest issue that all of use are discussing - on this & other internet boards is our ego.

Very well said teshadoh! I've held this same view for some time, and am probably in the minority as NOT wanting Greenville to annex. Greenville enjoys a high quality of life and in my opinion, annexing could hurt this. Why mess with a great thing? I've said it before, give me a city of 50,000 with high QOL anyday before a city of 350,000 with lower QOL. My ego can easily handle that!

[GvilleSC]

Very well said teshadoh! I've held this same view for some time, and am probably in the minority as NOT wanting Greenville to annex. Greenville enjoys a high quality of life and in my opinion, annexing could hurt this. Why mess with a great thing? I've said it before, give me a city of 50,000 with high QOL anyday before a city of 350,000 with lower QOL. My ego can easily handle that!

I think "smart" annexation is in order. I'd hate to see the city run wild and dig itself a hole and lower our great quality of life, but slow and steady will win the race for us. The race not to become the largest, but the race to keep our high QOL and grow at the same time. So then we don't have to say "Greenville... SC's largest county, 10th largest city in the state!" No one will get excited about that unless youre in a state like Texas...

[Spartan]

Charleston and Columbia both control their water systems, so if people want to connect, they have to agree to annex into the city at some point. Greenville and Spartanburg do not directly control their water systems.

I know that Spartanburg controls its sewer system, which it uses in a similar manner- but that only stretches so far.

Greer, Rock Hill, and a few others control their water systems too. Greer requires annexation to have access to its water, which is why it is so large and stringy on a map.

So, the point is that agreesive cities can annex becuase they control the infrastructure needed to support develpment.

[krazeeboi]

Very well said teshadoh! I've held this same view for some time, and am probably in the minority as NOT wanting Greenville to annex. Greenville enjoys a high quality of life and in my opinion, annexing could hurt this. Why mess with a great thing? I've said it before, give me a city of 50,000 with high QOL anyday before a city of 350,000 with lower QOL. My ego can easily handle that!

This doesn't have to be an either/or situation. I don't think Raleigh, for example, has experienced a decline in its quality of life, and approximately 45% of Wake County's population resides in city limits. If anything, getting more of the population into city limits gives the city greater control over zoning and land use. I don't think it's a coincidence that Greenville with its low population relative to the county and metro population has some of the worst sprawl in the nation. Bond ratings are also affected by a low population, especially considering the greater population that is actually served. Essentially 400,000 get to enjoy services that only 50,000 people pay for. While the cost will never be equally spread out over the entire population, certainly the share should be much greater than that.

[distortedlogic]

I think "smart" annexation is in order. I'd hate to see the city run wild and dig itself a hole and lower our great quality of life, but slow and steady will win the race for us. The race not to become the largest, but the race to keep our high QOL and grow at the same time. So then we don't have to say "Greenville... SC's largest county, 10th largest city in the state!" No one will get excited about that unless youre in a state like Texas...

I agree with this. With the growth of places like Summerville, Sumter, Goose Creek, and even Greer and Mauldin, it is possible that by 2020 Gville may not be in the top ten in the state which is absolutely NUTS! There are places within a few hundred yards of our CBD that aren't even in the city limits. Try driving towards DT on 123, you won't see the city limits sign until you get to Pendleton St. Drive into Gville on Pete Hollis and you aren't in the city until 2 or 3 redlight before the library. This is BEYOND REDICULOUS!! I doubt that could be said of any other city our size in the country, possible even the world. If Gville were to annex the berea and taylors areas (I know it will never happen) it would add like 60 tto 70K, for a total of about 120k. That would be a much better representation (size and pop) of what we are. The city might not make much off of taxes in berea now, but it is only a matter of time before new neighborhoods and developers get going there.

[GvilleSC]

Charleston and Columbia both control their water systems, so if people want to connect, they have to agree to annex into the city at some point. Greenville and Spartanburg do not directly control their water systems.

