Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[dubone]

They used the generators on the trolley's before the wires will installed on the SouthEnd section, so they can probably pull those back into use.

[atlrvr]

They used the generators on the trolley's before the wires will installed on the SouthEnd section, so they can probably pull those back into use.

I might be wrong, but I would think that using the generators they used in South End wouldn't be allowed as they don't meet pedestrian and vehicle crash requirements. Wasn't much of an issue in South End when a crossing guard got out to close down every intersection, but that's obviously not possible when the trolley running in mixed traffic.

[dubone]

Ok. I didn't think about the crash worthiness of them.

I would really not mind seeing a pilot project again for the trolley on Elizabeth and Trade, with the money spent hopefully being as close to the planned design to reduce throw aways. However, I am not sure that would actually be swallowed politically. But to me, if they can spend a modest sum and use the vehicles already owned on a small stretch of road, and get that part done a decade earlier, there would be some value for people.

[InitialD]

Via Charmeck, an interesting map overlaying the streetcar plans with the historic streetcar map. The shortsightedness of our former leaders is so painful - without a doubt our city's greatest blunder.

[archiham04]

I don't think the crash worthiness issue was due to the generators. As I recall it had more to do with the car itself. the restored cars didn't have appropritate crash ratings. I can't remember if they have any trolleys that are street rated. I think they bought some new (modern) trolley cars recently.

[uptownliving]

On the City Council agenda next Monday is the Design Contract with URS. If approved this will bring the Streetcar Design up to 30% by this time next year.

[New Name]

I don't think the crash worthiness issue was due to the generators. As I recall it had more to do with the car itself. the restored cars didn't have appropritate crash ratings. I can't remember if they have any trolleys that are street rated. I think they bought some new (modern) trolley cars recently.

I can't back this up with a source, but I am pretty sure I remembered reading something that said that the only trolley that is not crash-rated is the historic/refurbished one. The other ones are (if I remember correctly).

[tozmervo]

It was mentioned this morning that the streetcar design funding was passed 7-4 by the council, but then vetoed by McCory ("shouldn't be spending money on this line until construction is in the budget"). There was an implication that the council would override the veto (which requires 7 votes).

[southslider]

It's also interesting that Foxx voted for the design contract while Lassiter did not.

[voyager12]

I do hope it's overturned. McCrory's pragmatic attitude did not prevent him advocating for light rail. Vetoing this project is just his way of trying to burnish his fiscal conservative cred with voters for the next governors race.

[tozmervo]

^ I tend to agree. It feels like a very out-of-character move for him.

IMO, these projects take such a major time investment that delaying design work is not the right move, especially given how much public support there seems to be for the project. You don't want to have the economy swing back into action and then have to start the design work, which could take months to years.

Doing the design work now will help the corridor prepare for eventual construction, both for infrastructure and land-use planning.

[uptownliving]

The mayoral veto was overridden by a 7-3 vote by City Council tonight...so the engineering to bring this up to 30% Design will continue.

[krazeeboi]

So is funding still the holdup here?

[southslider]

^Preliminary engineering is underway to a 30% design level. That was the recent Council action that overrode the former mayor's veto. Final design and construction remain unfunded currently, but some interesting things are happening at the federal level.

[krazeeboi]

Thanks for that info.

[ExCal01]

^Preliminary engineering is underway to a 30% design level. That was the recent Council action that overrode the former mayor's veto. Final design and construction remain unfunded currently, but some interesting things are happening at the federal level.

There was an article in the WSJ last week about the FTA changing the funding rules to make it easier for streetcars to get federal funding. It sounds like there are quite a few cities looking to develop streetcar projects, which means stiff competition for very limited federal money. I was frankly hoping the Obama administration would do a lot more as far as increasing the budget ($180 million won't go very far) as this would appear to be the best kind of stimulus spending. I am worried that Charlotte, which will only be at a 30% design by next month, will not be in the running. I am not sure how colse to "shovel ready: other cities' streetcar projects are (other than Portland and Denver). Can anyone shed some light on what Charlotte's chances are for qualifying for federal funding? How far along in the design process do we need to be? How do we stack up against the competition?

