Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[southslider]

I just hope Charlotteans won't judge the potential ridership, and thereby expansion potential of streetcar, by an initial starter segment using small, vintage trolleys. But just as the transition from South End Trolley to South Corridor LYNX saw a big difference in ridership there, Charlotteans should expect the same with Center City Streetcar.

[New Name]

Here is a photo of Tucson's Heritage Trolley running as a Streetcar.

Looks silly to me... it's still better than a bus.

Edited January 22, 2010 by The Escapists

[Urbanity]

I may be in the minority here, but I actually think it is a brilliant move to have the vintage trolleys on the starter streetcar line.

Forgetting the obvious financial start-up costs bonus of such a strategy, I think the tourism draw and certain charm it will add to that part of the city is something that would not happen with a modern streetcar.

For the full ten mile plan, I would argue that it was time to move into real mass transit territory with the modern streetcar, but for a 1.5 mile line that goes from city center through the government district to a walking district, I think the vintage trolley/tourism angle is the way to go.

[ExCal01]

I've got to say, I love the idea of a streetcar. The idea. But honestly, I don't see this project nearly as important as light rail projects...

(so here's my quick list of pros and cons, any else care to contribute?)

Pros:

Streetcar uses a power source other than gasoline

Streetcar is a dedicated route that will not change and can influence development

Streetcar conveys a certain "big city" atmosphere

Streetcar will act to replace (part of) the free Gold Rush - thereby generating some revenue

Cons:

Streetcar obeys the same rules of the road as a bus

Streetcar can not deviate from it's rails, and occasionally will find the road impassable

Streetcar requires an ongoing investment that can not easily be discontinued

Other pros: A modern streetcar has signifcanty (I believe almost double) ridership capacity (and statistically much higher rates of ridership) than the city buses and will improve the flow of traffic as there will be fewer stops (one every 1/4 mile) and there will most likely be traffic light control (according to a guy at CATS I talked to). Right now on Central there are way too many stops. Many of those will disappear.

I am a strong supporter of both light rail and the streetcar. I have to disagree a bit that the streetcar is a lot less important. My thought has always been that true "smart growth" is encouraging people to abandon/minimize the commute and live close in to the city center and encouraging companies to locate there (no use moving people in if they have to drive to the suburbs to work). The street car promotes that goal, imo, by connecting the inner ring of neighborhoods and promoting more development in that area as opposed to service the suburbs (like the proposed commuter line).

I am very concerned though that the first segment to be built will be the 1.5 mile stretch on Trade where there is the least liklihood of significant development occuring. That together with the use of the historicy trolleys will play into the arguments of critics.

[southslider]

And note in that Tuscon picture that streetcars (modern or vintage) don't require as heavy of overhead wires as the LYNX line. If going with trolley vehicles, I think they should go with "trolley wire." Not only is that cheaper, but more aesthetically pleasing. And that way too, we won't inherit as heavy of unnecessary wires, if any future modern vehicles still end up using alternative propulsion when the line expands.

[New Name]

The line would begin at the Charlotte Transportation Center by the Time Warner Cable Arena. It would go south down Trade Street, where it would link with streetcar tracks that have already been built on Elizabeth Avenue, and continue to Presbyterian Hospital.

The line would have a small loop around the arena to tie into the light-rail tracks. That would allow streetcars to be stored at the light-rail maintenance facility south of the New Bern train station.

Someone clarify this... How does it touch the CTC and loop up to the Blue Line? Where will they find enough land to "loop" onto the Blue Line? I would hate to see any part of the Bobcats Plaza torn up, and there is not much room left at the intersection of 5th/Blue Line with the Center City Green...

Unless it has a "stub" at CTC, and a fork at Trade/Caldwell:

Edited January 26, 2010 by The Escapists

[uptownliving]

Yes it will have a "stub" at the CTC and the "loop" around Caldwell and 5th will only be used when the Trolleys begin and end their day...otherwise they will just run up and down Trade St.

The City has retained right of way around 5th St...that is why Center City Green was built so far away from the back of curb...that is actually right of way for future tracks.

[Urbanity]

City will seek $25 million streetcar grant

http://www.charlotte...ry/1204149.html

Edited January 26, 2010 by dubone
MOD EDIT: It is against the rules to post text from a copyrighted source like the Observer. Also please add your own comments rather than just providing a link.

[InitialD]

I'm just curious how the stations are going to work with the trolley. Is it going to be a little stick in the ground like the bus stops? Are there going to be covered shelters like with the historic Southend trolley? Or more like the Sprinter shelters?

