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Allusions is a strong word, the proposal mentions the Triangle in a sinlge sentence out of 18 pages - in respect to partnering with the new North Carolina China Center to attract an international presence to their engineering/technological facilities. Again, maybe the planners are morons, but the Triad continues to grow at a rate above the national average (if less than CLT and RDU), and therefore grows more to a common center, especially with center towns like Kernersville growing quickly as well. If this "city" is built piece-meal, it can work, and might help shape future growth better in the area. One thing I will agree on is that Triad planners are still at least 20 years out-of-date on progressiveness in planning.

The sports aspect of the plan is I believe a remnant of back when The Minnesota twins were considering moving to the Triad (at least pretending to anyway), plans and feasibility studies were done then, and still may be a goal.

Edited by nowensone

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I think the proposal read 40K jobs if I'm not mistaken. Otherwise, I completely agree with your post. Parts of the proposal are unrealistic. SAS Stadium is in Cary. Durham, Greensboro, and W-S all have baseball. Charlotte has football and basketball. Regional shopping malls are in both Guilford and Forsyth County, but a new one is planned for southeast Guilford County, not to mention Alamance Crossing opening next year in west Burlington. Usually you would see these types of proposals closer to city centers in much larger metro areas or you'd see these types of developments in an area like the HOT without the entertainment and sports venues. Is the end goal to form the HOT into an "edge city"?

I don't expect the project to be started (much less finished completed) within our lifetime unless we see drastic changes in the way city and county leaders (and residents) think. It's ambitious and I would LOVE to see it happen, but if major corporations, the people, the entertainment, etc aren't flocking now, will they ever? Come on now.... 100K residents somehow migrating to a ~32 square mile area between GSO, HP, and W-S now currently filled with a smattering of forests, fields, office parks, farms, and residential??

I agree with that, it does look compact and structured well from the site docs, but the projections of over 100K residents and nearly 150K jobs seem unrealistic, basically building a city from scratch. Then again, they are doing just this in Arizona and Nevada right now, so not so far fetched I guess, though is not a mentality you really see in NC.

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I think mainly private developers would fund these projects. The only thing I question is the Major League Soccer stadium.

I think its a good plan if done right. I dont think the planners of this project are going to use the suburban sprawl model. Keep in mind, this isn't something thats going to happen over night.

There are a handful of people in the Triad who know how to do anything other than sprawl, and they're all working in the downtowns, not on greenfield development. Instead, the Triad has the moron who wants to build a skyscraper near the PTI flightpath.

There's little mention of transit in this, and most of the area near PTI is already a suburban nightmare. These bubble diagrams don't impress me.

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My reference point is Raleigh....this proposal sounds like RTP with SAS stadium and Four Seasons thrown in the middle and some Meadowmonts (Chapel Hill) thrown in to make people think they are getting some sort of new human scale city.......If I saw a 200 block street grid with transit and proposed building placement with some urban form, I might be more excited....

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where would the streetcars go too?

not quite sure. But if that happens, it will be along time before something like that is put in place. Street lines are extremely expensive to build and there would need to be a way to fund it

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If they build a soccer stadium will the team be a called a Winston-Salem team or a Greensboro team??

It would likely be Carolina. In order for a major league soccer team to be successful in the Triad, it will have to draw fans regionally and also draw fans from the Charlotte and Raleigh area. I doubt the name of the team would include Greensboro or Winston-Salem.

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^ Agreed on the "Carolina" name. I'd rather see another sport, like baseball, or even another pro basketball team, but professional soccer is a no brainer for this area. It was big here 20 years ago and has only gotten more popular with the high number of hispanic and continued Asian immigration to the Triad.

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I think even though some may be against the plan. I think its a heck of alot better than letting Wendover Ave type sprawl take over. at least planners are trying to do something to prevent that. As I said before, much of th plan is very realistic. The Triad is large enough to handle it. I can see Koury Corp building a "nicne" conference center with a hotel in the middle of the Triad. I can see developers setting aside land for companies, research and manufacturing plants. I can see developers building true urban style neighborhoods. I can even see a new course for the PGA tourney being built here. Why is the plan so unrealistic? There may be a few things that are a part of the plan that are questionable like the streetcars and soccer stadium (due to funding) but over all the plan is very doable.

^ Agreed on the "Carolina" name. I'd rather see another sport, like baseball, or even another pro basketball team, but professional soccer is a no brainer for this area. It was big here 20 years ago and has only gotten more popular with the high number of hispanic and continued Asian immigration to the Triad.

soccer is very popular here. I think the Greensboro hosted the NCAA soccer national championship at Bryan Park a few years ago.

