M-6 Corridor Growth and Sprawl

[PBJ]

M6 is great. No more 18 wheelers clogging up traffic on Byron Road from 131 to Zeeland!!! It is never crowded and you can drive 100 mph if you want as there are never any cops. . . haha . . I'm not advocating speeding . . just an observation . . .

You're joking about the cops right? There are so many of them they are eating away at the medians from "hiding" that they've backfilled the drainage ditches near the over passes so their patrol cars don't sink in. I see at least one cop a day, usually once going in and once comming home.

I should bring my camera and take some pics of all of them.

As far as development, i think the point Jeff is making is there are ways to make the "suburbs" just what you want, with land and stuff, but still maintain good design and some density that help make it more sustainable.. just my $.02

[GRDadof3]

It is never crowded and you can drive 100 mph if you want as there are never any cops. . . haha . . I'm not advocating speeding . . just an observation . . . .of course development will follow. For those that don't care to see Meijer, Target and the other stores that follow, well I don't know how much worse that is than some of the old, ugly, abandoned buildings all along 131 . . between 44th St. and downtown along 131 is the ugliest stretch of highway ever. At least on M6 there are still trees and farmland

Wow, you can go 100 mph and not see old "icky" occupied buildings along 131, and it was only $650 million?! Sweet!

[Rizzo]

UrbanPlanet.org = Mlive Forum? ?

[LA Dave]

Wow -- what a fracas.

As someone who travels the most heavily congested freeways in the US every day (Saturday and Sunday included), I can only say this -- when the Ventura Freeway was opened in 1960, people marveled that you could travel 70 and get to the West Side or downtown in minutes.

Today -- during Holy Week when the schools are closed -- it took me almost an hour to get downtown, and I left late, after the alleged busiest time of rush hour. (We have traffic reports 24/7 in LA -- when I got here in the 80's, traffic reports were pretty much an artifact of the 7-10 and 4-7 hours).

I hope that M6 doesn't turn into a West Michigan version of US 101.

[Picture Michigan]

I had this long drawn out post typed out, but am changing my mind and only posting the following:

I see this turning a little into a mud slinging match over that which is largely "in the eye of the beholder."

Because one prefers something one way does not mean one should ridicule what the other one prefers.

i.e.:

Person A: I like red.

Person B: Well, I like blue.

Person A: Well, blue sucks.

Can't we at least present ideas of what we prefer and why we prefer it?

GRdad, thanks for posting those concepts. Good stuff. I would love to see more of this type of stuff in the burbs:

[francishsu]

Metro Health Village is already one real attempt to develop something different and it's along M-6. There are other examples, like in the St. Louis Metro area of walkable outdoor entertainment venues that are also located off of the I-270 bypass. But you cannot expect these types of developments to spring up at every exit ramp, just as you cannot conclude that undesirable development will occur at every ione.

What makes M-6 special as a bypass is that it not only makes business travel quicker, but it's also more efficient from a distance traveled standpoint. In a typical bypass going around a city, it helps alleviate traffic congestion going into the downtown, but does not always save travel time and certainly increases the # of miles that must be driven to go around the city. M-6 reduces travel time AND distance, in addition to the benefits provided by the typical bypass. And the route of M-6 is not a head scratcher, unlike the proposed US-31 bypass.

I can accept people who just don't want to build highways and more roads in general, but as far as road projects goes, this one represents a common-sense approach.

[francishsu]

I had this long drawn out post typed out, but am changing my mind and only posting the following:

Can't we at least present ideas of what we prefer and why we prefer it?

GRdad, thanks for posting those concepts. Good stuff. I would love to see more of this type of stuff in the burbs:

This might as well be a separate thread, because M-6 is really not directly releated. You can argue that those "urban village" type of areas would be nice to see just about anywhere. M-6 does not facilitate or prevent those types of things from being built, in my opinion. But if we do want it to remain focused on M-6 development, then throw out specific ideas and which exit ramp they should be off of.

