Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[ajfunder]

So they were tearing up track at Trade and Caldwell Today as part of the repair blitz this weekend. I've always been suspect of some of the gold line track work, but there is no reason why steel reinforced, concrete slab track should have to be replaced after only two years of service if it had been constructed properly.

[Scribe]

^^ exactly my thoughts.

[dubone]

Maybe they made some compromises with the low budget of the starter line that now that they now have the means to correct. 

[Niner National]

Streetcar construction has killed Catch On Seafood Market in Plaza Midwood. Their owner said their sales have declined 60% since Hawthorne closed. 

 

Really hate it for them. They outgrew their little space next to the rabbit hole only to see their business destroyed by something outside their control.

[pathb]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article180397921.html?utm_content=buffer49510&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

Apologies for the bad pun, but this seems a bit fishy to me... 

The bridge replacement has been planned for practically as long as I've lived in Charlotte - certainly long before this business relocated to Hawthorne.  Also, travel times from Elizabeth to PM haven't increased by that significant of a factor at any time except the peak hour - the bridge closure is inconvenient for residents on either side of the bridge biking and walking, but it seems unlikely that that was the entire reason this business didn't work out.  Currently, you could drive to the South side of Hawthorne bridge, park (for free), walk the one mile from there to Catch On via Pecan (one mile), and you wouldn't be "waiting 40 minutes for fish" as the owner claims in the article. 

Quote

The area around the store along Central Avenue has grown rapidly in recent years, with more than 1,000 new apartments and more under construction.

“People would say, ‘Hey, those apartments must be helping you big-time,’” said Schussler. But the apartment dwellers tended to be young professionals who would drop in to buy a half-pound of salmon for a weeknight dinner – the big sales tended to come from older customers who drove there.

That seems a little nuts. The business can't survive with thousands of customers wanting to walk in from next door... it relies on the couple of people driving over and buying one car-load of fish?  I wonder if his business strategy wasn't focused more on distribution/large events and might have better success catering to the people he's describing above, who'd like to have a local fish market they can walk into for a weeknight meal. 

Caveat: I know very little about business and nothing about the way this business was actually run.  Just doesn't add up to me that "the streetcar killed Catch On."

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, pathb said:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article180397921.html?utm_content=buffer49510&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

Apologies for the bad pun, but this seems a bit fishy to me... 

The bridge replacement has been planned for practically as long as I've lived in Charlotte - certainly long before this business relocated to Hawthorne.  Also, travel times from Elizabeth to PM haven't increased by that significant of a factor at any time except the peak hour - the bridge closure is inconvenient for residents on either side of the bridge biking and walking, but it seems unlikely that that was the entire reason this business didn't work out.  Currently, you could drive to the South side of Hawthorne bridge, park (for free), walk the one mile from there to Catch On via Pecan (one mile), and you wouldn't be "waiting 40 minutes for fish" as the owner claims in the article. 

That seems a little nuts. The business can't survive with thousands of customers wanting to walk in from next door... it relies on the couple of people driving over and buying one car-load of fish?  I wonder if his business strategy wasn't focused more on distribution/large events and might have better success catering to the people he's describing above, who'd like to have a local fish market they can walk into for a weeknight meal. 

Caveat: I know very little about business and nothing about the way this business was actually run.  Just doesn't add up to me that "the streetcar killed Catch On."

I live and work in Brooklyn along the R train line. About 3 months ago they closed Prospect Ave Subway Station, diverting people to either 9th Street or 25th Street. Theres a deli/grocery/bodega that relies heavily on commuters coming to and from that station. They've laid off a couple staff, and really struggling, thankfully the station will be reopened in December, hopefully the will make it. 

[archiham04]

52 minutes ago, pathb said:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article180397921.html?utm_content=buffer49510&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

Apologies for the bad pun, but this seems a bit fishy to me... 

