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If Greensboro is so proud of these old gems, then why don't they maintian them better. Most of these old buildings along South Elm are run down. These old timers who own property in downtown Greensboro don't want change. Their buildings are going to rot to the ground if they don't change their way of thinking. Greensboro's downtown could be so cool with just a little paint and upkeep on the fronts of these old buildings would give old Greensborough a much needed facelift. As much as I like old architecture, if your not going to maintain it, tear it down...

The problem is with some property owners. If the city had its way, they would be kept up. But in some cases, the city has had to tear down buildings because of years of neglect. I think downtown's biggest losses were the old O'Henry Hotel, the King Cotton Hotel and even some say the Old Burlington Industries headquarters where First Horizon Park is now. Over all, Greensboro has done an excellent job preserving its historic buildings.

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The Triad indeed was an economic engine for the state and a leader for a brief time in history (early 20th century.) The problem is the former leaders were too content with the industries they had and failed to diversify. The Triad was then caught "with their pants down" when Textiles, furniture, and tobacco came under fire. More "progressive" leadership helped the Triangle and Charlotte take the reigns from the Triad region. I think the Triad will indeed become leaders again, and that we'll use the Charlotte and Triangle examples as planning "not to repeat."

I couldnt have said it better. When you are on top, you become complacent and satisfied with the status quo and thats what happen with the Triad. Also the movers and shakers at the time kept a tight leash on the Triad cities and kept the cities from growing too much because they didnt want to lose their control on the local economies. In Greensboro, the Cones pretty much ran everything and the Reynolds did the same in Winston. When you are the underdog, you strive harder and see more progressive results and thats why the Triangle and Charlotte leaped ahead of the Triad. Like suburban george said, I do think the Triad has the potential to regain its status as the economic engine of the state. Also cities and metros eventually reach a "plateau" where growth kinda flatens out. Usually when larger markets become too saturated, companies look at smaller markets.

Edited by cityboi

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I couldnt have said it better. When you are on top, you become complacent and satisfied with the status quo and thats what happen with the Triad. Also the movers and shakers at the time kept a tight leash on the Triad cities and kept the cities from growing too much because they didnt want to lose their control on the local economies. In Greensboro, the Cones pretty much ran everything and the Reynolds did the same in Winston. When you are the underdog, you strive harder and see more progressive results and thats why the Triangle and Charlotte leaped ahead of the Triad. Like suburban george said, I do think the Triad has the potential to regain its status as the economic engine of the state. Also cities and metros eventually reach a "plateau" where growth kinda flatens out. Usually when larger markets become too saturated, companies look at smaller markets.

It's great to see the locals have so much faith in and show support for their community, but you guys are the only ones that I have heard make these arguments. Unfortunately the arguments are somewhat juvenile in nature. If the Traid was such an "economic engine" in the past, Charlotte and the Triangle would have NEVER left it so far behind in the dust. What you see is a lack of long-term planning by leaders who had no vision.

I'm not saying that the Triad's economy can't improve and prosperity increase, but it will take alot of work and cooperation. It's also gonna have to be something that the PEOPLE of the Triad want badly enough to work and make it happen.

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It's great to see the locals have so much faith in and show support for their community, but you guys are the only ones that I have heard make these arguments. Unfortunately the arguments are somewhat juvenile in nature. If the Traid was such an "economic engine" in the past, Charlotte and the Triangle would have NEVER left it so far behind in the dust. What you see is a lack of long-term planning by leaders who had no vision.

I'm not saying that the Triad's economy can't improve and prosperity increase, but it will take alot of work and cooperation. It's also gonna have to be something that the PEOPLE of the Triad want badly enough to work and make it happen.

Would have NEVER left it so far behind in the dust? That would be the main juvenile argument here, Raleigh's recent rise onto many of the charts seems to have imparted a few people with illusions of grandeur, not to mention some strange need to defensively criticize (if there is such a thing) certain other locations like the Triad, and frankly it gives the appearance that they are fearful of something. Which is equally ridiculous, but none-the-less how it appears. This strange attitude would be better directed elsewhere.