[francishsu]

On thing that I wonder is whether The Rapid will eventually provide a bus route to Metro Health. 28th & Byron Center is along one route, and another route goes down Byron Center between 36th and 44th. Especially if Wyoming gets the Salvation Army Community Center at Lamar Park, I think a route connecting that with Metro Health village would be perfect. That's basically just going down the length of Byron Center.

[GRDadof3]

I had this long drawn out post typed out, but am changing my mind and only posting the following:

I see this turning a little into a mud slinging match over that which is largely "in the eye of the beholder."

Because one prefers something one way does not mean one should ridicule what the other one prefers.

i.e.:

Person A: I like red.

Person B: Well, I like blue.

Person A: Well, blue sucks.

Can't we at least present ideas of what we prefer and why we prefer it?

GRdad, thanks for posting those concepts. Good stuff. I would love to see more of this type of stuff in the burbs:

What were you going to post that you decided to hold back on? I think this is more than an "eye of the beholder" issue. It has to do with quality of life. This is, after all, an "urban" oriented forum in case you guys haven't noticed.

Metro Health's village is very encouraging, but again, we'll see if it pans out as planned. We've all seen what has happened to similar developments in the area, like Celebration Village.

Same with the Walker development being planned. Sounds great, but let's hope they stick with the plan.

Certain things set me off, and this is one of them.

Were you guys aware that any pedestrian entering the Rivertown Crossings Mall property from outside the property can be picked up for trespassing? Don't believe me? Call the General Manager, Randy, and find it out for yourself. Ever notice that the sidewalks going up to the mall property stop abruptly at the mall property? It just represents the anti-pedestrian car-only thinking going on. Boooo, General Growth!

[torgo]

On thing that I wonder is whether The Rapid will eventually provide a bus route to Metro Health.

Last I heard they were planning on it, but that was awhile ago.

[PBJ]

What were you going to post that you decided to hold back on? I think this is more than an "eye of the beholder" issue. It has to do with quality of life. This is, after all, an "urban" oriented forum in case you guys haven't noticed.

Metro Health's village is very encouraging, but again, we'll see if it pans out as planned. We've all seen what has happened to similar developments in the area, like Celebration Village.

Same with the Walker development being planned. Sounds great, but let's hope they stick with the plan.

Agreed...

What M-6 Facilitates is the ability to easily get to the south of town.... which in TURN promotes growth. That growth can be one of two things.. Suburban SPRAWL, which is the way it's starting to go.... OR it can be well designed suburban growth, which is what GRDad posted pictures of...

You are going to have a hard time finding fans of the "Big box store/mall 1/2 mile from the road with 129,038 parking space lot in the front by the road" around here..

M-6 Certainly promotes growth.. we just want it to be the RIGHT KIND of growth

[davidb]

LA of Lake Michigan here we come...

HAHA! I completely agree. All that is necessary is some infill to the west... And some mountain ranges, ten times the number of highways, and sunny skies and 70 degree weather

[francishsu]

So can we first summarize what development is currently happening along M-6? At Kalamazoo, we have a bunch of strip malls and big box retailers. At Byron Center we have Metro Health Village, a small strip mall and an apartment complex. At Wilson, I read something about Spectrum Health opening up a branch office there or something. I don't know what else is going on there. I have no idea what's going on at 8th Ave and at the Broadmoor exit.

Then there's the potential of development on roads like Eastern, Division, etc, that could result in the creation of an exit ramp.

[Picture Michigan]

What were you going to post that you decided to hold back on? I think this is more than an "eye of the beholder" issue. It has to do with quality of life. This is, after all, an "urban" oriented forum in case you guys haven't noticed.

It wasn't a matter of holding back. More like I didn't want to finish my thoughts. So here goes.

My personal philosophy:

(and I'm supposed to be doing taxes right now, not ranting)

I prefer to walk to stuff. I like restaurants and shopping within walking distance. Part of what I was originally going to say, was that when I was living in DT Chicago, I could walk to over 30 hotdog joints, a dozen Chinese restaurants, 20 movie screens, two grocery stores, etc. Walking distance was a mile.

