Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[Guest]

Call me weird, but there's something almost romantic about overhead wires to me. I mention my mom's home city of Antwerp a lot, but the city has an extensive tram network, and the overhead wires and tracks in the street just add a vibe to the city. I don't think the Gold Line will feel exactly the same, but one can dream. For me clutter and congestion are exciting, I understand not wanting wires on the square, but especially to outsiders, seeing the wires over the street adds yet another layer to their intrigue of this city that surprises first time visitors. 

Those kinds of overhead wires are fine. They mean progress.


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[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

I believe Philly has a portion of their Streetcar route go underground.  With cost aside, imagine a subway streetcar section all under Trade.  It would start at the CTC stop, travel underground and pop back up at the JWU stop.  How awesome would it be to have a subway entrance at the square.  One can dream lol.  Back to reality, I am looking forward to the new (reliable) modern streetcars though. 

[dubone]

Well organized catenaries are hardly the wires any of us complain about.   The chaotic mess scribbled across a developing urban neighborhood is an affront to any one's aesthetic and especially when we plant street trees to help build up canopy yet they get crown before they even grow the slightest bit.  

Definitely streetcar catenaries don't interfere much, but I am glad they were able to use the hybrid vehicles that can avoid wires in the ceremonious heart of the city where parades and concerts are nearly constant.  

[Spartan]

On 8/30/2018 at 4:40 PM, ChessieCat said:

Here at UP we hate overhead wires.  

Nanjing, China was the first city to launch a wireless tram using Bomardier's technology and that was three years ago:

https://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/10/bombardier-primove-break-battery-powered-tram-record/

Wires are uncecessary for anything within 25 miles. The Gold Line would max out at 10 miles if Phase 3 ever gets built.  All you need are the rails, stations and ground-level electric induction.

Thoughts?

1- I'd really like to own a Tesla, but I can get a Honda that will do the same job for significantly less money.

2- I'm not a fan of authoritarian governments, but when the government doesn't really have to care about what people think, it's much easier to implement major projects like that one in China.

[ChessieCat]

On 9/15/2018 at 11:16 AM, Spartan said:

1- I'd really like to own a Tesla, but I can get a Honda that will do the same job for significantly less money.

2- I'm not a fan of authoritarian governments, but when the government doesn't really have to care about what people think, it's much easier to implement major projects like that one in China.

Bombardier just rolled out wireless trams in a mountainous region of Germany where building power lines is cumbersome to say the least.  The German government will subsidize €4 million of the project but what form of transportation is not subsidized, even in a democracy?

https://electrek.co/2018/09/14/bombardier-battery-powered-train/

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by ChessieCat

[videtur quam contuor]

This is widely known but I will add it to the discussion: Diesel locomotives are ubiquitous and their motive power is electricity. Diesel powers the onboard generator which moves the wheels and other functions. The greatest advantage of electric power is 100% torque at zero RPM. Moving great weight from a dead stop requires electric power and once underway the diesel can loaf for some of the journey.

[NYtoCLT]

When the 2020 streetcar is done (assuming it gets done) and runs through Elizabeth to PM, do people think development along the line in Elizabeth will be significant?  Specifically with respect to it running down Hawthorne to PM.  Right now its mostly homes and some light commercial after the hospital.  Do you think the area around where Sabor/Hawthorne Pizza are will see an increase in density?

[Missmylab4]

Yes.

[sakami]

1 hour ago, Missmylab4 said:

Yes.

Really? Where do you see that increase happening? That is a pretty short stretch of street and short of tearing down a few of the small condo complexes and the DPR building  it doesn’t feel like there’s a way to add much. 

[Hushpuppy321]

I think what'll be key to helping development grow along the Streetcar Line will be if certain parcels/properties receive (or able to be rezoned) to the new TOD Designations.   

[archiham04]

^^^This may or may not be exactly where you are talking about, but the block bounded by Sunnyside, Hawthorne, Central and Oakland is 98% assembled.

 

[NYtoCLT]

18 hours ago, archiham04 said:

^^^This may or may not be exactly where you are talking about, but the block bounded by Sunnyside, Hawthorne, Central and Oakland is 98% assembled.

 

Assembled?

[Third Strike]

32 minutes ago, NYtoCLT said:

Assembled?