Historically most of NC's major cities have seesawed back and forth, CLT and Raleigh probably have the edge, though regionally CLT, the Triad and Triangle are similar. Can't really argue with bad planning, but it's everywhere, there is no monopoly there as you surely know. Building research centers to accommodate an industry whose dominance in the future is a certainty is simple common sense, not to mention that the Triad is also a place of quality universities and history of innovation and research, and so there exists a precedence and natural fit, more so than most places in the country. I'll agree that the public face of such initiatives is sometimes embarassing, but again, I think that is more common than not. The efforts by WS and GSO, as well as Dole's in Kannapolis, may be overkill for a while, but this industry has already proven that early entry is key, and obviously R/D benefited from such a strategy 50 years ago when it was considered economic backwoods (along with most of NC in general).

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Would have NEVER left it so far behind in the dust? That would be the main juvenile argument here, Raleigh's recent rise onto many of the charts seems to have imparted a few people with illusions of grandeur, not to mention some strange need to defensively criticize (if there is such a thing) certain other locations like the Triad, and frankly it gives the appearance that they are fearful of something. Which is equally ridiculous, but none-the-less how it appears. This strange attitude would be better directed elsewhere.

Historically most of NC's major cities have seesawed back and forth, CLT and Raleigh probably have the edge, though regionally CLT, the Triad and Triangle are similar. Can't really argue with bad planning, but it's everywhere, there is no monopoly there as you surely know. Building research centers to accommodate an industry whose dominance in the future is a certainty is simple common sense, not to mention that the Triad is also a place of quality universities and history of innovation and research, and so there exists a precedence and natural fit, more so than most places in the country. I'll agree that the public face of such initiatives is sometimes embarassing, but again, I think that is more common than not. The efforts by WS and GSO, as well as Dole's in Kannapolis, may be overkill for a while, but this industry has already proven that early entry is key, and obviously R/D benefited from such a strategy 50 years ago when it was considered economic backwoods (along with most of NC in general).

You hit the nail on the head!! :shades:

"RALNATIVE" is clueless :wacko:

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If the Traid was such an "economic engine" in the past, Charlotte and the Triangle would have NEVER left it so far behind in the dust.

I'm not sure what your evidence is of this, but it is pretty certain that most cities that are experiencing the most economic growth today were relatively unheard of 100 years ago. Cities and economies experience cycles. Check your history on cities like Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Baltimore.

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Would have NEVER left it so far behind in the dust? That would be the main juvenile argument here, Raleigh's recent rise onto many of the charts seems to have imparted a few people with illusions of grandeur, not to mention some strange need to defensively criticize (if there is such a thing) certain other locations like the Triad, and frankly it gives the appearance that they are fearful of something. Which is equally ridiculous, but none-the-less how it appears. This strange attitude would be better directed elsewhere.

First of all, I never made any direct comparison's between Raleigh and the Triad...you did, which ALWAYS seems to be the case with Triadians. My statements had nothing to do with my personal perception of Raleigh, but now that you brought it up...Raleigh has been topping the rankings for years, this is not something that all of a sudden happened recently.

The point that i'm trying to make is that the Triad would be better off taking clues from successful metros, in terms of how to grow organically and attract more people and big business, and not devote so much time on trying to "keep up with the Joneses," which is OBVIOUS to anyone who isn't "clueless" and keeps up with the local happenings in the Triad.

Edited by RALNATIVE

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I'm not sure what your evidence is of this, but it is pretty certain that most cities that are experiencing the most economic growth today were relatively unheard of 100 years ago. Cities and economies experience cycles. Check your history on cities like Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Baltimore.

It seems that you guys are all longing for days gone by...reminds me of my great grandparents and their obsession with the Civil War. :silly:

I agree that economies can be cyclical, but unfortunately that was more true in the past than it is today. We are moving more and more towards a global economy with other countries such as India and China beginning to reap some of the same rewards that the US has enjoyed for so long. Do you honestly think that situations such as this will not influence the cyclical nature of heavy industrial cities like Pittsburgh and St. Louis and their economies?

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First of all, I never made any direct comparison's between Raleigh and the Triad...you did, which ALWAYS seems to be the case with Triadians. My statements had nothing to do with my personal perception of Raleigh, but no that you brought it up...Raleigh has been topping the rankings for years, this is not something that all of a sudden happened recently.