Edited by cityboi

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not quite sure. But if that happens, it will be along time before something like that is put in place. Street lines are extremely expensive to build and there would need to be a way to fund it

Actually, this is not true if the streetcar tracks are put in when the streets are built. It's retro-fitting existing infrastructure that's costly.

The 200-block grid with streetcars overlaid on the roads from the beginning would be something. Especially if you did traffic signal priority for the streetcars.

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Actually, this is not true if the streetcar tracks are put in when the streets are built. It's retro-fitting existing infrastructure that's costly.

The 200-block grid with streetcars overlaid on the roads from the beginning would be something. Especially if you did traffic signal priority for the streetcars.

In that case its just a matter of local politicians wanting to go forward with having streetcars as part of these village style neighborhoods. I think its a good thing. i would love to see street cars carry people where they need to go and also carry people to the commuter rail stations.

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It would likely be Carolina. In order for a major league soccer team to be successful in the Triad, it will have to draw fans regionally and also draw fans from the Charlotte and Raleigh area. I doubt the name of the team would include Greensboro or Winston-Salem.

Raleigh is currently signing player contracts for its new USL-1 (former A-League) the Carolina Railhawks. There is already talk here of one day having an MLS team. I know the Triad has strong soccer but with SAS stadium already in Cary the Triangle may have the upper hand in proving it has a fan base for landing an MLS team. It will be an interesting 'arms race', and as a guy that plays in CASL's (Raleigh) open league soccer, I would be thrilled if either area landed an MLS team

Edited by Jones133

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Raleigh is currently signing player contracts for its new USL-1 (former A-League) the Carolina Railhawks. There is already talk here of one day having an MLS team. I know the Triad has strong soccer but with SAS stadium already in Cary the Triangle may have the upper hand in proving it has a fan base for landing an MLS team. It will be an interesting 'arms race', and as a guy that plays in open league soccer, I would be thrilled if either area landed an MLS team

I do think NC will get a team. I guess it just depends on how bad the Triad wants it but you may be right. since there is a stadium in Cary, it wouldnt be difficult at all to attract a relocating team or a new expansion team. We'll just have to wait and see. There was an effort several years back to attract a major league soccer team to the Triad. The stadium was suppose to be built in downtown Winston-Salem and it looked like a done deal. rough renderings of the stadium had been done. It was so close to happening that people were purchasing stadium builder licenses. The effort was started by the Carolina Soccer Foundation.

here is a link with the renderings

http://www.geocities.com/winstonsalemskyscrapers/index.html

also here is a rendering of the major league baseball stadium that was suppose th be built on the Guilford County/Forsyth County Line between I-40 and business 40

http://www.geocities.com/winstonsalemskyscrapers/index.html

Edited by cityboi

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The problem is that most of this development requires public money-for federal and state facilities like EPA, MCNC, NCBC, etc. Ok, so you have to beg the feds and state for money for facilities they don't even need but would boost the economy of the Triad-not much of an argument. Next you need money for all the museums, fields, arenas which would most likely come from local taxpayers-more begging there. I don't even understand the point of this proposal-its just a gamish of stuff like I said. Hey nanotech is hot, lets build a nanotech center. Hey biotech is hot, lets build a biotech center. Hey, hot dogs are hot lets build a hot dog factory. There is no strategic plan or viability studies for any of this. Its like, the Triangle opened a China Center, that means we can open a Indian Center. The Triangle has EPA, MCNC, etc. we can open ABC and XYZ-thats the flawed rationale that plagues the simplistic and naive thinking behind this stuff.

I agree with you DanRNC---there definitely is this competiveness going on here. I have read several articles in bizjournals that lead me to this conclusion. I even read a statement in one article where one leader was saying that the Traid could potentially monopolize on the name similarities between "Triangle" and "Triad." He indicated that people outside of NC aren't aware of the differences between the names, so they should capitalize on that fact. How sad?

If the best that the Triad can do is try and emulate Charlotte and the Triangle, it will NEVER find success in any of its plans. Any bright person knows this.

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I agree with you DanRNC---there definitely is this competiveness going on here. I have read several articles in bizjournals that lead me to this conclusion. I even read a statement in one article where one leader was saying that the Traid could potentially monopolize on the name similarities between "Triangle" and "Triad." He indicated that people outside of NC aren't aware of the differences between the names, so they should capitalize on that fact. How sad?

If the best that the Triad can do is try and emulate Charlotte and the Triangle, it will NEVER find success in any of its plans. Any bright person knows this.

Who says the Triad is trying to emulate Charlotte or the Triangle? :rolleyes:

If it wasn't for the Triad, the Charlotte and Triangle areas would not be what they are today......

Charlotte has stolen quite a few headquarters and businesses from the Triad. And the Triad funded a big part of what the Triangle has today thru tax dollars over the decades. This is largely because the Triad was the FIRST big economic engine for North Carolina and was so for several decades.....

