M-6 Corridor Growth and Sprawl

[francishsu]

I would have rather seen nothing there that what is currently going in there. It sounds like you're saying your expectations were very low, and that's what occurred. Any thought to planning or foresight by Gaines Township or Byron Township? Think about how ugly these development look now, then imagine in 20 years. These will be suburban ghetto areas, I guarantee it. People are already selling homes in Crystal Springs for lower that what they paid. The thought process, like GRTownPlanner so eloquently articulated, is that current design only extends to the length of the mortgage.

Although it may be hard to fathom, pretty much everything currently built in Gaines/Wyoming/Bryon Township South of 44th is less than 30 years old.

I guess you could see it as expectations being low. But to me, M-6 is a just a highway and my expectations of it are similar to what I have seen of bypass highways in cities where I have lived, like I-270 in St. Louis. Or closer to home, I would guess I-69/I-96 surrounding Lansing. There's nothing glamorous about them, but highways like those are needed.

You talk about south of 44th. First, 44th to M-6 is what.. three miles? M-6 is 8-10 miles south of I-196/131. If another bypass further south gets built, it's going to be a minimum of 5 miles further south of M-6. There's a ridiculous amount of undeveloped land in that region, far more than what's between 44th and M-6. I don't see how that shows another bypass being built in 30 years.

[GRDadof3]

I guess you could see it as expectations being low. But to me, M-6 is a just a highway and my expectations of it are similar to what I have seen of bypass highways in cities where I have lived, like I-270 in St. Louis. Or closer to home, I would guess I-69/I-96 surrounding Lansing. There's nothing glamorous about them, but highways like those are needed.

You talk about south of 44th. First, 44th to M-6 is what.. three miles? M-6 is 8-10 miles south of I-196/131. If another bypass further south gets built, it's going to be a minimum of 5 miles further south of M-6. There's a ridiculous amount of undeveloped land in that region, far more than what's between 44th and M-6. I don't see how that shows another bypass being built in 30 years.

30 years or 50 years, whichever. My point is do we want to see Metro Grand Rapids look like another Macomb County? I personally do not. If you do, then congratulations! You're getting your wish.

[evac311]

Anyone know the status of the US 31 bypass?

[GRDadof3]

Anyone know the status of the US 31 bypass?

Status: A waste of taxpayer dollars. Let's build a 4 lane highway a few miles from another 4 lane highway Especially an existing 4 lane highway that wildlife can cross at leisure without fear of being hit.

The only thing I can see needed is to add another bridge over the Grand River in Grand Haven.

I know for a fact that Burton/Division to the south is seeing the largest property value gains in Grand Rapids.

Count how many new housing units have been built in that area (or can be built) and report back to us evac311.

[Rizzo]

Status: A waste of taxpayer dollars. Let's build a 4 lane highway only a mile from another 4 lane highway Especially an existing 4 lane highway that wildlife can cross at leisure without fear of being hit.

The only thing I can see needed is to add another bridge over the Grand River in Grand Haven.

Count how many new housing units have been built in that area (or can be built) and report back to us evac311.

So there was a plan of building a beltline to bypass other beltlines?! Holy smokes...

[GRDadof3]

So there was a plan of building a beltline to bypass other beltlines?! Holy smokes...

Here's an opinion and info about it here Rizzo: http://www.taxpayer.net/road2ruin/roads/us31michigan.htm

[Rizzo]

Here's an opinion and info about it here Rizzo: http://www.taxpayer.net/road2ruin/roads/us31michigan.htm

I say holy smokes again... billion dollar "road to ruin" paved with good intentions. We could use that billion and start multiple ITP rapid transit corridors.

Thank you dad for the share.

[snoogit]

I don't think the light blue areas along 131 are going to prove accurate. I know for a fact that Burton/Division to the south is seeing the largest property value gains in Grand Rapids. This map also indicate a loss in downtown. I think we are going to see huge population gains downtown over the next couple decades.

I would guess they made these maps before the condo projects were announced. I bet anything those light blue areas would be peach, and the wyoming area light blue

[evac311]

Status: A waste of taxpayer dollars. Let's build a 4 lane highway a few miles from another 4 lane highway Especially an existing 4 lane highway that wildlife can cross at leisure without fear of being hit.

Anyone care to answer my question?

Count how many new housing units have been built in that area (or can be built) and report back to us evac311.

I didn't know rising property values indicated decreased demand/growth.

[GRDadof3]

Anyone care to answer my question?

I didn't know rising property values indicated decreased demand/growth.

increased property values do not necessarily mean the population will increase in that area. Especially if there is no land on which to build. It might go from "moderate loss" to "stabilized".

[Rizzo]

http://www.michiganhighways.org/indepth/US...way_Ottawa.html

[evac311]

http://www.taxpayer.net/road2ruin/roads/us31michigan.htm - This reports the development of the bypass..

No it doesn't. That is just the opinion of the group that runs that website. I read that when the plans were announced, there were lots of people fighting to buy land in and along the proposed corridoor. That, coupled with the Granholm veto may have doomed the project if infact it has been canceled, which I am not yet sure of.