The point that i'm trying to make is that the Triad would be better off taking clues from successful metros, in terms of how to grow oganically and attract more people and big business, and not devote so much time to trying to "keep up with the Joneses," which is OBVIOUS to anyone who isn't "clueless" and keeps up with the local happenings in the Triad.

Look, I know how you uber "New South" Raleigh and Charlotte folk look at the Triad as "The Rust-belt of North Carolina", but that is just silly.

You have been making comparisons between us and the Charlotte and Triangle areas throughout this thread.......just look back at your posts. :rolleyes:

Raleigh is a great NC city, but it has been topping the rankings for only the past several years.....that IS a sudden thing.

You should not talk about growing organically as you are from a very sprawling area....

The Triad is attracting more biz and people: Dell, Fed-Ex Hub, HondaJet.........HELLO!!

I would not call that 'keeping up with the Joneses". As cityboi stated........we are a sleeping giant and we are more of a distribution/logistics/high-tech manufacturing/aviation technology type of economy mixed with a little other stuff. We are different from the Charlotte and Triangle areas and are NOT trying to emulate them.

You are clueless. :whistling:

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Look, I know how you uber "New South" Raleigh and Charlotte folk look at the Triad as "The Rust-belt of North Carolina", but that is just silly.

You have been making comparisons between us and the Charlotte and Triangle areas throughout this thread.......just look back at your posts. :rolleyes:

Raleigh is a great NC city, but it has been topping the rankings for only the past several years.....that IS a sudden thing.

You should not talk about growing organically as you are from a very sprawling area....

The Triad is attracting more biz and people: Dell, Fed-Ex Hub, HondaJet.........HELLO!!

I would not call that 'keeping up with the Joneses". As cityboi stated........we are a sleeping giant and we are more of a distribution/logistics/high-tech manufacturing/aviation technology type of economy mixed with a little other stuff. We are different from the Charlotte and Triangle areas and are NOT trying to emulate them.

You are clueless. :whistling:

The high rankings started in the mid 90's, so I would not call that recent.

I tell you what, re-read your posts 5 years from now, and let's see who is the one who was clueless!

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I agree that economies can be cyclical, but unfortunately that was more true in the past than it is today.

Ummm, that was the point, since we were discussing the Triad's historical position in NC.

The high rankings started in the mid 90's, so I would not call that recent.

We're only talking the past 10 years or so, which is hardly a large span of time. In the grand scheme of things, that's practically overnight.

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Why would I think that there is a case of "keeping up with the Joneses"?

It will be an open air mall similar to Friendly Center but it will be more modern and better designed. It will likely be more like The Streets of South Point in Durham. This is good news for southeast Greensboro but traffice will definatelty increase in the area.

Good deal for the Triad. A little like a Brier Creek or Ballantyne. I wonder will it be that upscale.

Neat ideas cantnot. I think the area could do without a Target since Wal-Mart is right across the street, but looking at Wendover, one could argue that one. Nordstrom or Saks may be good, but I don't know if the demographics in that area would support it... then again, once 85/40/840 is complete from Bryan Blvd. to Hwy 70, hopping on the interstate to shop at those retailers wouldn't be too horrible. I think this mall is the opportunity for the Triad to have something new and different.

This is just a sample...

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Ummm, that was the point, since we were discussing the Triad's historical position in NC.

The point that he was trying to make about the Triad's future was that history may repeat itself. That was the reason for his making that inference. What i'm saying is that there is no guarantee that the cycles will continue to be valid given that there are so many global factors that affect the economies of most major US cities today.

Edited by RALNATIVE

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Why would I think that there is a case of "keeping up with the Joneses"?

Oh wait, here's more...

The new mall will add development between south elm-eugene and Mt Hope Church Road...Speeding up the day Burlington and Greensboro meet up for better or worse. I hope the shopping center is similar to Briar Creek with a very diverse tenant mix with a movie theatre. These days it seem developers are hitting the repeat button on all the open air shopping centers...Target,Best Buy, Dicks, Bed Bath and Beyond...

Charlotte, Greensboro and Raleigh all got large regional shopping centers in the midcentury period. Charlotte has Park Road, Raleigh has Cameron Village, and Greensboro has Friendly Center.

Friendly Center is the newest of the three, but easily the most competitve. It's still a regional mall, while the others are more like community centers these days.