The bridge replacement has been planned for practically as long as I've lived in Charlotte - certainly long before this business relocated to Hawthorne.  Also, travel times from Elizabeth to PM haven't increased by that significant of a factor at any time except the peak hour - the bridge closure is inconvenient for residents on either side of the bridge biking and walking, but it seems unlikely that that was the entire reason this business didn't work out.  Currently, you could drive to the South side of Hawthorne bridge, park (for free), walk the one mile from there to Catch On via Pecan (one mile), and you wouldn't be "waiting 40 minutes for fish" as the owner claims in the article. 

That seems a little nuts. The business can't survive with thousands of customers wanting to walk in from next door... it relies on the couple of people driving over and buying one car-load of fish?  I wonder if his business strategy wasn't focused more on distribution/large events and might have better success catering to the people he's describing above, who'd like to have a local fish market they can walk into for a weeknight meal. 

Caveat: I know very little about business and nothing about the way this business was actually run.  Just doesn't add up to me that "the streetcar killed Catch On."

I think the key issue here is that he got cut off from a prized Charlotte demographic in Elizabeth, Eastover, and Myers Park.

[GeauxCLT]

Catch On was kicked out of their old location on Pecan because they were so far behind on rent. To claim the streetcar killed the business is bogus. That said, I'm sure it didn't help. Good management would have anticipated the road closure before the relocation. 

[nakers2]

On 8/18/2017 at 2:24 PM, ajfunder said:

So they were tearing up track at Trade and Caldwell Today as part of the repair blitz this weekend. I've always been suspect of some of the gold line track work, but there is no reason why steel reinforced, concrete slab track should have to be replaced after only two years of service if it had been constructed properly.

I'm no engineer, but I have always disliked the tracks in the street (I do like the streetcar in general though) I never understood why they had to be laid in concrete slabs with deep grooves that catch tires, especially on a narrow tired car like mine. In Europe I have seen streetcar tracks literally laid in cobblestones, flush with the ground level. They literally just cut grooves wide enough for the track and then set it there. 

[southslider]

^People can drive on concrete.

 

[SgtCampsalot]

Speaking of streetcar, why is it coming up in the Mayoral debates? Isn't it done and done with now that phase 2 is funded?

[kermit]

Just now, SgtCampsalot said:

Speaking of streetcar, why is it coming up in the Mayoral debates? Isn't it done and done with now that phase 2 is funded?

Yea, its really just a handy political punchingbag to show voters where they stand. Phase 2 is a done deal and Phase 3 has no funding prospects during the next mayoral term (and probably beyond that) and the current federal administration is certainly not going to fund any mixed traffic rail (and perhaps no transit of any kind) .

Phase 3 (if it ever happens) would most likely be included in the transit 'big boom' proposal that had better be on its way (that is what all the recent meetings have been about). But much of the justification for Phase 3 has been rendered obsolete by the Silver Line -- I do think service up to West Charlotte High might be a good (and relatively cheap) improvement to our larger system.

[cltbwimob]

^^^I think the debate is specifically about whether to extend it beyond what is currently being constructed to the full 10 mile length.  

Personally, I hope it doesnt get extended and I hope the city can reappropriate the money to the silver line or the airport line.  Building out the light rail system is far more important to the city's long term health than the streetcar, and with funding being so scarce at the federal and state levels we need all the money we can scrounge up.

[Scribe]

I was at Independence Park over the weekend and looked at the storm water project progress.

I was curious if there are public plans or if anyone here knew if there was a chance they would build a pedestrian underpass below Hawthorne? (to connect the 2 halves of the park without crossing a street)

They were trenching a large path near the traffic light that looked like a good candidate, but it could be a large storm water drain as well...

[southslider]

^Independence Park already has an underpass, just under Charlottetowne, not Hawthorne.

 

[dubone]

It would be great to have, as the park is somewhat divided as it is now, so it would make for a better extension as a greenway style path through the park.   Especially since the next street that connects to Brian Creek Greenway is "Greenway Ave"

[archiham04]

23 hours ago, Scribe said:

I was at Independence Park over the weekend and looked at the storm water project progress.