I know that Spartanburg controls its sewer system, which it uses in a similar manner- but that only stretches so far.

Greer, Rock Hill, and a few others control their water systems too. Greer requires annexation to have access to its water, which is why it is so large and stringy on a map.

So, the point is that agreesive cities can annex becuase they control the infrastructure needed to support develpment.

There was consideration a while back about the city requiring annexation if you want water- i think... anyway, it went to vote and i think it might have failed? or if not, then we aren't seeing the benefits...

[goodbye]

I agree with this. With the growth of places like Summerville, Sumter, Goose Creek, and even Greer and Mauldin, it is possible that by 2020 Gville may not be in the top ten in the state which is absolutely NUTS! There are places within a few hundred yards of our CBD that aren't even in the city limits. Try driving towards DT on 123, you won't see the city limits sign until you get to Pendleton St. Drive into Gville on Pete Hollis and you aren't in the city until 2 or 3 redlight before the library. This is BEYOND REDICULOUS!! I doubt that could be said of any other city our size in the country, possible even the world. If Gville were to annex the berea and taylors areas (I know it will never happen) it would add like 60 tto 70K, for a total of about 120k. That would be a much better representation (size and pop) of what we are. The city might not make much off of taxes in berea now, but it is only a matter of time before new neighborhoods and developers get going there.

Calm down guys, please. What you all are losing sight of is the fact that the City of Greenville is growing, and will continue, though perhaps at a slower pace than others in this state. That doesn't make it any less large in actuality, just technicality. What we will continue to see happen (since it is already happening) is more of the higher density mixed-use and residential developments throughout the city. Because more people are moving to the area for jobs, school, high quality living, and etc, our city will experience higher density growth as annexation efforts remain slow. Iterest in living within the city is on a major upswing, and that trend is being met with fantastic standards set in place to ensure the success of any new urban project. I for one am very excited to see - in person - the positive progression we are experiencing, regardless of how others see it on paper.

[monsoon]

If anyone looked at the estimates spreadsheet listed for the SC cities, they list population estimates for 267 localities. Of that 126, close to 1/2 lost population since 2000. Some of the more notible examples.

• Beaufort -460

• Forest Acres -540

• Spartanburg -1416

• Sumter -782

• Union -461

There are vast areas of the state that are not seeing any population growth or are losing population. For example in the area between the Charlotte Metro and Myrtle Beach, 186 miles, only Florence added a little less than 800 people over the past five years. Hartsville, Pageland, Jefferson Marion, McBee and Darlington all lost people or added less than 20.

[Greenville]

I don't really care how big our city is on paper, because life isn't lived on paper. Most people who see Greenville firsthand absolutely LOVE it. The quality of life is extremely high, the population is diverse for a Southern city, the cost of living is low, etc. The fact remains that the metro is growing at an impressive rate, and top-notch companies continue to relocate to Greenville. These things are MUCH more important than city population. The Greenville Journal recently had a piece about how "Greenville is now being compared to Richmond, VA and Birmingham, AL in terms of economics, size, and structure." If city limit population mattered one iota, these things wouldn't be happening.

Greenville gets underestimated at times, I think - even in this forum. It doesn't have the historical importance of Charleston, it isn't the state capital like Colulmbia, and it isn't a vacation desination like Myrtle Beach. It often only gets credit for being anything because it is located between Atlanta and Charlotte, and often the "horrible sprawl" is the first thing mentioned as a criticism. But we take it in stride, knowing that we're on to something in Greenville. We are happy doing our own thing. If a few people who look at city populations judge us solely based on that, it's their loss.

[gs3]

I don't really care how big our city is on paper, because life isn't lived on paper.

That's just simply the best statement! Period! Ever!

[g-man430]

I couldn't agree with you more.

[krazeeboi]

I'm surprised Beaufort lost people. I imagine the majority of the growth down there is occurring on the island and in the unincorporated parts of the county.