Here in GR, that's laughable. Cripes, I go downtown GR, park, do some business, drive another half mile, park, and do more business. Because I can. Not so in Chicago. But it's much more pedestrian friendly there. It is that way out of necessity. In Chicago, you may end up parking a half mile from your destination.

On the other hand, I prefer a big back yard with a hot tub on the deck and a large grill. I've grilled on that deck the past few nights now for dinner. The hot tub is still chrysalizing from its winterized state.

When I lived in Royal Oak, I could walk to stuff. And I could grill-out in the spacious back yard. Best of both worlds.

Here in the GR 'burbs, I cannot walk to anything. Grrr. I miss that. There is not even a park my children to ride their bikes to without crossing a major road. More Grrr.

It's a matter of market demand. The market demands a huge Meijer at K'zoo Ave and M-6 and a huge Meijer parking lot next to it. If that Gain's Meijer had a parking ramp taking 1/10 of the space, prices would be considerably higher for bananas and soup and milk and bread.

We probably mostly agree on the issue of strip malls. So I won't go there.

Let me go in a different direction here.

I grew up in Comstock Park. As a child, I routinely walked (or rode bikes) downtown CP, went to the library, "party story" to play pinball, ice skate at the old fish hatchery ponds, enjoy ice cream at the Dairy Delight on a hot summer day. Life in the 'burbs with a "small" downtown appeal. My Mom would take me downtown GR occasionally for the Kiwanis Travelogue series. Imagine my excitement as a twelve year old boy looking up at the behemoth McKay tower! Then sitting in a huge Walsh Auditorium with a sea of people around me. COOL!

This is how I grew up. Most that are my age do not experience this. I'm 41. I regularly take my kids downtown GR and downtown Detroit. Most of my peers are shocked! Downtown? Isn't that dangerous?

I wish we all could experience the best of both worlds. I consider myself actually unfortunate. I love both worlds. I wish I could own a house on a large lot overlooking the water hazard of the 18th fairway and own a condo downtown on the 18th floor. Instead, I'm stuck in a ranch somewhere in between.

So for now, I hop in my car, get on the highway, and head downtown and enjoy a musical at the theater, or hop in my car, get on the highway, and head to Lake Michigan and enjoy a day at the beach. Also because of that ranch, I hop in my car, get on the highway, head downtown to pick up prints at the lab, stop at the library to get a couple books, head to Staples to buy a case of paper and a red stapler, head to Meijer for groceries, and back into my garage to unload it all.

It really wouldn't make any difference if I lived on the 18th floor or on the 18th fairway. Meijer will have a large parking lot anyway and I would park on it.

Wouldn't it be easier if we all just did a conference call on this?

[GRDadof3]

It wasn't a matter of holding back. More like I didn't want to finish my thoughts. So here goes.

My personal philosophy:

(and I'm supposed to be doing taxes right now, not ranting)

I prefer to walk to stuff. I like restaurants and shopping within walking distance. Part of what I was originally going to say, was that when I was living in DT Chicago, I could walk to over 30 hotdog joints, a dozen Chinese restaurants, 20 movie screens, two grocery stores, etc. Walking distance was a mile.

Here in GR, that's laughable. Cripes, I go downtown GR, park, do some business, drive another half mile, park, and do more business. Because I can. Not so in Chicago. But it's much more pedestrian friendly there. It is that way out of necessity. In Chicago, you may end up parking a half mile from your destination.

On the other hand, I prefer a big back yard with a hot tub on the deck and a large grill. I've grilled on that deck the past few nights now for dinner. The hot tub is still chrysalizing from its winterized state.

When I lived in Royal Oak, I could walk to stuff. And I could grill-out in the spacious back yard. Best of both worlds.

Here in the GR 'burbs, I cannot walk to anything. Grrr. I miss that. There is not even a park my children to ride their bikes to without crossing a major road. More Grrr.

