Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[caterpillar2]

So when they extend the LRT to University City, will you not ride it past 36th St?

If I needed to I would rid beyond. I feel safer since I have a conceiled gun permit. I hope everything works out, but get real, look at the areas. There is a definite need for cops on the lines. I really want all of the public transportation systems to be successful, but we can't be ignorant and disgard the facts of crime and communities. This isn't racist as you probably want to insist. It is survival and the desire to survive. I love everyone, I hate crime and I stay away from possible incidents.

[krazeeboi]

If I needed to I would rid beyond. I feel safer since I have a conceiled gun permit. I hope everything works out, but get real, look at the areas. There is a definite need for cops on the lines. I really want all of the public transportation systems to be successful, but we can't be ignorant and disgard the facts of crime and communities. This isn't racist as you probably want to insist. It is survival and the desire to survive. I love everyone, I hate crime and I stay away from possible incidents.

What's the deal with you not wanting certain areas of the city to not be served by streetcar? Should the Beatties Ford/Eastland bus routes be eliminated as well? If you don't want your wife/daughter riding through those areas, then don't let them. That has absolutely nothing to do with the residents of those areas who rely on transit and need it. If your point was about safety, then you could have just mentioned the need for more policeman along those routes and not question the system being extended to those neighborhoods.

[dubone]

Keeping it from getting personal on both directions (please), I think we can all agree that everyone has the right to chose to avoid areas because of perception of crime and actual crime.

To me, transit infrastructure is built for a generation or two. Obviously you have to build for what an area is today or will become very soon thereafter, but at the same time, things change dramatically in a generation. Also, these types of investments often lead to increased desirability in neighborhoods.

[tozmervo]

Ah, I guess that makes sense if they were to go that direction. I reckon the other notable downside is that they would require cantenary wires. Once those are up, it seems unlikely that the city would pursue streetcar tech that doesn't require overhead power.

Hot damn, someone at the O asked the same question. Basically, the federal money would require construction within 18 months. That would make the use of alternative (non-cantenary) technology unfeasible.

"Cooksey said he was concerned that starting the line now – with overhead wires – would lock the city into building the entire line with a catenary. He said it would be unlikely the city would spend $7 million on a catenary, and then tear it down in a few years in favor of newer technology"

They make the point, though, that the wires could be removed and reused for other projects at a later time. It sounds like they are definitely looking at precedents for the non-cantenary systems, because there is a substantial cost savings.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

The streetcar would make more sense to me if Dilworth were linked in there somehow; perhaps by running down Kenilworth and East. If it were to link Park Rd Shopping Center, Dilworth's core, Met-Midtown, Elizabeth, Downtown, and Plaza-Midwood; it would be awesome and busy.

Routing it on the west side and EastWay is politics.

[Norm2]

I believe that running the street car down Scott Ave and East Blvd is not possible because of the steep grade at that intersection.

[Guest]

I believe that running the street car down Scott Ave and East Blvd is not possible because of the steep grade at that intersection.

That would be incorrect,

If trolleys/streetcars can travel up hills in San Francisco they can anywhere.

So how about Mark Washburns obscenely ignorant sarcastic piece of crap, now I remember why I live in New York City. At no point in this article did I believe a word he was saying. The whole time he refers to the entire line as "trolley"

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/195/story/1206221.html

Furthermore, because of the future success of the 1.5-mile trolleyway, it is to be necessary to build many more miles of trolley track so people can go from behind the tall building to Eastland Mall to buy a coat.

At wholesale.

Because of their blindness, the transit authorities do not want to pay $450 million or so US for this because they desire to build a train to somewhere generous citizens actually want to go. This is a sign of the madness gripping our form of government and measures must be taken at a later date, with your kind beneficence.

He seems to be Missing the point entirely...

[InitialD]

It is only right that transit lines are first run through dense, urban, high population neighborhoods with high transit usage - anything else would just be politics.

Connecting one of Charlotte's major universities to Uptown is important (which is why connecting another major university with the BLE is important as well.) Plus, another important factor is spurring TOD along the line. Dilworth and points south are fortunate that they are pretty well developed already, but there is a great potential for new development and redevelopment along the current streetcar alignment.