[ExCal01]

There was an article in the WSJ last week about the FTA changing the funding rules to make it easier for streetcars to get federal funding. It sounds like there are quite a few cities looking to develop streetcar projects, which means stiff competition for very limited federal money. I was frankly hoping the Obama administration would do a lot more as far as increasing the budget ($180 million won't go very far) as this would appear to be the best kind of stimulus spending. I am worried that Charlotte, which will only be at a 30% design by next month, will not be in the running. I am not sure how colse to "shovel ready: other cities' streetcar projects are (other than Portland and Denver). Can anyone shed some light on what Charlotte's chances are for qualifying for federal funding? How far along in the design process do we need to be? How do we stack up against the competition?

^ Sorry, $180 million is incorrect. Its actually $280 million according to a December 1 press release on the FTA website. The press release also says "A maximum amount of $25 million per project will be made available from approximately $130 million in unallocated discretionary New Starts/Small Starts Program funds. Eligible projects include streetcars and other urban circulator systems. Priority will be given to projects that connect destinations and foster the redevelopment of communities into walkable, mixed use, high-density environments."

[Urbanity]

Seen two reports (linked below) which seems to indicate a 1.5 mile starter line for the streetcar between CTC and Presbyterian Hospital using existing trolley cars looks likely within three years.

The streetcar construction btw may be an added incentive for the DNC to choose us for the 2012 convention site as it would fit nicely with the current administration's push for mass transit.

http://marynewsom.blogspot.com/2010/01/streetcar-seems-to-have-momentum.html

http://www.wcnc.com/...s-82321962.html

Edited January 22, 2010 by Urbanity

[New Name]

I've got to say, I love the idea of a streetcar. The idea. But honestly, I don't see this project nearly as important as light rail projects...

(so here's my quick list of pros and cons, any else care to contribute?)

Pros:

Streetcar uses a power source other than gasoline

Streetcar is a dedicated route that will not change and can influence development

Streetcar conveys a certain "big city" atmosphere

Streetcar will act to replace (part of) the free Gold Rush - thereby generating some revenue

Cons:

Streetcar obeys the same rules of the road as a bus

Streetcar can not deviate from it's rails, and occasionally will find the road impassable

Streetcar requires an ongoing investment that can not easily be discontinued

[tozmervo]

Cons:

Streetcar obeys the same rules of the road as a bus

True, but there is precedent for streetcars having some control over light signals. That would give it a leg up over regular traffic.

[southslider]

Added con:

This start-up line will likely use faux-historic vehicles.

True, that decision hinted by Council (see Mary Newsom's blog) saves $8 million, instead of buying modern vehicles. And granted, the 1.5-mile starter line can't afford its own VMF (it doesn't even run by studied locations). But either vehicle choice will likely connect to LYNX around the Arena to use the existing LYNX New Bern VMF. So then, compared to modern vehicles, the "Charlotte Trolley" vehicles have a lot less capacity. Hence, the line will operate even more like a "bus on rails" in terms of limited capacity.

[tozmervo]

Yeah, I was wondering about that. I know the idea of using the historic trolleys on the starter branch has been floated around, but the big logistical white elephant is: where would they be stored?

[InitialD]

Yeah, I was wondering about that. I know the idea of using the historic trolleys on the starter branch has been floated around, but the big logistical white elephant is: where would they be stored?

I think the idea is the tracks will turn from Trade onto Caldwell and loop around the arena, where the line will connect with the Blue Line.

[tozmervo]

Ah, I guess that makes sense if they were to go that direction. I reckon the other notable downside is that they would require cantenary wires. Once those are up, it seems unlikely that the city would pursue streetcar tech that doesn't require overhead power.

[New Name]

Ah, I guess that makes sense if they were to go that direction. I reckon the other notable downside is that they would require cantenary wires. Once those are up, it seems unlikely that the city would pursue streetcar tech that doesn't require overhead power.

Charlotte has a history of installing a trolley, only to up the entire system a few years later...