The Triangle and Charlotte people can thank the Triad for some of its success :thumbsup:

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Who says the Triad is trying to emulate Charlotte or the Triangle? :rolleyes:

If it wasn't for the Triad, the Charlotte and Triangle areas would not be what they are today......

Charlotte has stolen quite a few headquarters and businesses from the Triad. And the Triad funded a big part of what the Triangle has today thru tax dollars over the decades. This is largely because the Triad was the FIRST big economic engine for North Carolina and was so for several decades.....

The Triangle and Charlotte people can thank the Triad for some of its success :thumbsup:

Its true, The Triad was the first big economic region in North Carolina before the the Triangle or Charlotte region. The Triangle knew they had to look towards bringing a new industry to the region because they couldnt compete with the Triad's textiles, tobbacco and furniture industries at the time so alot of money was invested into research and biotechnology. The banks propelled Charlotte over the Triad. Charlotte can thank Winston-Salem for Wachovia and Greensboro could be the home of Bank of America today if Charlotte had not had a federal reserve bank. Back when NCNB (now BofA) was in NC there were two dual headqaurters. One in Charlotte and one in Greensboro. The bank's corporate leaders wanted to choose between the two cities to have one corporate headquarters. Greensboro was under consideration because of its central location but would gave Charlotte the edge was the fact that the Queen City had a federal reserve bank.

The Triad is not trying to emulate Charlotte or Raleigh. If you talk to any Greensboro resident for instance you find that they dont want Greensboro or the Triad to be like Charlotte. They do want the Triad to grow and become more urban as Charlotte, but you'll find that residents dont want to do it the way Charlotte did it. For example, and this is not to knock Charlotte but im only stating what the mind set is in the Triad. Charlotte's idea of urban renewal was to destroy most of its historic architecture for new, bigger and exciting developments. Greensboro and Winston-Salem are doing everything it can to preserve its architecture for adaptive reuse. If Greensboro had tried to copy Charlotte, all the buildings along South Elm street that date back to the late 19th and early 20th century would have been gone 30 years ago. Both of Greenboro's historic downtown depots from 1895 and 1926 would not be there today. The Jefferson Standard and Guilford Buildings would have been demolished years ago for newer towers.

The last thing a city should do is try to copy what another city has done. by doing so, you'll always be behind. Triad Leaders are focusing on the Triad's strengths to become a leader and not a follower. The Triad is obviously focusing on being a transportation hub, distribution, logistics, transportation technology, aviation technology and hitech manufacturing. These are sectors that Charlotte and the Triangle arent focusing on as much as the Triad. True the Triad is trying to establish biotech and research like the Triangle did but there is alot going on in the Triad that the Triangle and Charlotte arent doing. I do think that the FedEx Hub is the greatest thing that has happened to the Triad since the Railroad put the region on the map in the 1800s. Alot of people dont realize yet what kind of effect FedEx is going to have on the Triad. Its already lured Dell and the world headquarters and production factory for Honda Aircraft Company and hub hasnt even opened yet. These are high paying jobs that are coming too. and you know what.....thats only the beginning. The seed has been planted in the Triad and over the next 20 years or so, you are going to see a very different Piedmont Triad. The Triad will rival the Triangle and Charlotte in its own way. Thats how much confidence I have in the Triad cities and the infrastructure thats being put in place today. I can visulaize it in my head with what FedEx and the companies it will attract will do the the region. I can visualize the economic growth from having I-40, I-85, I-73/74 and I-785 intersect in the Triad. I can visualize what the the Triad will reap from the collaboration among Triad's universities which include collaboration with companies expanding into the region. I can visualize the results from the downtown revitalization efforts of Greensboro, Winston-Salem and High Point. I can visuallize a built out Piedmont Triad Research Park and Gateway University Research Park. Its very clear in my head. The Triad is truely a sleeping giant. I do believe that history will one day repeat itself.

Edited by cityboi

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Its true, The Triad was the first big economic region in North Carolina before the the Triangle or Charlotte region. The Triangle knew they had to look towards bringing a new industry to the region because they couldnt compete with the Triad's textiles, tobbacco and furniture industries at the time so alot of money was invested into research and biotechnology. The banks propelled Charlotte over the Triad. Charlotte can thank Winston-Salem for Wachovia and Greensboro could be the home of Bank of America today if Charlotte had not had a federal reserve bank. Back when NCNB (now BofA) was in NC there were two dual headqaurters. One in Charlotte and one in Greensboro. The bank's corporate leaders wanted to choose between the two cities to have one corporate headquarters. Greensboro was under consideration because of its central location but would gave Charlotte the edge was the fact that the Queen City had a federal reserve bank.