[Urbanity]

That would be incorrect,

If trolleys/streetcars can travel up hills in San Francisco they can anywhere.

Isn't that a cable car? If so, that is why it can handle the inclines.

[Mobuchu]

That would be incorrect,

No, actually, that would be Correct. The reason the original streetcar spur was going to turn on Fillmore Ave is because they couldn't do the turn at East blvd because of the sharp gradient change and congested corner.

[Guest]

No, actually, that would be Correct. The reason the original streetcar spur was going to turn on Fillmore Ave is because they couldn't do the turn at East blvd because of the sharp gradient change and congested corner.

<br>Well darn, my bad. I wish I had known that. I really wish the street car had made its way through dilworth, that would have been such a boon for the neighborhood<br>

Edited January 27, 2010 by Guest

[dubone]

The SF photo is a cable car. It has a cable network that it locks onto to get up the hills. It is not just steel wheels on steel tracks.

[southslider]

<br>Well darn, my bad. I wish I had known that. I really wish the street car had made its way through dilworth, that would have been such a boon for the neighborhood<br>

Fillmore between Kenilworth and Scott is Dilworth, and just one block off of East Boulevard. Granted, that is currently a latter phase beyond the first line between Rosa Parks and Eastland, but if Dilworth would tax themselves, maybe such branch extension could be built sooner.

[Guest]

Fillmore between Kenilworth and Scott is Dilworth, and just one block off of East Boulevard. Granted, that is currently a latter phase beyond the first line between Rosa Parks and Eastland, but if Dilworth would tax themselves, maybe such branch extension could be built sooner.

Yea I know where Fillmore is, I didn't realize there is a plan for the streetar to come to Dilworth, where have I been, anyone have a link to this plan so I can see it?

[southslider]

^To see branch extensions off the main Center City Streetcar route, see the map on the front of CATS' Spring 2005 newsletter here:

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/Rapid+Transit+Planning/Center+City/Center+City+Transitions.htm

[Spartan]

The streetcar would make more sense to me if Dilworth were linked in there somehow; perhaps by running down Kenilworth and East. If it were to link Park Rd Shopping Center, Dilworth's core, Met-Midtown, Elizabeth, Downtown, and Plaza-Midwood; it would be awesome and busy.

Routing it on the west side and EastWay is politics.

To that end, why not use more of the old trolley routes around town? Would anyone really oppose seeing a trolley running down the median of The Plaza again? Queens Rd? How about on Pegram St in Belmont? Obviously some streets would be out of the question, but Charlotte has a lot of excessively wide streets where the old trolleys used to run (eg: Dilworth Road)...

I'm using InitialD's image here, but if anyone knows where I can find a copy of the old streetcar map without the new route superimposed, please share (or post it here)

[dubone]

http://gisarcims.co.mecklenburg.nc.us/historicasp/historicmaps/Charlotte_Official_Map_of_Charlotte_Copy_2_1935.jpg

There is the 1935 map. The dashed lines show the streetcar routes.

Then twenty years later, vanished:

http://gisarcims.co.mecklenburg.nc.us/historicasp/historicmaps/Charlotte_Official_Map_of_Charlotte_NC_1954.jpg

[tozmervo]

I swung by the "Streetcar Tech Showcase" yesterday. There were basically three technologies represented - no hydrogen yet. There was the typical all-cantenary system, a partial cantenary, and the ground-contact power system.

With the partial cantenary, which several companies were promoting, batteries on the streetcar charge on overhead wires while at stations. Then they pull away, the pentagraph retracts, and the streetcar travels on to the next station under battery/ultra cap power. It was never clear to me where this system is in use.

There was one Italian company pitching the ground contact power system. They said their first system using the tech is supposed to launch in Naples later this year. I thought it was actually a pretty nifty concept. In an overly-simplistic nutshell, a powerful magnet beneath the streetcar picks up the power line to make contact as it travels along the rail. After it passes, the power line falls back down and no contact is made, so people can't get electrocuted.

In other news, the city is holding a Streetcar Shelter Design Workshop on Feb 18 to... well, design streetcar shelters. There doesn't appear to be a link for it available yet.