[GRDadof3]

US 31 bypass delayed for years

Google is your friend

$1 billion dollars is insane for that bypass. A big mass transit system could be built in GR for that kind of money.

[NorthEnder]

US 31 bypass delayed for years

Google is your friend

I'd like to see the county subsidize GRR before throwing funds at another stupid poorly planned expressway/highway... although I hear business' are working on a low-cost carrier to the area, it would definately help.

Back to M-6, I was a bit stunned while driving down division, expecting to get on m-6, and what do you know, no on-ramp. Might have been to much of a challenege to get the land to add the ramps, but whats a few million when they threw as much as they did at it. I would have settled for them putting a sign that said the shortest way, either to go to 131, or kalamazoo... but nothing was there.

[evac311]

I'd like to see the county subsidize GRR before throwing funds at another stupid poorly planned expressway/highway... although I hear business' are working on a low-cost carrier to the area, it would definately help.

Back to M-6, I was a bit stunned while driving down division, expecting to get on m-6, and what do you know, no on-ramp. Might have been to much of a challenege to get the land to add the ramps, but whats a few million when they threw as much as they did at it. I would have settled for them putting a sign that said the shortest way, either to go to 131, or kalamazoo... but nothing was there.

They will build onramps at Division and at Eastern once the area develops enough to warrant it.

I had an idea spurred by our discussion about highways. Why doesn't the state purchace in advance land that it anticapates needing for road projects? If the plans fall through, they could always sell the property to developers. Since M6 had been in the works for 30+ years, they could have saved tons of money on the land aquisition, or profited a bunch if they had sold it off.

[mhelm]

I'm still wretching over the thought of Ottawa County becoming a big suburban sprawl mess. Makes me cheer for every downtown development even more!

[evac311]

If you guys think GR is bad as far as sprawl, you haven't been to Milwaukee. I am at a hotel in Menominee Falls right now, right off of highway 41. When you exit the highway, there is a taco bell, mcdonalds, burger king, arbys, pizza hut, wendys, kfc, and quiznos all RIGHT THERE. Not a single independant restaraunt. Behind this is a holiday inn thats shoved back into a conglomeration of offices and duplexes and condos. Behind the houses is one corporate headquarters. The only way in is a 25 mph boulivard that I would imagine makes it a pain in the ass to cross the street on a bike. There is only sidewalk on one side of the street, then it stops and crosses to the other side, then it just stops. I guess the kids will just have to walk in the street while the crazy ass moms mob through in their H2s while turned 180 degrees toward the back seat and jabbering away on their cell phones. None of the streets go anywhere because the only streets ever built are the ones that lead to that person's store. There is a Best Buy located along the highway which I assume they did to improve store visability. The problem is, the steets that lead to the store pass through a quiet little neighborhood. I went there and saw very few cars in the parking lot because nobody drives down that street unless specifically going to that store. It seems like this would be a crappy place to live. I think the zoning laws in Wisconsin are whacked out, because Milwaukee isn't the only place that one witnesses this phenomenon. Further north, towards Green Bay, you will see random sub divisions in the middle of rural areas. It's baffling because there wont be an established area for 20 miles in any direction.

I don't think GR is that bad when it comes to sprawl/zoning. The city limits are pretty clearly defined. Drive down 131 near 84th st and tell me I am wrong. There are pretty clear and abrupt changes in density near the limits of the city. This is not to say we can't improve, but we are far from the worst offenders.

Since someone brought this up, here are my impressions:

The M-6/Kalamazoo interchange:

One big cluster-f**k of sprawl. Not even attractive sprawl.

The new Meijer complex - A sea of parking lots, unattractive storefronts, big ugly privacy fences to buffer the neighboring homes, stagnant detention ponds, SAME OLD SAME OLD

Northwest of the interchange - more of the same, suburban style strip malls, suburban style apartment complex, gigantic setbacks from Kalamazoo

Northeast - not quite as bad, smaller setbacks, but that's about it

At least MDOT did the new highway interchange system which preserved some of the land

The M-6/Byron Center interchange

Will look exactly the same as the Kalamazoo interchange in 5 years

Only redeeming quality is the Metro Health Village, which we will check back in 5 years to see if they stick to the village plan

Just sayin my 2 cents

GRDad, can you give an example of what type of development you would like to see at these interchanges? Pictures of well-planned areas?

[snoogit]

I'm still wretching over the thought of Ottawa County becoming a big suburban sprawl mess. Makes me cheer for every downtown development even more!

Becoming?

My dear Mhelm it has already begun

[southender]

Have lived in in Gaines Township since late 1990s. My own experience with the South Beltline is generally positive. Yes it does take quite awhile longer to get from 68th to 60th on Kzoo compared to 10 years ago. And the southbound Kzoo turning lane into Gaines Marketplace frequently backs into the thru lanes.

However, it has also reduced traffic on surface streets(Kalamazoo south of 68th and on 76th street) and the sprawl has had little impact on traffic south of 68th from what I see.

The residents I personally know who moved from Crystal Springs did so due to job transfer, , the desire to move to a more rural setting in the GR metro area, and increasing concern about the EK school system. I suspect there is some NIMBYism as well.