It's a matter of market demand. The market demands a huge Meijer at K'zoo Ave and M-6 and a huge Meijer parking lot next to it. If that Gain's Meijer had a parking ramp taking 1/10 of the space, prices would be considerably higher for bananas and soup and milk and bread.

We probably mostly agree on the issue of strip malls. So I won't go there.

Let me go in a different direction here.

I grew up in Comstock Park. As a child, I routinely walked (or rode bikes) downtown CP, went to the library, "party story" to play pinball, ice skate at the old fish hatchery ponds, enjoy ice cream at the Dairy Delight on a hot summer day. Life in the 'burbs with a "small" downtown appeal. My Mom would take me downtown GR occasionally for the Kiwanis Travelogue series. Imagine my excitement as a twelve year old boy looking up at the behemoth McKay tower! Then sitting in a huge Walsh Auditorium with a sea of people around me. COOL!

This is how I grew up. Most that are my age do not experience this. I'm 41. I regularly take my kids downtown GR and downtown Detroit. Most of my peers are shocked! Downtown? Isn't that dangerous?

I wish we all could experience the best of both worlds. I consider myself actually unfortunate. I love both worlds. I wish I could own a house on a large lot overlooking the water hazard of the 18th fairway and own a condo downtown on the 18th floor. Instead, I'm stuck in a ranch somewhere in between.

So for now, I hop in my car, get on the highway, and head downtown and enjoy a musical at the theater, or hop in my car, get on the highway, and head to Lake Michigan and enjoy a day at the beach. Also because of that ranch, I hop in my car, get on the highway, head downtown to pick up prints at the lab, stop at the library to get a couple books, head to Staples to buy a case of paper and a red stapler, head to Meijer for groceries, and back into my garage to unload it all.

It really wouldn't make any difference if I lived on the 18th floor or on the 18th fairway. Meijer will have a large parking lot anyway and I would park on it.

Wouldn't it be easier if we all just did a conference call on this?

Seriously, that sounds a lot like my situation. I'm still searching, and if I can just get my wife on board too.

[AlexPKeaton]

I largely agree. While I love city living, it really just doesn't exist in GR. Further, there are some things about having a house with a yard that I'd hate to give up. I like having a private garage and room to work on my bike. In a condo where do you keep your messy stuff? Can you even change your own oil? Where do you wash your car?

But I love city life because I don't have to cut the grass or maintain anything. I love being able to walk places. I wish we had more places worth walking to in downtown GR.

-nb

[numstead]

I was out at the Metro Health "Village" around lunch today to snap some pics for a couple of our projects. That place is a barren wasteland right now. They've been developing that project for a couple years now and all there is to show for it is a hulking, banal hospital and the steel skeleton of an MOB. Its very difficult to envision an end product.

[francishsu]

I was out at the Metro Health "Village" around lunch today to snap some pics for a couple of our projects. That place is a barren wasteland right now. They've been developing that project for a couple years now and all there is to show for it is a hulking, banal hospital and the steel skeleton of an MOB. Its very difficult to envision an end product.

Metro has already stated that the entire village may take up to 7 years to be completed. Frog Hollow playground was actually the first piece completed. The hospital is not scheduled to open fall 2007 and some other buildings are going to be built and open for business earlier. Aside from the hospital, I've read about the following buildings/developments:

1. Granger Group - site plans have been approved for a 30000sf medical office building, the primary tenant being Michigan Obstetrics & Gynecology, PC and a 10000sf retail building with Starbucks as one of the tenants.

2. Pro Care Systems - site plan approved for a 22000sf medical office building

Maybe their promo brochure might give a better idea of what they want to accomplish:

http://www.metrohealth.net/village/brochure.php

[GRDadof3]

I largely agree. While I love city living, it really just doesn't exist in GR. Further, there are some things about having a house with a yard that I'd hate to give up. I like having a private garage and room to work on my bike. In a condo where do you keep your messy stuff? Can you even change your own oil? Where do you wash your car?