The Triad is not trying to emulate Charlotte or Raleigh. If you talk to any Greensboro resident for instance you find that they dont want Greensboro or the Triad to be like Charlotte. They do want the Triad to grow and become more urban as Charlotte, but you'll find that residents dont want to do it the way Charlotte did it. For example, and this is not to knock Charlotte but im only stating what the mind set is in the Triad. Charlotte's idea of urban renewal was to destroy most of its historic architecture for new, bigger and exciting developments. Greensboro and Winston-Salem are doing everything it can to preserve its architecture for adaptive reuse. If Greensboro had tried to copy Charlotte, all the buildings along South Elm street that date back to the late 19th and early 20th century would have been gone 30 years ago. Both of Greenboro's historic downtown depots from 1895 and 1926 would not be there today. The Jefferson Standard and Guilford Buildings would have been demolished years ago for newer towers.

The last thing a city should do is try to copy what another city has done. by doing so, you'll always be behind. Triad Leaders are focusing on the Triad's strengths to become a leader and not a follower. The Triad is obviously focusing on being a transportation hub, distribution, logistics, transportation technology, aviation technology and hitech manufacturing. These are sectors that Charlotte and the Triangle arent focusing on as much as the Triad. True the Triad is trying to establish biotech and research like the Triangle did but there is alot going on in the Triad that the Triangle and Charlotte arent doing. I do think that the FedEx Hub is the greatest thing that has happened to the Triad since the Railroad put the region on the map in the 1800s. Alot of people dont realize yet what kind of effect FedEx is going to have on the Triad. Its already lured Dell and the world headquarters and production factory for Honda Aircraft Company and hub hasnt even opened yet. These are high paying jobs that are coming too. and you know what.....thats only the beginning. The seed has been planted in the Triad and over the next 20 years or so, you are going to see a very different Piedmont Triad. The Triad will rival the Triangle and Charlotte in its own way. Thats how much confidence I have in the Triad cities and the infrastructure thats being put in place today. I can visulaize it in my head with what FedEx and the companies it will attract will do the the region. I can visualize the economic growth from having I-40, I-85, I-73/74 and I-785 intersect in the Triad. I can visualize what the the Triad will reap from the collaboration among Triad's universities which include collaboration with companies expanding into the region. I can visualize the results from the downtown revitalization efforts of Greensboro, Winston-Salem and High Point. I can visuallize a built out Piedmont Triad Research Park and Gateway University Research Park. Its very clear in my head. The Triad is truely a sleeping giant. I do believe that history will one day repeat itself.

Your message is a bit contradictory. First you indicate that the Triad is primarily responsible for the Triangle and Charlotte metros being what they are today; however, you go on to state "Triad Leaders are focusing on the Triad's strengths to become a leader and not a follower."

If the Triad were trully the state leader in the past, they would still be leaders today and would not need to focus on becoming leaders.

The best thing that the Triad can do, and even Charlotte for that matter, is to focus on long-term sustainability of jobs, and not simply focus on recruiting headquaters and fly-by-night operations. A company can choose to move its headquaters at any time for the simplest of reasons, and then where would that leave the Triad? Just think what would have happened to the city of Charlotte if US Airways would have merged with Delta and pulled its Charlotte hub in favor of the Atlanta hub...

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Your message is a bit contradictory. First you indicate that the Triad is primarily responsible for the Triangle and Charlotte metros being what they are today; however, you go on to state "Triad Leaders are focusing on the Triad's strengths to become a leader and not a follower."

If the Triad were trully the state leader in the past, they would still be leaders today and would not need to focus on becoming leaders.

The Triad indeed was an economic engine for the state and a leader for a brief time in history (early 20th century.) The problem is the former leaders were too content with the industries they had and failed to diversify. The Triad was then caught "with their pants down" when Textiles, furniture, and tobacco came under fire. More "progressive" leadership helped the Triangle and Charlotte take the reigns from the Triad region. I think the Triad will indeed become leaders again, and that we'll use the Charlotte and Triangle examples as planning "not to repeat."

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If Greensboro had tried to copy Charlotte, all the buildings along South Elm street that date back to the late 19th and early 20th century would have been gone 30 years ago. Both of Greenboro's historic downtown depots from 1895 and 1926 would not be there today. The Jefferson Standard and Guilford Buildings would have been demolished years ago for newer towers.

If Greensboro is so proud of these old gems, then why don't they maintian them better. Most of these old buildings along South Elm are run down. These old timers who own property in downtown Greensboro don't want change. Their buildings are going to rot to the ground if they don't change their way of thinking. Greensboro's downtown could be so cool with just a little paint and upkeep on the fronts of these old buildings would give old Greensborough a much needed facelift. As much as I like old architecture, if your not going to maintain it, tear it down...

Edited by triadguy37

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