I was curious if there are public plans or if anyone here knew if there was a chance they would build a pedestrian underpass below Hawthorne? (to connect the 2 halves of the park without crossing a street)

They were trenching a large path near the traffic light that looked like a good candidate, but it could be a large storm water drain as well...

I would like to see Hawthorne built up to look like a bridge with stone retaining walls on either side, with stone that integrates into the overall aethetic of the park.

[Scribe]

20 hours ago, southslider said:

^Independence Park already has an underpass, just under Charlottetowne, not Hawthorne

Obviously! That is why I am asking about a possibility of underpass beneath Hawthorne not a Charlottetowne!

[southslider]

^Not part of GL2

 

[nakers2]

On 10/25/2017 at 9:19 AM, southslider said:

^People can drive on concrete.

 

You ought to have quoted me so I saw this reply. People can drive on cobblestones, or as they call them in Antwerp, Kinderkopjes (childrens heads/skulls) I realize Americans would probably cry over having to drive on centuries old cobblestones, but they do their job in a sense by slowing people down, not to mention having a nice aesthetic. My critique on the concrete slabs and the deep grooves is more a complaint of safety and over-engineering if anything. I just don't see why they couldn't have set the tracks in asphalt, I'm not an engineer but it just seems that if they can set tracks in cobblestones in Europe then why would it be difficult to set them in asphalt, flush with the road surface on trade street?  Look at these pics as examples, flush with the road surface.

 

[southslider]

2 hours ago, nakers2 said:

I just don't see why they couldn't have set the tracks in asphalt, I'm not an engineer but it just seems that if they can set tracks in cobblestones in Europe then why would it be difficult to set them in asphalt, flush with the road surface on trade street?

 

Voters already complain that streetcar is a boondoggle, so I'm pretty sure more costly construction wouldn't be well-received.  Asphalt may be a cheaper way to add cobblestones, but overall public perception of a largely controversial project matters.  And in America (compared to Europe), cost (even its perception) typically trumps aesthetics. 

[Spartan]

On 11/17/2017 at 5:32 AM, southslider said:

Voters already complain that streetcar is a boondoggle, so I'm pretty sure more costly construction wouldn't be well-received.  Asphalt may be a cheaper way to add cobblestones, but overall public perception of a largely controversial project matters.  And in America (compared to Europe), cost (even its perception) typically trumps aesthetics. 

So if asphalt is cheaper, logic would seem to suggest that people would be more receptive to it, no? Plus it would look better.

[Scribe]

15 hours ago, Spartan said:

So if asphalt is cheaper, logic would seem to suggest that people would be more receptive to it, no? Plus it would look better.

No need to get snarky, he is rightfully pointing out the current sentiment.  That is, for the money you do not get "transit" - especially with the replica trolley's. It does not have a reliable trip time - and presently it killed paid bus routes that are now unpaid streetcar rides.

Now, did the Trade/Elizabeth corridor - hugely - benefit from the utility upgrades that it badly needed? Hell yeah!

When the 1st phase project started a CATS official said that the sewer lines and storm drains were almost 100 years old in places along that corridor.

[SgtCampsalot]

5 hours ago, Scribe said:

No need to get snarky, he is rightfully pointing out the current sentiment.  That is, for the money you do not get "transit" - especially with the replica trolley's. It does not have a reliable trip time - and presently it killed paid bus routes that are now unpaid streetcar rides.

Now, did the Trade/Elizabeth corridor - hugely - benefit from the utility upgrades that it badly needed? Hell yeah!

When the 1st phase project started a CATS official said that the sewer lines and storm drains were almost 100 years old in places along that corridor.

This is the unspoken problem of our time. If federal projects could focus more on these un-sexy things cities and towns could take a huge sigh of relief.

[kermit]

16 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

This is the unspoken problem of our time. If federal projects could focus more on these un-sexy things cities and towns could take a huge sigh of relief.

and if cities and utility companies stopped transferring the cost of updating their infrastructure onto transit projects then it would be much cheaper to build.