[southslider]

Based on the old maps, streetcars never ran on Beatties Ford past Oaklawn or on Central past The Plaza. I find this interesting when, in my opinion, Oaklawn to The Plaza would be the section with the biggest return in urban development along the Center City route.

Instead of continuing north of Oaklawn to Rosa Parks or east of The Plaza to Eastland, I would advocate building spurs to Wesley Heights/Bryant Park and Dilworth/CMC. I think such branch extensions would better support a dense urban core than a single, long route.

As for replacing Beatties Ford and Central bus routes, I think CATS should instead use Sprinter-like bus service for serving the bulk of transportation needs in these corridors, not streetcar. Streetcar is more an urban circulator for shorter trips within the very inner core. Combined with a shorter streetcar route, Sprinter-like bus routes could still overlap streetcar or be re-routed somewhat, such as in Uptown. For example, I'd move #7-Beatties Ford from Trade to 5th/Caldwell between Five Points and CTC (outbound 4th between CTC and J&WU). Likewise, I'd move #9-Central to 7th/Caldwell between CPCC and CTC.

You could still eliminate the Red Line of the Gold Rush, especially since Oaklawn-to-Plaza/Central and Bryant Park-to-Dilworth/CMC streetcars could operate with overlapping service from Gateway Village to CPCC on Trade Street. To serve CPCC, however, the Dilworth extension should branch off Trade at Kings or Charlottetowne, instead of McDowell.

Edited February 1, 2010 by southslider

[tozmervo]

A comment in another thread got me thinking - are there plans to grade separate the RR crossing on Central, ever? I don't guess I ever realized that was one of the reasons the streetcar route goes up Hawthorne further and then turns back.

[dubone]

No plans to do it. In fact, yes, the fact that Hawthorne already has the grade separated is the reason the streetcar route continues up Hawthorne past Central and cuts back down on Clement. Considering it is $100m to lower this same rail line near the ADM Plant, I'm guessing this crossing will not get separated. It does baffle me, though, that they never did it in the olden days, seeing as they did separate Hawthorne.

[archiham04]

No plans to do it. In fact, yes, the fact that Hawthorne already has the grade separated is the reason the streetcar route continues up Hawthorne past Central and cuts back down on Clement. Considering it is $100m to lower this same rail line near the ADM Plant, I'm guessing this crossing will not get separated. It does baffle me, though, that they never did it in the olden days, seeing as they did separate Hawthorne.

Actually, if you look at the 1934 map, they did not separate Hawthorne(I never realized this until you mentioned it). It was a streetcar that dipped under the train tracks necessitating the underpass. Hawthorne must have been built in the streetcar row that was abandoned see 1954 map.

This also kind of explains why it floods so badly in this area. It was probably never engineered as a road, or intended to be a road.

[dubone]

I had noticed that the old streetcar did cross the tracks on Central in the 30s, but I failed to notice that Hawthorne didn't extend beyond the tracks then. I wonder if the creek in the area also necessitated the higher tracks, which turned into the underpass for the streetcar or something.

It is pretty incredible how many turns the streetcar used to make and how much coverage the network had.

[southslider]

^I had heard the old streetcars stopped either side of the Seaboard Railroad on Central as two separate lines, requiring patrons to walk the gap across the tracks.

[New Name]

From Mary Newsom's blog:

What should the stops look like for the city's proposed streetcar project? You can weigh in next Thursday, Feb. 18, 6-8 p.m., at the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Government Center in Room 267.

How about this idea:

Each stop could have a small kiosk that could be leased. Nothing bigger than a newsstand. The design could be such that the walls of the kiosk, and the overhead covering would function for someone who is waiting for the streetcar, and/or looking browsing at the kiosk. The kiosk could have roll-up doors for when it is closed, but the "shopping area" would still act as the pedestrian refuge and marker for the streetcar.

Think about it, this would give us:

-Streetlevel retail opportunity

-Longterm, or short term leasing to incubate business

-Unique shopping opportunities for unique items

-Functional and productive stations that may recoup their construction costs through leases

-Great public and community spaces

-Coordination could make the kiosks a destination for tourists on the streetcar (a craft weekend at the kiosks - hop on and off the streetcar on a "crawl")