But I love city life because I don't have to cut the grass or maintain anything. I love being able to walk places. I wish we had more places worth walking to in downtown GR.

-nb

There are some areas in the city of GR that I have my eyes on though, to see if things pan out like those neighborhoods are hoping for. Walking distance to stores, coffee shops, services, parks, schools, and other things important to us. For us, schools are an issue, so it's a very touchy discussion in our household But I'd personally like to get in before property values skyrocket like I think they will. There is more to the city of Grand Rapids than just "downtown".

Off topic though.

[GRDadof3]

Whaddayaknow! Here's an article today about Michigan Townships and sprawl, and how Michigan's rate of development is 8X the population growth, the worst in the Country (the national average is 2.5 times the population growth).

http://www.mlive.com/mbusinessreview/west/...620.xml&coll=12

Some great exerpts:

"I think sometimes townships, they talk about not wanting urban sprawl, but at the same time they're planning and zoning processes, they create it," said Rockford Cos. chief operating officer Kurt Hassberger. "There's a bit of a disconnect. A lot of time when a developer comes in with a higher density project, they resist that, yet they talk about sprawl."

Planners have "embraced the notion that the way to deal with sprawl is to spread things out," Rustem agreed.

----------------------------------------

But Hassberger argues there is plenty of development opportunity in western Michigan's urban cores.

"A bigger issue is our need to focus on rehabilitating and redeveloping the buildings we already have, that already have roads running by them, that already have utilities. We really need to look inward more than we do," Hassberger said.

-----------------------------------------

Sometimes municipalities not only ignore sprawl, they enforce it.

Many zoning ordinances dictate large parking lots with commercial developments -- far more blacktop than is ever used in some cases.

[Sunlover38]

To each his own I guess with respect to where you live. I love having green grass, trees and a view of wildlife & not a brick building . . and no neighbors on top of me. I absolutely agree, however, that every tiny bit of land does not need to be developed and there are probably better space plans that could be developed. I don't have to drive everywhere where I live either. . .biking gets me to the store and back albiet I take my life in my hands on some of the roads w/ no trails . . . haha But this is the wrong forum for trying to extol the virtures of burb life . . . .

As far as M6 and the coppers go, I don't know where you folks are seeing them but I sure don't and I take it every single day. I go about 75 m.p.h. and some times get crazy up to 80 m.p.h. and still get blown over by speed demons . . . . .it is incredibly annoying.

[francishsu]

As far as M6 and the coppers go, I don't know where you folks are seeing them but I sure don't and I take it every single day. I go about 75 m.p.h. and some times get crazy up to 80 m.p.h. and still get blown over by speed demons . . . . .it is incredibly annoying.

I think the person who said he could drive 100mph was actually referring to Byron Rd. As M-6 has reduced the trend of commercial traffic increasing on Byron Rd, he was saying that now he can drive faster along there.

Speed demons are on every freeway. On 196, there's this one motorcyle driver that blows by me going at least 120. He shows up spring - fall I think. I have seen cops on M-6, but not often. There are many places for them to hide. On 196 between M-6 and Holland, I tend to slow down at a couple of key places.

[Mark Miller]

This is a great topic and excellent discussion.

At least on M6 there are still trees and farmland . . . not everyone wants to live in a tiny little overpriced condo in a high-rise downtown w/ lousy parking and no back yard . . .some of us like the burbs!!!

There will not be trees and farmland for long. It will be engulfed in sprawl. That is what sprawl does, it is a cancer that destroys both rural and urban. For all the people that moved to this area to enjoy the rural, they can kiss it good-by. M6 and the growth that it brings will turn it to suburban sprawl.

What M-6 Facilitates is the ability to easily get to the south of town.... which in TURN promotes growth. That growth can be one of two things.. Suburban SPRAWL, which is the way it's starting to go.... OR it can be well designed suburban growth, which is what GRDad posted pictures of...