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Why would I think that there is a case of "keeping up with the Joneses"?

and one more...

I can't remember if it had been mentioned too, but REI is joining the project!!

So PF Changs, REI.... could Cheesecake Factory be next?

Aren't these all in Raleigh and Charlotte already???

Edited by RALNATIVE

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The point that he was trying to make about the Triad's future was that history may repeat itself. That was the reason for his making that inference. What i'm saying is that there is no guarantee that the cycles will continue to be valid given that there are so many global factors that affect the economies of most major US cities today.

Your argument was that if a city/region is no longer as economically dominant as it once was due to other cities/regions making greater economic progress and thus supplanting that city's/region's economic position within its state, then it's debatable whether or not it was really dominant to begin with. I find that to be an unreasonable position.

Furthermore, I think you may have read too much into his (cityboi's) point. I don't think he was saying that the Triad will once again naturally become the economic engine of NC simply based on the passage of time, or the repetition of an economic cycle. If that was the case, then the leaders of the region would have nothing more to do than just twiddle their thumbs and wait their turn once again and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The fact of the matter is that Charlotte and the Triangle have set the bar high in NC, and it's not unreasonable for residents of the Triad to brainstorm about how the region can further bolster its economy so as to experience the type of economic growth and prosperity that those two regions are currently experiencing. As a matter of fact, this is natural and I would be concerned if this wasn't the case.

Concerning the posts that you presented as examples of "keeping up with the Joneses," I fail to see how they demonstrate that; they are only comparative in nature. Is Raleigh lamenting the fact that Charlotte landed an IKEA instead of the Triangle an example of "keeping up with the Joneses"? Is the fact that an aloft hotel is coming to the Triangle when one is under construction in Charlotte an example of the same? What about the thread discussing the possibility of a downtown arena in Raleigh (and guess which city in NC has a new downtown arena)? As metro areas grow, they will experience development similar to larger metro areas; this is natural. I hardly see Greensboro or Winston-Salem going after a lifestyle center simply because Durham has one. If these things are being built, it's because the developers have done their homework and have discovered that the market can sustain these things. No one in his/her right mind would invest millions of dollars into these types of projects just to one-up Raleigh or Charlotte; that's nonsense.

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Your argument was that if a city/region is no longer as economically dominant as it once was due to other cities/regions making greater economic progress and thus supplanting that city's/region's economic position within its state, then it's debatable whether or not it was really dominant to begin with. I find that to be an unreasonable position.

Furthermore, I think you may have read too much into his (cityboi's) point. I don't think he was saying that the Triad will once again naturally become the economic engine of NC simply based on the passage of time, or the repetition of an economic cycle. If that was the case, then the leaders of the region would have nothing more to do than just twiddle their thumbs and wait their turn once again and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The fact of the matter is that Charlotte and the Triangle have set the bar high in NC, and it's not unreasonable for residents of the Triad to brainstorm about how the region can further bolster its economy so as to experience the type of economic growth and prosperity that those two regions are currently experiencing. As a matter of fact, this is natural and I would be concerned if this wasn't the case.

Concerning the posts that you presented as examples of "keeping up with the Joneses," I fail to see how they demonstrate that; they are only comparative in nature. Is Raleigh lamenting the fact that Charlotte landed an IKEA instead of the Triangle an example of "keeping up with the Joneses"? Is the fact that an aloft hotel is coming to the Triangle when one is under construction in Charlotte an example of the same? As metro areas grow, they will experience development similar to larger metro areas; this is natural. I hardly see Greensboro or Winston-Salem going after a lifestyle center simply because Durham has one. If these things are being built, it's because the developers have done their homework and have discovered that the market can sustain these things. No one in his/her right mind would invest millions of dollars into these types of projects just to one-up Raleigh or Charlotte; that's nonsense.

I'm not saying that the cities of Greensboro or W-S are trying to keep up with Raleigh or Charlotte, but if you pay careful attention to the posts, they definitely give that impression. I have actually seen articles in bizjournals that specifically mentions "snagging companies from the more conjested Triangle or Charlotte" or striving to replicate RTP's success in biotech. This is not the kind of competition that NC needs.