Here is the historic trolley in Tampa. They use covered stations. The stations are the only places where it goes to two tracks instead of a single track:

Here between stations they use a single track. Also, cars do not operate in the trolley lane, instead they put the street on a diet.

In Hong Kong the trams do operate in traffic but note the island station/shelter towards the upper-right.

EDIT: Also, are the tracks currently in Elizabeth all the way from Kings to Hawthorne?

Edited January 26, 2010 by InitialD

[Urbanity]

I'm just curious how the stations are going to work with the trolley. Is it going to be a little stick in the ground like the bus stops? Are there going to be covered shelters like with the historic Southend trolley? Or more like the Sprinter shelters?

That's a good question. I hope they build with the stops as pictured on their site.

Edited to add that there is also an animation video on the CATS site as well. Whether or not it will actually be built like that is to be seen.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Urbanity

[InitialD]

That's a good question. I hope they build with the stops as pictured on their site.

Edited to add that there is also an animation video on the CATS site as well. Whether or not it will actually be built like that is to be seen.

I hope this initial segment of streetcar line would go ahead and include the stations like the video shows.

[49er]

I know we're already lucky to even be talking about this being a reality in 3 years, but it would be nice to see the starter segment run from J&W to Presby. It seems like it would capture a lot more riders that way. Oh well, I am still happy at the idea of having a small second transit line around sooner rather than later.

[caterpillar2]

I can accept paying for the streetcar to Elizabeth. It should help the Elizabeth area probably have success with CPCC, etc. I can't for the life of me understand why they would wasted the money on a streetcar going from Beaty's Ford Rd. to Eastland area. These are high crime areas and will not represent the needs of all Charlotteans. It is isolated from uptown from what I understand. Am I missing something concerning the actual route? Additionally, the route from Bettys Ford Rd. to Eastland is estimated to cost $300million. I would much rather see money go for rail service accessable to everyone from a sensible central point like uptown.

Edited January 26, 2010 by caterpillar2

[dubone]

I worry that this will get negative press (as I have already seen from local news teasers), especially when the ridership for this stretch will be low, especially with the smaller cars.

I am still supportive of the idea as long as they can leverage some federal dollars, and as long as what they build is compatible with the long term project. In fact, I feel that the streetcar has the best opportunity to be phased in with many micro-phases every few years. I don't want to see ridiculous things like them tearing out what they build soon to replace it with modern streetcar stuff. They have the designs pretty well set, so they need to use them, but simply run the current replica cars versus modern cars.

I am also for having the connection to the light rail tracks. Clearly the trolley is compatible with that. I would actually love to see them scrapping plans for the maintenance facility for eventual streetcar and instead plan to use the main garage south of South End.

It is absolutely horrifying that the budget for the full streetcar is now equal to the south line. I know a lot of that is purely because of delaying it in the schedule, which causes the need to inflate the budget for future years. But really, it is mind boggling.

Lastly, I know the issues with Elizabeth Avenue had to do in part with all of the other work they did there for streetscape. I would hope that they do for the Trade St stretch what was always planned, which is a rapid installation of the tracks, requiring less closure of the street. If the businesses suffer like they did on Elizabeth Avenue, then I would worry very much about the chances of success for the whole line getting built.

[tozmervo]

I can accept paying for the streetcar to Elizabeth. It should help the Elizabeth area probably have success with CPCC, etc. I can't for the life of me understand why they would wasted the money on a streetcar going from Beaty's Ford Rd. to Eastland area. These are high crime areas and will not represent the needs of all Charlotteans. It is isolated from uptown from what I understand. Am I missing something concerning the actual route? Additionally, the route from Bettys Ford Rd. to Eastland is estimated to cost $300million. I would much rather see money go for rail service accessable to everyone from a sensible central point like uptown.

It is not isolated from Uptown, it will run down Trade street. The path basically follows the routes of CATS's two most heavily traveled bus lines - #7 Beatties Ford and #9 Central Ave. It will also replace the Gold Rush red line. At one end will be the Rosa Parks Transit Center and the other will be the Eastland Transit Center. From those two points and the CTC (and future Gateway) stations in Uptown, several dozen bus routes and neighborhood circulators will connect to the streetcar line.

Finally, is there something about the thousands of people along Beatties Ford and out toward Eastland that do not qualify them as Charlotteans?