And I don't think this particular thread is necessarily "underestimating" Greenville; it's just that I feel as though this is an area in which the city could be a bit more aggressive. The city is doing a lot of things right, but there are always areas in which a city could do better. It just frustrates me as a South Carolinian, knowing that most people are driven and affected by perception rather than the reality. There's a world map in the biology building on campus (Winthrop), and South Carolina just looks so pitiful compared to North Carolina as far as our cities go. The lettering of the cities is based on municipal population, and if you were unfamiliar with South Carolina, you'd swear we have no real cities in the state based on that, being that we only have two cities over 100K in municipal population, when we have at least 5 cities with urbanized areas of 100K+. As teshadoh said, it can definitely be an ego issue, but in a state like ours we need all the ego stroking we can get. We're one of the poorest states in the nation with one of the highest unemployment rates and a public education system that is in shambles; the least we could get is proper recognition for the TRUE size of our cities. Although we know what the reality is concerning that, I think we should also do as much to influence the perception so that it lines up with the reality as closely as possible. Also, such sentiments about quality of life vs. population, while understandable, basically amount to a justification of laws that are more reflective of 19th century South Carolina than 21st century South Carolina. I highly doubt Greenville would have a population of only 55K if our extremely archaic annexation laws had been updated long ago. Life might not be lived on paper, but our cities (and our state as a whole) sure as hell don't look good on paper either.

[Spartan]

All the growth in Beaufort is passing over the City of Beafort and Port Royal too, for the most part. Its mostly in the Hilton Head and Bluffton area.

[goodbye]

...Life might not be lived on paper, but our cities (and our state as a whole) sure as hell don't look good on paper either.

I can print off several sites on the Internet so we'll look real good on paper!

[Charleston native]

All the growth in Beaufort is passing over the City of Beafort and Port Royal too, for the most part. Its mostly in the Hilton Head and Bluffton area.

Yes, Beaufort is really dropping the ball as far as getting the economic boost the county's growth could give the city. They haven't even started any annexation drives.

[Greenville]

I'm surprised Beaufort lost people. I imagine the majority of the growth down there is occurring on the island and in the unincorporated parts of the county.

And I don't think this particular thread is necessarily "underestimating" Greenville; it's just that I feel as though this is an area in which the city could be a bit more aggressive. The city is doing a lot of things right, but there are always areas in which a city could do better. It just frustrates me as a South Carolinian, knowing that most people are driven and affected by perception rather than the reality. There's a world map in the biology building on campus (Winthrop), and South Carolina just looks so pitiful compared to North Carolina as far as our cities go. The lettering of the cities is based on municipal population, and if you were unfamiliar with South Carolina, you'd swear we have no real cities in the state based on that, being that we only have two cities over 100K in municipal population, when we have at least 5 cities with urbanized areas of 100K+. As teshadoh said, it can definitely be an ego issue, but in a state like ours we need all the ego stroking we can get. We're one of the poorest states in the nation with one of the highest unemployment rates and a public education system that is in shambles; the least we could get is proper recognition for the TRUE size of our cities. Although we know what the reality is concerning that, I think we should also do as much to influence the perception so that it lines up with the reality as closely as possible. Also, such sentiments about quality of life vs. population, while understandable, basically amount to a justification of laws that are more reflective of 19th century South Carolina than 21st century South Carolina. I highly doubt Greenville would have a population of only 55K if our extremely archaic annexation laws had been updated long ago. Life might not be lived on paper, but our cities (and our state as a whole) sure as hell don't look good on paper either.

I guess it's all about what each person's goals are for their metro and the state of South Carolina. Some people are shooting for their city to be the best in SC, others want their city to be more recognized regionally, or even nationally. But the cruel reality is that, nationally, most people are not familiar with South Carolina or our big 3 metros. Heck, many people don't even know the difference between NC and SC, and instead just refer to it all as "Carolina." They picture rural towns, farms, simple lives, and people of inferior intelligence. They expect racial tension, country music, and NASCAR. Perhaps they think of the beach, or golf, or possibly about Gone with the Wind. Regardless of their perceptions, what they think it is usually differs from reality.