In terms of the Aloft hotel, bot charlotte and the Triangle announced plans around the same time that they were planning to build one of these hotels. January was the earliest that Starwood would even approve the applications, so it's ridiculous to think that the Triangle may be trying to copy Charlotte. There are areas where Raleigh exceeds Charlotte, and there are areas where Charlotte exceeds Raleigh, but all-in-all both cities are trying to establish their own identities and stay up-to-date with modern urban amenities.

Edited by krazeeboi

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I'm not saying that the cities of Greensboro or W-S are trying to keep up with Raleigh or charlotte, but if you pay careful attention to the posts, the commentors definitely give the impression that they aspire to similar, if not better. that is not the kind of competition that NC's residents need to portray.

Once again, you are changing your tune. You made it quite evident that it was your impression that Greensboro and Winston-Salem are indeed trying to "keep up with the Joneses," the Joneses in this case being Charlotte and Raleigh. And the question I would ask you is: what's wrong with trying to aspire to Charlotte and Raleigh? NC is blessed to have two rapidly growing, prosperous cities that receive national accolades on a regular basis within its borders, so why shouldn't the smaller cities try to emulate their successes where it is feasible? This is the question you must ultimately answer in order for your argument to be of any merit.

In terms of the Aloft hotel, bot charlotte and the Triangle announced plans around the same time that they were planning to build one of these hotels. January was the earliest that Starwood would even approve the applications, so it's ridiculous to think that the Triangle may be trying to copy Charlotte. There are areas where Raleigh exceeds Charlotte, and there are areas where Charlotte exceeds Raleigh, but all-in-all both cities are trying to establish their own identities and stay up-to-date with modern urban amenities.

There may be a technicality present concerning the Aloft hotel example, but not with the other examples I brought up (and the list was nowhere near exhaustive), so I don't consider it ridiculous at all. At one point, you would have thought that Raleigh only wanted to be a high-tech clone of Charlotte by reading some of the stuff here and on other forums. And if Charlotte and Raleigh are trying to stay up-to-date with modern urban amenities, then why shouldn't the Triad, a metro area of 1.5 million, do the same? Why in the world should residents in cities of over 200K and a metro area that big have to travel to cities several miles away just to shop at certain stores and eat at certain restaurants that their own metro area clearly has the population base to sustain locally? What you are saying here simply makes no sense whatsoever. Applying your logic, Raleighites should simply go to Charlotte to shop at those stores and eat at those restaurants that Raleigh doesn't have. That's asinine.

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Once again, you are changing your tune. You made it quite evident that it was your impression that Greensboro and Winston-Salem are indeed trying to "keep up with the Joneses," the Joneses in this case being Charlotte and Raleigh. And the question I would ask you is: what's wrong with trying to aspire to Charlotte and Raleigh? NC is blessed to have two rapidly growing, prosperous cities that receive national accolades on a regular basis within its borders, so why shouldn't the smaller cities try to emulate their successes where it is feasible? This is the question you must ultimately answer in order for your argument to be of any merit.

You are missing the point! Maybe you just have a hard time comprehending things. I do use comments posted on this blog to point out some examples, but the bigger picture is that the Triad and it's leadership are banking on attaining the same levels of success that we see in Charlotte and Raleigh by trying to follow in their footsteps (by having biotech, by creating similar developments, etc.). It is fine to strive to bring more upscale things to an area, but as anyone knows, you must have a large enough demographic that will support it. That is why you are not seeing Triad developers rushing to build or high-end retailers lining up in the Triad like they are in other areas. These are groups that know much, much more about an area's viability than you or I, and they make their decisions based on facts, not trends they see happening down the road.

I'm not saying that the Triad doesn't deserve these things and will eventually get them, but based on what I have been reading, a flawed rationale exists for having these things. What works for Charlotte and Raleigh will not neccesarily work for other cities, and that is the thing to keep in mind!

Bizjournals Article

Edited by RALNATIVE

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At least address some of the arguments made if you can't see your own bias, and generally explain yourself. It is a little ridiculous to say that the Triad is trying to copy the Triangle, there seems no small amount of conceit present in your posts, what are you talking about? Placing biotech here is not an attempt to copy the Triangle, it has legitimate reasons to be in the Triad, which I pointed out earlier, at least tell me why I am wrong, and not just more backpedaling on your part. As was pointed out, you are the one making the comparative references.