[InitialD]

I can accept paying for the streetcar to Elizabeth. It should help the Elizabeth area probably have success with CPCC, etc. I can't for the life of me understand why they would wasted the money on a streetcar going from Beaty's Ford Rd. to Eastland area. These are high crime areas and will not represent the needs of all Charlotteans. It is isolated from uptown from what I understand. Am I missing something concerning the actual route? Additionally, the route from Bettys Ford Rd. to Eastland is estimated to cost $300million. I would much rather see money go for rail service accessable to everyone from a sensible central point like uptown.

I'll give the benefit of the doubt and take "high crime areas" at face value and not as containing racial undertones. I understand not everybody is familiar with Charlotte's older, diverse, and high population urban areas.

The streetcar line, as mentioned by tozmervo, will serve two of the most heavily used CATS routes. The streetcar will connect several important areas of central Charlotte: Johnson C Smith University, Gateway Village, Uptown, Elizabeth/CPCC, Plaza-Midwood, Central Avenue, and the Eastland redevelopment.

The Beatties Ford stretch will connect several school, shopping centers, and urban neighborhoods. It will also provide an important connection between the Johnson C Smith University and Uptown. Historically I-77 has limited connectivity between the University and Uptown. It also will passes by the Westley Heights area which has seen rapid gentrification.

On the eastern side, after Elizabeth/CPCC the streetcar will pass through the heart of Plaza-Midwood - one of the city's most important cultural centers rivaling NoDa and Southend - and will be a boon for arts/culture in the city.

It continues down Central Ave. though some dense population areas and connecting diverse restaurant and retail areas. The line then terminate at what will be the Eastland Mall redevelopment.

In my opinion, neighborhoods that are the most receptive to transit should be the first to get new transit lines. I don't have any figures, but it wouldn't surprised me that the completed streetcar will have a higher ridership than the proposed North commuter line.

[orulz]

I wonder if a first segment of the streetcar line (say, the 1.2 miles from CTC to Hawthorne) could be powered directly from the existing light rail line without any new substations, transformers, rectifiers, etc. That would make it much cheaper and easier to get a starter line running. All they'd have to do is finish laying the tracks and hang some wires.

I guess it depends how much excess capacity was built into the electrical systems for the light rail.

[southslider]

No city has built a full ten miles of modern streetcar at once. This starter alignment is likely the minimum to operate, while the maximum to construct, given financial constraints. Latter extensions are also likely to be built incrementally.

The next phase could be CTC to JCSU. This alignment would eliminate Gold Rush Red Line operations and reach a Vehicle Maintenance Facility site (Brookshire/Beatties Ford). But with significant start-up costs (modern vehicles) and distance (2 miles) to reach the VMF site, this extension also needs the most creative financing. Maybe Uptown and Elizabeth should contribute to TIF or MSD at that time, given the "free money" used for the starter alignment.

A subsequent smaller phase could be Presby to Plaza-Central. This could even be next, as it reaches a VMF alternative site (Barnhardt) closer to the starter line than JCSU. However, the politics of the sales-tax votes (though that source may never be used for capital costs of streetcar, or expect a MTC battle with the Towns) promises service first to the Westside. Plus, a short Plaza-Central extension from Presby neither eliminates the Gold Rush Red Line or #9-Central.

Latter phases beyond JCSU to the west and Plaza-Central to the east will largely depend on the politics of Westside vs. Eastland. Neither opportunity has as much tax capacity as the JCSU-to-Plaza core of the route that is already gentrifying. However, if streetcar is as much about transportation as it is for development, expect healthy debate on making promises for when streetcar will reach these outer, more transit-dependent neighborhoods.

[dubone]

With streetcar it is all about density. It is a form of higher capacity transit that has the benefits of being fixed-route (so investments can be made trusting that the line will be there for at least a generation). This is already the densest area of the city as well as by people who take transit more frequently (higher poverty) which is why the buses are packed.

In 2006, I tallied up the population numbers that the city has for all the neighborhoods adjacent to the streetcar corridor (based on the CWAC neighborhood boundaries). It was 80,000 people. That is a significant share of the people of Charlotte because of the density, which was 3650 people per square mile.

I'm curious to know what the population numbers are lately, but regardless, this is a valuable line because it serves just arguably more people than some of the much longer lines.

[caterpillar2]

I'll give the benefit of the doubt and take "high crime areas" at face value and not as containing racial undertones. I understand not everybody is familiar with Charlotte's older, diverse, and high population urban areas.