But you know what? Our big three could all be in the top 30 in terms of city population, and most people still wouldn't know or care. Most people don't look at maps with cities on them, unless they are perhaps planning a trip through the region. How many South Carolinians know which one of the Dakotas has Mount Rushmore? How many know what the weather is like in Denver, CO? How many realize that Las Vegas essentially doubled its population from one census to the next? I doubt many people have a clue about the country outside of their own city. Surprisingly, many people don't even know what is going on in other parts of their state. This is a country where people are more aware of who won American Idol than who ran for President in the last election. Pretty sad, huh?

All we can do is carry ourselves confidently when we go out into the world, being proud of who we are and the state we represent. We need to watch what we say, as well as how we say it. We need to think about the impression we're leaving on people. THAT is the way to counter the preconceived notions people have. That will carry a lot more weight with people than whether or not our metros are talked about on national television. It will take some time, but that is the only way.

[Spartan]

Good points, but those of us who are aware might want to know these facts, and when we see that Mount Pleasant- a suburb- is one of the largest cities in SC.... it makes us ponder. If Columbia and Charleston loose their place then I might start to worry.

[distortedlogic]

Well said Greenville

[krazeeboi]

Your second paragraph, Greenville, is dead-on, and it's rather unfortunate. Sometimes I keep forgetting that a lot of people aren't geographic/urban/statistics geeks like ourselves. But I still want SC to at least have 3 cities with six-figure populations, and I don't want one of those cities to be a friggin' suburb.

[goodbye]

Good points, but those of us who are aware might want to know these facts, and when we see that Mount Pleasant- a suburb- is one of the largest cities in SC.... it makes us ponder. If Columbia and Charleston loose their place then I might start to worry.

I could be wrong, but I believe our major cities will always remain just that. Growth in the suburbs can and probably will have an end too, right? What I see is that the money and power is in the urban cores, our larger "cities," and when (or before) no more annexation can occur, people will continue to desire the higher quality of life and big city ammenities, causing the developments to become more and more dense, which will provide a more satisfying status symbol for both the skyline freaks, and the paper stats junkies. In my opinion, from decades of personal observation, we are already moving in that direction, despite the current trend in the suburbs. I for one am pleased with the higher numbers of people moving into our metros and finding a welcome home in SC. Someday soon the trend will be in overwhelming favor of the cities and a better life.

[scoop]

I could be wrong, but I believe our major cities will always remain just that. Growth in the suburbs can and probably will have an end too, right? What I see is that the money and power is in the urban cores, our larger "cities," and when (or before) no more annexation can occur, people will continue to desire the higher quality of life and big city ammenities, causing the developments to become more and more dense, which will provide a more satisfying status symbol for both the skyline freaks, and the paper stats junkies. In my opinion, from decades of personal observation, we are already moving in that direction, despite the current trend in the suburbs. I for one am pleased with the higher numbers of people moving into our metros and finding a welcome home in SC. Someday soon the trend will be in overwhelming favor of the cities and a better life.

Your're right Sky. Here in the Atlanta metro, Atlanta has around 1/2 million people in it's borders, factor in the subs and you get around 4 million.

This is seemingly a southern thing. LA, NY, ChiTown and some other U.S. cities have hugh city areas, while we tend to have multiple counties/cities on top of and competing against each other. Many southern cities are boxed in and have to conform to the limited landscape available to them.

I feel your frustration.

[CorgiMatt]

People not from Columbia still don't understand how right across the bridge is a entirely seperate city from Columbia..I have to always explain it too them. it really is silly lol.

Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas and St. Louis and East St. Louis are the same way, except that is is the state line that separates them instead of a county line.