Edited by nowensone

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You are missing the point! Maybe you just have a hard time comprehending things. I do use comments posted on this blog to point out some examples, but the bigger picture is that the Triad and it's leadership are banking on attaining the same levels of success that we see in Charlotte and Raleigh by trying to follow in their footsteps (by having biotech, by creating similar developments, etc.). It is fine to strive to bring more upscale things to an area, but as anyone knows, you must have a large enough demographic that will support it. That is why you are not seeing Triad developers rushing to build or high-end retailers lining up in the Triad like they are in other areas. These are groups that know much, much more about an area's viability than you or I, and they make their decisions based on facts, not trends they see happening down the road.

I'm not saying that the Traid doesn't deserve these things and will eventually get them, but based on what I have been reading, a flawed rationale exists for having these things. What works for Charlotte and Raleigh will not neccesarily work for other cities, and that is the thing to keep in mind!

Bizjournal Article

I think that Krazeeboi is saying that you make it seem like it's a bad thing to try and emulate success. I don't know whether you are trying to belittle the triad or not, but one could easy get that impression from your comments. I think that the situation is kind of like an arguement between a multi-sibling family. The oldest kid (in this case charlotte) has had his license for many years now. The middle kid (raleigh/durham/chapel hill) has just recently turned "sweet-16" and gotten his license. The middle kid flaunts his license to the youngest kid (the triad) because he can, and because he finally thinks that he's "arrived" with the big kids. What he soon realizes is that driving is no longer the cool thing to do for the oldest sibling. It's buying beer. Well now the middle kid wants to be old enough to buy beer. His jealousy only subsides when he too gets to buy beer. At this point the youngest has been driving for a few years and he too will eventually be able to buy beer.

The point of my analogy is that everyone has an oldest sibling (ATL is charlotte's oldest sibling). Everyone is eventually going to grow up (this is NC and even the triad has that potential). Why not realize that will happen, and that the best thing to do in the meantime is not to flaunt your success?

Weird anology i know, but take what you want from it.

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the example that was used with the shops at Friendly Center being like South Point in durham is not a good example because open-air malls is a national trend. Its not like Greensboro said we want to make shops at friendly center look like the Street at South Pointe in Durham. Besides Friendly Center has actually been around long before open-air mall became popular.

If the Triad does some research and biotech like the Triangle, thats ok. Charlotte is trying to do it too. Its like the traditional industries, furniture, tobacco and textiles. All three regions had a share of all those industries. The Triad was the hub of it. Same with biotech and research. The Triangle just happens to be the hub of that. History happens in cycles. The Triad will lead again. Its like a see saw.

Edited by cityboi

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the example that was used with the shops at Friendly Center being like South Point in durham is not a good example because open-air malls is a national trend. Its not like Greensboro said we want to make shops at friendly center look like the Street at South Pointe in Durham. Besides Friendly Center has actually been around long before open-air mall became popular.

If the Triad does some research and biotech like the Triangle, thats ok. Charlotte is trying to do it too. Its like the traditional industries, furniture, tobacco and textiles. All three regions had a share of all those industries. The Triad was the hub of it. Same with biotech and research. The Triangle just happens to be the hub of that. History happens in cycles. The Triad will lead again. Its like a see saw.

and The South will rise again...

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You are missing the point! Maybe you just have a hard time comprehending things.

No, I have an easy time pointing out flawed and fluid arguments.

I do use comments posted on this blog to point out some examples, but the bigger picture is that the Triad and it's leadership are banking on attaining the same levels of success that we see in Charlotte and Raleigh by trying to follow in their footsteps (by having biotech, by creating similar developments, etc.).

In case you didn't know, several cities are trying to jump on the biotech wagon now, not just Greensboro, but that hardly means these cities are trying to be like Raleigh. They have simply seen the success of the biotech industry and want a piece of the pie. Maybe it will work for these cities, and maybe it won't. The leaders in the Triad know that they will not be able to create another RTP, and I seriously doubt that they have those illusions of grandeur running through their heads.

And couldn't it be argued that Raleigh is trying to be like Charlotte by luring a bank headquarters to the city? I'm not necessarily employing that argument myself, but I could see how someone might make that argument.

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