I have yet to see well designed suburban growth. The photos posted here are of urbanism. The entire spectrum of urbanism contains a sub-urban element, but it is NOT the same as the suburban (and exurban) asteroid belts being built around Grand Rapids, with no connection to anything, except via the automobile.

My problem with M-6 is that it is an absolute boondoggle of taxpayer money by a government that does not have the money to spend. It is called public investment. It is not. It is a subsidy to the automobile and to the industries that represent "growth", aka sprawl. If a billion dollars were spent on public transit or light rail (which is where it should have been spent), opponents would have cried foul. They would have called it government subsidy and certainly not pubic investment. While these same people call highway construction public investment.

This project, with all the interchanges, will definately promote growth. That growth will not be urbanism. It will be low-density monoculture with no connection to anything else. It will be auto-centered. It will not be pedestrian oriented. The rural character of this area will be gone. The only way to have rural character is by building urbanism. Building the way we have, for the last 50 years will not preserve rural character.

This project will go down as one of the biggest wastes of taxpayers dollars in the history of West Michigan. Future generations will wonder how we could have pissed away so much money for so little return all in the process of destroying the public realm and more importantly our access to viable productive farmland. When these generations are struggling to feed themselves, this will be a monument to the wastefulness of our culture.

Were you guys aware that any pedestrian entering the Rivertown Crossings Mall property from outside the property can be picked up for trespassing? Don't believe me? Call the General Manager, Randy, and find it out for yourself. Ever notice that the sidewalks going up to the mall property stop abruptly at the mall property? It just represents the anti-pedestrian car-only thinking going on. Boooo, General Growth!

As a side note, we did a project adjacent to Rivertown, not sure of the name anymore, but it is a large apartment and condo development. All pedestrian access was cut off with berms and trees. Walking to the mall was heavily discouraged. It makes no sense to not allow hundreds of potential customers, who are within walking distance of this monstrosity, to be able to walk to it. They are forced to get into their cars and drive. Where is the choice here? Where is the democracy? We wonder why the places that we build are absolute atrocities, short sited policies like this is why!!

[twoshort]

As a side note, we did a project adjacent to Rivertown, not sure of the name anymore, but it is a large apartment and condo development. All pedestrian access was cut off with berms and trees. Walking to the mall was heavily discouraged. It makes no sense to not allow hundreds of potential customers, who are within walking distance of this monstrosity, to be able to walk to it. They are forced to get into their cars and drive. Where is the choice here? Where is the democracy? We wonder why the places that we build are absolute atrocities, short sited policies like this is why!!

I wonder if there's someone else in this forum who might know more about that project?

[torgo]

"I think sometimes townships, they talk about not wanting urban sprawl, but at the same time they're planning and zoning processes, they create it," said Rockford Cos. chief operating officer Kurt Hassberger. "There's a bit of a disconnect. A lot of time when a developer comes in with a higher density project, they resist that, yet they talk about sprawl."

Well no kidding.

Planners have "embraced the notion that the way to deal with sprawl is to spread things out," Rustem agreed.

I dont think this is really true, at least not among professional planners. I think alot of small-town commissioners believe that though.

But Hassberger argues there is plenty of development opportunity in western Michigan's urban cores.

"A bigger issue is our need to focus on rehabilitating and redeveloping the buildings we already have, that already have roads running by them, that already have utilities. We really need to look inward more than we do," Hassberger said.

Again, duh. Everybody knows that too.

Sometimes municipalities not only ignore sprawl, they enforce it.

Many zoning ordinances dictate large parking lots with commercial developments -- far more blacktop than is ever used in some cases.

Yup, once again, everybody knows that too.

These articles, while on-point and fun to read, are very frustrating. Everyone makes it sound like a city or township or region can just say "ok, no more sprawl" and then it will go away. Its a simple look at a complicated problem, and these articles always avoid the real issues behind it all, and therefore offer no practical solution. "We really need to look inward more than we do," is barely even a starting point, much less a solution.

Its easy to focus on whats wrong, but I think everybody knows whats wrong. Its alot harder to figure out how to fix it.

end rant