Don't need the 'benefit of the doubt". I know the area. I spent several years working aound Rozzells Ferry Rd/Beattys Ford Rd/ JCS. High crime area is high crime area. Call it what you wish. Facts are facts. I am sure that you wouldn't feel safe having your wife or daughter ride the route after dark unless the all cars are staffed with policemen. I see the route as safe from downtown to parts of Central and maybe Plaza, then it's time to get off. I am pretty sure that most people realize that cities have "older, diverse, and high population" urban areas and and are smart enough to be vigil at times. I hope that the system will work and feel somewhat better about the idea since it goes through uptown. I wasn't sure of the route before.

P.S. One shouldn't be so anxious to associate comments of crime with race. Crime can occur anywhere and a comment about crime in an area doesn't neccessarily have "racial undertones" unless one automatically associates crime with race.

I support public transportation. I just feel that the exhuberant amount of money could be used for rail service since buses seem to do a pretty good job where the trolley will go.

Edited January 26, 2010 by caterpillar2

[Norm2]

Don't need the 'benefit of the doubt". I know the area. I spent several years working aound Rozzells Ferry Rd/Beattys Ford Rd/ JCS. High crime area is high crime area. Call it what you wish. Facts are facts. I am sure that you wouldn't feel safe having your wife or daughter ride the route after dark unless the all cars are staffed with policemen. I see the route as safe from downtown to parts of Central and maybe Plaza, then it's time to get off. I am pretty sure that most people realize that cities have "older, diverse, and high population" urban areas and and are smart enough to be vigil at times. I hope that the system will work and feel somewhat better about the idea since it goes through uptown. I wasn't sure of the route before.

P.S. One shouldn't be so anxious to associate comments of crime with race. Crime can occur anywhere and a comment about crime in an area doesn't neccessarily have "racial undertones" unless one automatically associates crime with race.

I support public transportation. I just feel that the exhuberant amount of money could be used for rail service since buses seem to do a pretty good job where the trolley will go.

So you basically feel that transit should not go through high crime areas? High crime or lower income areas is waht needs the transit the most. thats why the city is putting the streetcar on Beatties Ford. It and also Central Avenue have the highest ridership numbers for transit within the city limits, if i remember correctly.

[uptownliving]

Well I have ridden a lot of these routes late at night and have never felt my safety was in danger. You do run into some people that have had too much to drink...but usually all they want to do is talk. Even though you wont have a police officer there are about 6 highly visible cameras on each bus that are recording all the time. The vast majority of people riding the buses just keep to themselves and don't bother anyone.

In any case Beattes Ford (Route 7) and Central Ave (Route 9) are some of the buses with the highest ridership in the system. It just seems to make common sense to put in Rail where there is already an established need for Transit. That is what happened with the Lynx South Line...it basically replaced Bus Route 12 which was overflowing so much that is was pretty common to have a bus blow by you at a stop because it was already full and they could not take on another passenger. Go ride the Route 7 or 9 today and you will see the same thing happening.

I fully support their efforts to make the streetcar happen. It is not everyday that the Feds come to town with the offer of money to build rail projects so I think Charlotte should take advantage of every chance it gets.

[Spartan]

I see the route as safe from downtown to parts of Central and maybe Plaza, then it's time to get off.

So when they extend the LRT to University City, will you not ride it past 36th St?

[Urbanity]

Interesting piece regarding whether the streetcar will use the overhead wires or a self-propelled line.

The short of it is that though it will be cheaper to build the line without the catenary, it looks like the city isn't sold on the alternates enough to take a gamble that they would be ready to go in time.

Costly streetcar wires raise questions

[caterpillar2]

Well I have ridden a lot of these routes late at night and have never felt my safety was in danger. You do run into some people that have had too much to drink...but usually all they want to do is talk. Even though you wont have a police officer there are about 6 highly visible cameras on each bus that are recording all the time. The vast majority of people riding the buses just keep to themselves and don't bother anyone.

In any case Beattes Ford (Route 7) and Central Ave (Route 9) are some of the buses with the highest ridership in the system. It just seems to make common sense to put in Rail where there is already an established need for Transit. That is what happened with the Lynx South Line...it basically replaced Bus Route 12 which was overflowing so much that is was pretty common to have a bus blow by you at a stop because it was already full and they could not take on another passenger. Go ride the Route 7 or 9 today and you will see the same thing happening.

I fully support their efforts to make the streetcar happen. It is not everyday that the Feds come to town with the offer of money to build rail projects so I think Charlotte should take advantage of every chance it gets.

Thanks. Good to know. I still would worry about after dark rides for my daughter of wife. Wouldn't you? What's up with all of the rage against reality? Anyway, thanks for the good posting.