I think that sprawl is a part of Americana, fueled by relatively inexpensive land, the rise of the automobile in the 20th century as our population was growing , relatively cheap fuel and low density housing. I agree with the concern of other posters regarding the inability of many strip malls/big box complexes to stay attractive to shoppers and compete against newer "sprawl."

[NorthEnder]

Have lived in in Gaines Township since late 1990s. My own experience with the South Beltline is generally positive. Yes it does take quite awhile longer to get from 68th to 60th on Kzoo compared to 10 years ago. And the southbound Kzoo turning lane into Gaines Marketplace frequently backs into the thru lanes.

However, it has also reduced traffic on surface streets(Kalamazoo south of 68th and on 76th street) and the sprawl has had little impact on traffic south of 68th from what I see.

The residents I personally know who moved from Crystal Springs did so due to job transfer, , the desire to move to a more rural setting in the GR metro area, and increasing concern about the EK school system. I suspect there is some NIMBYism as well.

I think that sprawl is a part of Americana, fueled by relatively inexpensive land, the rise of the automobile in the 20th century as our population was growing , relatively cheap fuel and low density housing. I agree with the concern of other posters regarding the inability of many strip malls/big box complexes to stay attractive to shoppers and compete against newer "sprawl."

Intresting name choice!

[GaryP]

We could use that billion and start multiple ITP rapid transit corridors.

I can't get this thought out of my head. What if we had spent the M-6 money on light rail?

[GRDadof3]

GRDad, can you give an example of what type of development you would like to see at these interchanges? Pictures of well-planned areas?

There are examples in suburban areas all over the country. Anything that de-emphasizes parking lots and reinforces walkability. Mixed use with residential. Green spaces mixed in.

You can also watch this video of a proposed transformation of the a typical retail corridor in Spokane into a much better planned town center with light rail connections to the center city:

http://www.nc3d.com/video.php?servr=nc3d&f...clip4=undefined

(choose your connection speed and media type)

It may take a while to load, but it's worth it. Just open another window and come back to UP while you wait

This website, Urban Advantage, does a great job of showing the possibilities of good planning using computer animation.

You guys should also check out the articles that are linked on the UrbanPlanet homepage:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/dyn/index.php

(bottom right hand column)

Working in real estate and development, I used to be oblivious to what was going on. But the older I get, the more I see that we keep repeating the mistakes of the past.

I just want my kids and future grandkids to not HAVE to deal with problems that we are creating for them, by just being concerned with what suits our needs today.

[Sunlover38]

M6 is great. No more 18 wheelers clogging up traffic on Byron Road from 131 to Zeeland!!! It is never crowded and you can drive 100 mph if you want as there are never any cops. . . haha . . I'm not advocating speeding . . just an observation . . . .of course development will follow. For those that don't care to see Meijer, Target and the other stores that follow, well I don't know how much worse that is than some of the old, ugly, abandoned buildings all along 131 . . between 44th St. and downtown along 131 is the ugliest stretch of highway ever. At least on M6 there are still trees and farmland . . . not everyone wants to live in a tiny little overpriced condo in a high-rise downtown w/ lousy parking and no back yard . . .some of us like the burbs!!!

[GRDadof3]

M6 is great. No more 18 wheelers clogging up traffic on Byron Road from 131 to Zeeland!!! It is never crowded and you can drive 100 mph if you want as there are never any cops. . . haha . . I'm not advocating speeding . . just an observation . . . .of course development will follow. For those that don't care to see Meijer, Target and the other stores that follow, well I don't know how much worse that is than some of the old, ugly, abandoned buildings all along 131 . . between 44th St. and downtown along 131 is the ugliest stretch of highway ever. At least on M6 there are still trees and farmland . . . not everyone wants to live in a tiny little overpriced condo in a high-rise downtown w/ lousy parking and no back yard . . .some of us like the burbs!!!

So what are you going to do in 5 years when it's not country anymore? Complain and move out another 5 miles? And then again, and again, and again, stretching infrastructure further and further out to where we can't afford the taxes to maintain it any longer? There are happy mediums between a house in the country and a tiny condo downtown.

I live in the near burbs now and can't stand it.

[Rizzo]

and increasing concern about the EK school system.

You're kidding?! Last time I checked EK was one of the area's top preforming factory schools. Let me guess, 'cause the black kids?

M6 is great. No more 18 wheelers clogging up traffic on Byron Road from 131 to Zeeland!!! It is never crowded and you can drive 100 mph if you want as there are never any cops. . . haha . . I'm not advocating speeding . . just an observation . . . .of course development will follow. For those that don't care to see Meijer, Target and the other stores that follow, well I don't know how much worse that is than some of the old, ugly, abandoned buildings all along 131 . . between 44th St. and downtown along 131 is the ugliest stretch of highway ever. At least on M6 there are still trees and farmland . . . not everyone wants to live in a tiny little overpriced condo in a high-rise downtown w/ lousy parking and no back yard . . .some of us like the burbs!!!

Old and ugly -- yes, but abandoned buildings?