Means most of the parcels in this block have been purchased by a company in hopes of rezoning, and subsequently, redeveloping. Considering the size of this block, and that it’s at the terminus of the Gold Line, I’m guessing apartments, retail, and maybe office space. I’m personally hoping for a new grocery store like Publix since I believe Plaza-Midwood can support two supermarkets, and that Belmont and Optimist Park will finally have close access to fresh food. 

[SgtCampsalot]

21 hours ago, archiham04 said:

^^^This may or may not be exactly where you are talking about, but the block bounded by Sunnyside, Hawthorne, Central and Oakland is 98% assembled.

 

 

1 hour ago, Third Strike said:

Means most of the parcels in this block have been purchased by a company in hopes of rezoning, and subsequently, redeveloping. Considering the size of this block, and that it’s at the terminus of the Gold Line, I’m guessing apartments, retail, and maybe office space. I’m personally hoping for a new grocery store like Publix since I believe Plaza-Midwood can support two supermarkets, and that Belmont and Optimist Park will finally have close access to fresh food. 

Is that the purple block you're referring to (below?) That whole block is almost exclusively single-family homes (plus the industrial office properties), so I can live with that.

The red block is filled with fourplexes, duplexes, and townhomes. That would be a travesty...

[Third Strike]

2 hours ago, SgtCampsalot said:

 

Is that the purple block you're referring to (below?) That whole block is almost exclusively single-family homes (plus the industrial office properties), so I can live with that.

The red block is filled with fourplexes, duplexes, and townhomes. That would be a travesty...

It’s the purple. Some of the homes and businesses have been acquired by a “1201 Central LLC”. 

[nashbill]

On 8/31/2018 at 9:27 AM, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

I believe Philly has a portion of their Streetcar route go underground.  With cost aside, imagine a subway streetcar section all under Trade.  It would start at the CTC stop, travel underground and pop back up at the JWU stop.  How awesome would it be to have a subway entrance at the square.  One can dream lol.  Back to reality, I am looking forward to the new (reliable) modern streetcars though. 

Pittsburgh does have a light rail system that is underground in the downtown area.  It travels under the Allegheny river to the North Shore where the stadiums are and it comes out of the ground to cross a bridge over the Monongahela river to the South Side. It is not a big subway system, but I think they did it right by keeping it underground in the down town area. 

[Nick2]

2 hours ago, nashbill said:

Pittsburgh does have a light rail system that is underground in the downtown area.  It travels under the Allegheny river to the North Shore where the stadiums are and it comes out of the ground to cross a bridge over the Monongahela river to the South Side. It is not a big subway system, but I think they did it right by keeping it underground in the down town area. 

I really hope they have the foresight to run the east/west line (whether it's silver, airport, or something else entirely) underground through uptown.

[kermit]

5 hours ago, Nick2 said:

I really hope they have the foresight to run the east/west line (whether it's silver, airport, or something else entirely) underground through uptown.

I think we will hear the outlines of the big bang funding plan (as a trial balloon) relatively soon. Ideally they want to see how express buses on the toll lanes are recieved, the BLE to be finished (including Sugar Creek) and ridership to look better first.

If I were a betting man I would say that the plan will include an uptown tunnel, but the budget will get away from them after full engineering is completed  and it will be VEd out. (But I am a pessimist)

Edited November 24, 2018 by kermit

[Scribe]

43 minutes ago, kermit said:

If I were a betting man I would say that the plan will include an uptown tunnel, but the budget will get away from them after full engineering is completed  and it will be VEd out. (But I am a pessimist)

Agree that the Uptown Tunnel will be part of the big bang plan, but I think it will not be VEd out. (partly 'cause I'm an optimist) Charlotte has pulled off stunts in the past ... replacing the Charlotte Coliseum with an Uptown arena. Blowing up bedrock to lower I-277 around Uptown.

[DMann]

Imagine if you will that I-277 was never built.  There would be no elevated separation of Elizabeth, Chantilly, Myers Park from downtown.  There would be no valley separating Dilworth and South End, Wesley Heights from downtown.  Perhaps a political will would have surfaced in the memory of Edward Dilworth Latta and streetcar lines would have been developed radiating out from downtown on Independance, Providence, South Boulevard, North Tryon, Davidson and perhaps out Wilkenson to the airport and beyond.  UNCC might have been built through SoDa.

