Westin Hotel/Condos & Project Forty Fifth

[jcaruth]

Since this is mostly a condo project it is possible it could be financed to large degree by preconstruction condo sales. Most people really serious about getting into one of these would want to buy them early and get them at a considerable discount. Of course, a lot of condo projects get scrapped when preconstruction sales lag which indicates a lack of demand.

It's interesting that you're seeing so much interest in condo development in Northwest and Central AR when most of the country is seeing most projects going to the condo graveyard right now. There's a whole virtual city of scrapped projects in South Florida.

He's right...this report just came out a couple of hours ago:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14121025/

[Mith242]

The places that are doing well with condos right now are the same ones that seem to be braving the housing market in general. Fortunately Arkansas along with Texas, Louisiana, and most of the mid-South is in this boat. In fact, Dallas's uptown condo craze is really a pretty new thing.

Still, high-rise condos cater to a specific market - mostly middle-aged singles or divorcees without kids at home or older empty-nest couples. Most young professionals are priced out at this level.

I like the trend as well and I hope it continues. It's funny that downtowns across the country transitioned from retail centers to office towers and now are becoming filled with residential projects. Downtown Dallas only had 1000 residents before the latest slew of projects. It would be nice to see downtowns across the country become filled with dense high-rise residential and walkable communities. Of course, this building is a little different but you get what I'm saying.

I'm kind of surprised they didn't go multiuse with this project and include several floors of office space.

I would like to see some more effort going into providing some cheaper options of condos as well. But I do like the current trend. It was a bit odd, for many places in the world living closer to the downtown area was favorable and the poorer people lived on the outskirts of town. It was just a bit odd to see it completely the opposite here in the US. But I really prefer to grow up than outward so I'm certainly the trend continues even if Fayetteville won't let everyone build up quite as high as many would like. But I think this would also be a great thing for the Benton County part of the metro as well.

[mcheiss]

The places that are doing well with condos right now are the same ones that seem to be braving the housing market in general. Fortunately Arkansas along with Texas, Louisiana, and most of the mid-South is in this boat. In fact, Dallas's uptown condo craze is really a pretty new thing.

Midsized Downtowns are where condo developments are happening these days.

South Florida is losing so many condo projects due to this trend appearing all over the nation. I recently heard about 8 or 9 large projects in Miami being cancelled. It seems like Florida (Particularly South Florida) has maxed out it's condo development. Although this was one of the first places in the nation to see this kind of development boom, it seems the markets are catching up. Even Atlanta and Charlotte have had projects put on hold and cancelled.

I still see a good future for mid-sized markets like NW Arkansas, Tulsa, and Nashville where condo craze isn't as bad as South Florida, Charlotte, etc.

[Mith242]

I misunderstood and thought this was all going to be a hotel at first and was kind of worried about it being way too large. If most of this is going to be condos and only 330 hotels rooms will be there it seems pretty reasonable. I'm not really worried about the high cost of the condos (AB News said $350-400 per SF when most high-end NWA real estate is going for $125 per). There is little to compete with it in Benton Co in terms of condos though there are some nice ones on Dickson. That said, if this and that project on Beaver Lake both happen I wouldn't be lining to build more luxury condos yet after this thing's built.

Hmmm...I seem to be missing posts made just before the ones I make. Anyway even though the condo market seems to be slowing down overall. There's still not many in Benton County yet that I know of. Maybe there will be room for some more. But as I've mentioned before I wouldn't mind seeing someone try to do some condos that weren't in the luxury category. I think some more reasonably priced condos could do well in the market.

He's right...this report just came out a couple of hours ago:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14121025/

Yeah I had heard condos mentioned in particular but I have been hearing how the housing market has really slowed down in most parts of the country. NWA seems to be reflecting this as well. Although locally I still think the bigger problem is the fact that developers tried pushing the more expensive ones. I think there's still good demand for stuff under $225,000.

Midsized Downtowns are where condo developments are happening these days.

South Florida is losing so many condo projects due to this trend appearing all over the nation. I recently heard about 8 or 9 large projects in Miami being cancelled. It seems like Florida (Particularly South Florida) has maxed out it's condo development. Although this was one of the first places in the nation to see this kind of development boom, it seems the markets are catching up. Even Atlanta and Charlotte have had projects put on hold and cancelled.

I still see a good future for mid-sized markets like NW Arkansas, Tulsa, and Nashville where condo craze isn't as bad as South Florida, Charlotte, etc.

Yeah I think I have to agree with you. Although once again I think some of this will hinge on developers. If they market everything in the luxury condo market then I think things will slow down. There's money in the area but people aren't going to buy a condo several condos in the metro. If developers focus onm some more reasonable priced condos I think there's still a market. You'll just have to look to other areas away from Dickson and the Square.

[Aporkalypse]

Midsized Downtowns are where condo developments are happening these days.

South Florida is losing so many condo projects due to this trend appearing all over the nation. I recently heard about 8 or 9 large projects in Miami being cancelled. It seems like Florida (Particularly South Florida) has maxed out it's condo development. Although this was one of the first places in the nation to see this kind of development boom, it seems the markets are catching up. Even Atlanta and Charlotte have had projects put on hold and cancelled.

I still see a good future for mid-sized markets like NW Arkansas, Tulsa, and Nashville where condo craze isn't as bad as South Florida, Charlotte, etc.

The problem in South Florida is that people were "trading in condos", flipping them by buying them preconstruction and selling them later at a profit. In that rapidly escalating market there was constant demand for new development because of investors, not because of "real" buyers. It's also much harder to gauge demand there because so many of the condos serve as second residences for wealthy Northeasterners and Latin Americans that residential growth in the area wasn't what was driving construction the way it is in almost every other market. I have no doubt it is overbuilt but eventually the market will right itself and the condo market will continue to grow.

Another comparable market, though less volatile, is Honolulu. There was a big condo crash there several years ago but it has since corrected.

The urban condo craze elsewhere is a different animal altogether. It's a cool idea to be able to live within walking distance of the downtown offices where you work and near restaurants and entertainment districts. However, these really serve a specific group of wealth empty-nesters and the childless singles/divorcees. Few of these are second homes. Still, that urban village feel is really fueling growth in lots of cities.

This project is quite different than these others. There will be many amenities in the building but it's not going to be in the middle of a downtown in a walkable area. It's kind of a strange thing, really, when you think about it to have a high-rise condo tower so remote from other high-density residential. I think it might do well because of the lack of upscale condos in Benton Co but I don't think you can compare it to what's going on in Nashville, Tulsa, or LR because it's a different animal. I think the condo market in Fayetteville, though, is driven by the same forces as in the larger cities - it's just by design more mid-rise.

I have a good friend that made quite a bit of money in the condo market in Vegas and Miami and he's getting out. I wouldn't put much money into condos right now anywhere, I think the chance of making big profits on short-term appreciation right now is nil. I think a lot of vultures are waiting for the condo market to crash and those trapped in interest only mortgages and ARMs to be forced to sell low, driving prices down. Picking up properties at those low prices will allow you to make a big profit when the market recovers. I have to admit, if this happens I'll be tempted to hop on board.

[Mith242]

I hate to get us further off topic here but I wonder after Crystal Bridges is complete is downtown Bentonville will eventually start attracting some condos and development that has happened around Dickson.

[KJW]

I hate to get us further off topic here but I wonder after Crystal Bridges is complete is downtown Bentonville will eventually start attracting some condos and development that has happened around Dickson.

Mith,

I think there's actually a smaller (than the Legacy) condo project planned for the north side of Central Street immediately across from the Bentonville city hall/current library location...this is west of the town square and the Wal-Mart museum. They've not started building it yet but I'm sure I remember seeing drawings of this in the paper a few months back.

[Aporkalypse]

I hate to get us further off topic here but I wonder after Crystal Bridges is complete is downtown Bentonville will eventually start attracting some condos and development that has happened around Dickson.

I could see a lot of mid-rise stuff.

However, it would be a shame to see a lot of the older homes in downtown Bentonville torn down. I bet those will all be million dollar homes at some point. It's kind of weird that B'ville downtown real estate hasn't gone through the roof. I can certainly think of poorer investments than buying up everything you can around there.

[Mith242]

I could see a lot of mid-rise stuff.

However, it would be a shame to see a lot of the older homes in downtown Bentonville torn down. I bet those will all be million dollar homes at some point. It's kind of weird that B'ville downtown real estate hasn't gone through the roof. I can certainly think of poorer investments than buying up everything you can around there.

True, when I went down to the Bentonville Square a while back ago for the first time I did see a lot of nice older homes in the area.

[Lady Celeste]

He's right...this report just came out a couple of hours ago:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14121025/

Yikes. Let's hope this trend does not happen all over the country.

Even Atlanta and Charlotte have had projects put on hold and cancelled.

Which projects in Atlanta and Charlotte have been cancelled or put on hold?

[mcheiss]

Yikes. Let's hope this trend does not happen all over the country.

Which projects in Atlanta and Charlotte have been cancelled or put on hold?

I guess the words I should have used were, "At Risk Of being put on hold or cancelled".

My bad.

[dimebag1980]

This thread is amazing, and the height AND design of that Westin is outstanding! Did I read correctly in the beginning of this thread that the hotel just became public knowledge, hadn't even yet received approval, AND was getting ready to break ground, all within a week's time?

[masons_dad1]

I like the trend as well and I hope it continues. It's funny that downtowns across the country transitioned from retail centers to office towers and now are becoming filled with residential projects. Downtown Dallas only had 1000 residents before the latest slew of projects. It would be nice to see downtowns across the country become filled with dense high-rise residential and walkable communities. Of course, this building is a little different but you get what I'm saying.

It would be great if the Federal or at least State governments would create tax incentives for developers to create high density housing and mixed-use housing since it would:

A. Have less environmental impact (to appease those liberal conservationists out there)

B. People wouldn't have to drive as far which saves on gas

C. Increased security since there would be less acreage to patrol

D. More cost-effective "Green Building" development with less impact on energy production

E. Less demand on the city's infrastructure (sewage treatment, roads, power lines)

F. Anything else you can think of :-)

[masons_dad1]

Mith,

I think there's actually a smaller (than the Legacy) condo project planned for the north side of Central Street immediately across from the Bentonville city hall/current library location...this is west of the town square and the Wal-Mart museum. They've not started building it yet but I'm sure I remember seeing drawings of this in the paper a few months back.

That's the 4-story Tate & Haney Building that's been in the works for a few years now. Here's a snippet from the news article:

The first floor will hold retail spots. The second and third floors will hold professional offices and commercial space. The fourth floor will house up to 11 residential units, ranging from 700 to 1,200 square feet. The apartments will be for sale, and some will have rooftop gardens, Haney said.

Read the full article here: Developers announce building downtown - NWAnews.com

[mcheiss]

^

More Appealing, IMO.

[Hoggy Bear]

Well we know of the Westin, and we know of the Holliday Inn, and the expansio of the Embassay Suites...does anyone know of another one or two hotels that are coming in? One thing I really like about all the hotels is that there is a better chance for NWA to get larger events, such as a first and second round of the NCAA tournament, or other events that require so many nice hotels.

Per the NW Arkansas News...other hotels coming into Rogers:

Embassy Suites: adding 400 rooms, with 6 story tower that supposed to span 1/2 mile

Homewood Suites by Hilton

Country Inn & Suites

22 story Westin Hotel (on 45th)--700,000 sq ft, 352 rooms, and 50 condomiums, 8000 square foot restaurant, and 20,000 sq ft of retail space

[masons_dad1]

I could see a lot of mid-rise stuff.

However, it would be a shame to see a lot of the older homes in downtown Bentonville torn down. I bet those will all be million dollar homes at some point. It's kind of weird that B'ville downtown real estate hasn't gone through the roof. I can certainly think of poorer investments than buying up everything you can around there.

Tate & Haney has owned several building in Downtown Bentonville and 7 buildings near the Bentonville Square. They have restored and renovated several older buildings and have been investing in the Bentonville area for the last couple decades. The new Tate & Haney Building, a 4-story mixed-use condo development, will only tear down an ugly 1-story metal structure that's bordered on all sides by beautiful historic buildings. There are quite a few very large historic homes just a couple blocks south of the Bentonville Square. It's one of the most beautiful neighborhoods in NWA to walk through... just don't go to far to the south as there's a quick change in scenery if you know what I mean.

[dimebag1980]

Embassy Suites: adding 400 rooms, with 6 story tower that supposed to span 1/2 mile

1/2-mile? That's insane!

[Aporkalypse]

Tate & Haney has owned several building in Downtown Bentonville and 7 buildings near the Bentonville Square. They have restored and renovated several older buildings and have been investing in the Bentonville area for the last couple decades. The new Tate & Haney Building, a 4-story mixed-use condo development, will only tear down an ugly 1-story metal structure that's bordered on all sides by beautiful historic buildings. There are quite a few very large historic homes just a couple blocks south of the Bentonville Square. It's one of the most beautiful neighborhoods in NWA to walk through... just don't go to far to the south as there's a quick change in scenery if you know what I mean.

I think all of that could potentially be restored at some point to be a better neighborhood.

I love those historic homes you're referring to, they remind me of the Quapaw Quarter (except in a safer area). The square itself really is very pretty as well. I'm glad to see that they're replacing structures that don't fit the area with condos instead of the historic homes. NWA, especially Benton Co, needs to cling to the history it has.

[razorbackfan]

1/2-mile? That's insane!

I drove by it yesterday and they are working on the second floor and there is no way its a half mile long..the newspaper writer who wrote that is crazy. It is a pretty good size though.

[mcheiss]

I drove by it yesterday and they are working on the second floor and there is no way its a half mile long..the newspaper writer who wrote that is crazy. It is a pretty good size though.

Agreed. 1/2 a mile is 2,700ish feet.

[jdevers]

Agreed. 1/2 a mile is 2,700ish feet.

Maybe they meant the whole complex (I haven't been up there in a while, so am just making a supposition)?

[masons_dad1]

Maybe they meant the whole complex (I haven't been up there in a while, so am just making a supposition)?

Maybe the meant 1/2 circumference around the complex.

[dimebag1980]

I was going to say.... geez.

It sounds like a nice complex, though. To spread 400 rooms over a 6-story building, it would have to be pretty wide.

I really like the 22-story Westin, though... THAT is a classy hotel!!

[nj829]

Embassy will be a total of 400 rooms...only 152 are being added on. The 1/2 mile may be from property line to property line once the new addition and parking lot is built, as it will be a bit of a hike from one end of the convention center parking lot to the other end of the new addition parking lot. Otherwise, there better be those people movers like at the airport to get from one end to the other!!