What a different place we would have!

[elrodvt]

4 hours ago, DMann said:

Imagine if you will that I-277 was never built.  There would be no elevated separation of Elizabeth, Chantilly, Myers Park from downtown.  There would be no valley separating Dilworth and South End, Wesley Heights from downtown.  Perhaps a political will would have surfaced in the memory of Edward Dilworth Latta and streetcar lines would have been developed radiating out from downtown on Independance, Providence, South Boulevard, North Tryon, Davidson and perhaps out Wilkenson to the airport and beyond.  UNCC might have been built through SoDa.

What a different place we would have!

Put 277 underground instead. Like Boston without the drama. It would be so nice to not be sitting in a month.

[Hushpuppy321]

My hope would be that The Silverline/Airport Line would not be run underground due to costs.  I'd rather see a 'full' buildout of Multiple Lines (Silver / Red (BRT) / Airport) and possibly even Commuter service to further Burbs than Billions spent on Tunneling.

What are the Pro's of Tunneling versus on grade or Elevated portions of the Silverline?

[15895]

44 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

My hope would be that The Silverline/Airport Line would not be run underground due to costs.  I'd rather see a 'full' buildout of Multiple Lines (Silver / Red (BRT) / Airport) and possibly even Commuter service to further Burbs than Billions spent on Tunneling.

What are the Pro's of Tunneling versus on grade or Elevated portions of the Silverline?

I think in the end, CATS will do whatever is most efficient. They wouldn’t build a tunnel for the sake of vanity. If you can call it that. Underground stations for lynx would be very small 

 

IMO, it’ll come down to routing. And I think routing is king. If I were a decision maker, I’m definitely  fighting for the route that would generate the most ridership

i don’t know what all is underground in uptown, but I would like to see silver hit up the metropolitan, tunnel under 277 winding to trade street, then after CTC transfer station, curving off towards the panthers stadium/BBT stadium/Romare then coming back above ground off to the airport. 

 

The gold line will service gateway. I don’t see the importance of silver serving gateway. You don’t take Amtrak to Charlotte and then need to take the silver Matthews or the airport..., 

 

IMO. Blue & Silver (Matthews to the Airport) & Gold is all CLT needs for a long time. A veryyyy long time IMO. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD

[cltbwimob]

29 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

My hope would be that The Silverline/Airport Line would not be run underground due to costs.  I'd rather see a 'full' buildout of Multiple Lines (Silver / Red (BRT) / Airport) and possibly even Commuter service to further Burbs than Billions spent on Tunneling.

What are the Pro's of Tunneling versus on grade or Elevated portions of the Silverline?

Operationally, tunneling would be way better, but I’m with you in that I think the multi-billion dollar tunneling project may come at the expense of full buildout of the system.    To me that additional $1.5 billion would be much better spent on additional lines rather than a tunnel 

[15895]

13 minutes ago, cltbwimob said:

Operationally, tunneling would be way better, but I’m with you in that I think the multi-billion dollar tunneling project may come at the expense of full buildout of the system.    To me that additional $1.5 billion would be much better spent on additional lines rather than a tunnel 

 

Additional lines to where? 

 

 

we could splinter the lines like DC or ATL as density warrants. IE, Ballantyne or SouthPark. But other than spurs to those two, I don’t think CLT needs more rail beyond the blue, gold & silver. 

 

And the redline used to get me excited. Not anymore. I don’t really like commuter lines unless the infrastructure is already there.  Sorry LKN (I lived all over Sam Furr, Gilead & Catawba Ave. so I’m a huge lkn lover) - but I am totally against the red line. It’s so single propose. Would probably have the worst frequencies and probably wouldn’t even operate on weekends... especially if the terminus is gateway. Let’s be real.... traffic on the weekend to uptown — if you happen to wanna go there — isn’t that bad. And people who would take a commuter train to uptown on the weekend with its terrible frequencies are probably the same people who would just drive easily to university for the blue line. 

 

I do think it’s good to be proactive in mass transit, but at some point, there does need to be enough density to warrant it. Having the light rail hit 485 in the north, south, east & west would cover our metro very nice 

Edited November 26, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD