Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[dubone]

The fact that the beams did not come back within spec is a very frustrating thing for all involved, especially in a world where software can make things so precise, but also easy to make an error that is amplified with made real.  

I have written it so many times in the last 115 pages, but I feel like venting again.   I was physically present at the public meetings where they claimed the pre-existing bridge could handle the loads, and therefore the best route, even though it still left them needing to resolve the CSX crossing, which they liked their Barnhardt plan to solve for.   

I am still extremely frustrated that the *strategy* of crossing this bridge with the streetcar caused the whole bridge to be rebuilt.  Had the consultants not decided the existing bridge was strong enough and could have simply planned a route for the streetcar only that had much different streetcar-only costs.   It is a massive cost for a project that could have been swapped for significantly more mileage and stops.  

I used to push for a route that followed Pecan, because raising Pecan to cross the CSX would take advantage of the topography where the bridge span itself would be quite short then crossing *under* Independence would allow the weight to be on the ground.   It also 30% shorter route (1 mi versus 1.35 mi) from 5th@Hawthorne to Pecan@Central.    

But there is also now the Silver line passing by that ought could be co-located.   

It is obviously water under the, um, bridge.  But in retrospect it was a very expensive strategic error that I hope CATS has learned from.  Now they will have spent a huge part of the budget on a bridge that will make the community so angry that they will apply that resentment to the final project.    

 

 

[videtur quam contuor]

six years

 

On May 10, 1869, at Promontory Summit, Utah, a golden spike was hammered into the final tie. The transcontinental railroad was built in six years almost entirely by hand. Workers drove spikes into mountains, filled the holes with black powder, and blasted through the rock inch by inch.

Edited July 30, 2019 by tarhoosier

[nakers2]

26 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

six years

 

On May 10, 1869, at Promontory Summit, Utah, a golden spike was hammered into the final tie. The transcontinental railroad was built in six years almost entirely by hand. Workers drove spikes into mountains, filled the holes with black powder, and blasted through the rock inch by inch.

Definitely helps that they had Chinese labor that they were paying pennies on the dollar, and that there was virtually no safety equipment/electronics, etc. Basting through mountains, and tearing across uninhabited land with no environmental considerations is much easier than building through one of the most dense parts of the city. 

[videtur quam contuor]

3.5 years to build a bridge where there was already a bridge is not acceptable. This is with contemporary equipment, logistics, materials and planning. 

[southslider]

Hopefully, the delay was to redesign the bridge for Silver Line and HOV Phase 2.  Otherwise,  how many times will Charlotte accept rebuilding again and again?

[dubone]

On 7/30/2019 at 5:48 PM, southslider said:

Hopefully, the delay was to redesign the bridge for Silver Line and HOV Phase 2.  Otherwise,  how many times will Charlotte accept rebuilding again and again?

I didn't even THINK about that!?    Do you think they have factored the Silver line into the current design?  

Interesting view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2186652,-80.8191348,3a,75y,259.66h,64.92t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipOKLXh6mXCLRQ0n53xafj8Tz2YFpf2Dbp3N_nV8!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOKLXh6mXCLRQ0n53xafj8Tz2YFpf2Dbp3N_nV8%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya24.640001-ro-0-fo100!7i6912!8i3456

 

 

 

[kermit]

On 7/30/2019 at 5:48 PM, southslider said:

Hopefully, the delay was to redesign the bridge for Silver Line and HOV Phase 2.  Otherwise,  how many times will Charlotte accept rebuilding again and again?

Last time I drove down Independence all of the original girders (beams?) were still up with the exception of two(?) on the  SE (Bay street) side. I would think all the steel on the North side of the bridge would need to come out to accommodate the Silver Line (but just guessing here).

Don’t get your hopes up about a Silver Line redesign on the bridge, the current fudge up is being paid for by the contractor (it was a design-build contract). If the city suddenly decided they wanted a bunch of changes its gonna be on our dime.

[gman430]

[pathb]

First Siemens streetcar vehicle has arrived...

[JacksonH]

On 8/3/2019 at 7:18 PM, gman430 said:

 

It looks like tracks have been laid all the way to Pine St.  Is anything happening yet between Pine St. and Tryon St.?  I'm far away from Charlotte so I don't have the advantage of seeing for myself, so I really appreciate the pictures and info.

 

[tozmervo]

No tracks yet, but a lot of work happening at the square.

On the flip side, tons of track at Johnson C Smith!

[JacksonH]

55 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

No tracks yet, but a lot of work happening at the square.

On the flip side, tons of track at Johnson C Smith!

 

Thanks!  My nephew will be working at the Carillon Building starting in October.  I guess I'm living vicariously through him and just wondering what his view will be going to the office every day.  I suppose between Gold Line construction in front, courthouse construction on one side, and the Grand Bohemian on the other side, there's going to be a lot of noise and activity.  It doesn't sound like it will be very conducive to his work!

 

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by JacksonH

[easzman]

Do they intend to charge riders using the new streetcar? I hope not given how this project has been so disruptive to everyone who uses Trade Street for many months. 

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, easzman said:

Do they intend to charge riders using the new streetcar? I hope not given how this project has been so disruptive to everyone who uses Trade Street for many months. 

Yes. Unless something has changed, the plan is to charge the same fare as local buses. The city funded construction, but CATS has to fund operations. 

[easzman]

53 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

Yes. Unless something has changed, the plan is to charge the same fare as local buses. The city funded construction, but CATS has to fund operations. 

Really? Not optimistic the ridership for the streetcar will be very good if fares are charged. Obviously I'm not a fan of this project as the funds could have been allocated to projects to allow for safer biking  and use of scooters around uptown by adding dedicated lanes on Trade and Tryon inside the 277 loop.  

[King of the Queen City]

2 hours ago, easzman said:

Not optimistic the ridership for the streetcar will be very good if fares are charged.

I expect most streetcar riders to be the same as light rail riders. It will be easy to hop of the light rail at the CTC (and eventually Gateway) and go where you want on Trade without having to pay anything extra.  I took the Atlanta Streetcar once between the MLK Historic Site and Centennial Olympic Park and couldn’t use my MARTA card but had to pay an extra dollar in cash to ride.

[lit]

10 hours ago, easzman said:

Really? Not optimistic the ridership for the streetcar will be very good if fares are charged. Obviously I'm not a fan of this project as the funds could have been allocated to projects to allow for safer biking  and use of scooters around uptown by adding dedicated lanes on Trade and Tryon inside the 277 loop.  

My biggest concern about them charging fares for the streetcar is that nobody will use it for short trips. To go a couple of blocks, it will just make more sense to walk, bike, or scoot. 

 

Another concern i have is the amount of scooter accidents we’ll see when there are two sets of rails up/down Trade Street. They’re banned on the sidewalk between Church and College (nobody seems to know/care) and given their tiny wheel size and experience level (or lack thereof) of average riders, it seems like a recipe for disaster. I wouldn’t be surprised to see bicycle riders going over the bars. ARE THERE ANY PLANS TO ADD BIKE LANES TO TRADE ST?

[southslider]

21 minutes ago, lit said:

ARE THERE ANY PLANS TO ADD BIKE LANES TO TRADE ST?

Yes, but only west of 77, or outside of Uptown 

8 hours ago, King of the Queen City said:

I expect most streetcar riders to be the same as light rail riders. It will be easy to hop of the light rail at the CTC (and eventually Gateway) and go where you want on Trade without having to pay anything extra.

And for the same reason, also bus riders

[dubone]

On 8/9/2019 at 2:08 AM, lit said:

Another concern i have is the amount of scooter accidents we’ll see when there are two sets of rails up/down Trade Street. They’re banned on the sidewalk between Church and College (nobody seems to know/care) and given their tiny wheel size and experience level (or lack thereof) of average riders, it seems like a recipe for disaster. I wouldn’t be surprised to see bicycle riders going over the bars. ARE THERE ANY PLANS TO ADD BIKE LANES TO TRADE ST?

The 6th Street cycle track is supposed to be the preferred route for bikes and scooters.     Obviously scooter risks abound and I hope not, but at any minute they could disappear like the random bike shares, although they did prove to be good bike charities!  "Ofo - the bike of choice for incomes $1K and below!"

 

[Desert Power]

On 8/9/2019 at 2:08 AM, lit said:

 ARE THERE ANY PLANS TO ADD BIKE LANES TO TRADE ST?

Still think it is a huge mistake how they decided to do a bike line on a major road like 6th instead of Trade.

[15895]

I used to be pro-streetcar. Not sure anymore. Especially after Atlanta. I would be pro streetcar if they operated in a dedicated lane and traffic lights synced to them and there weren't so many stops. I know the point of it is to have frequent stops but I don't know. I'm not sure about this form of transportation.

[dubone]

3 hours ago, Desert Power said:

Still think it is a huge mistake how they decided to do a bike line on a major road like 6th instead of Trade.

They studied it.  First of all, streets like 6th had far too many lanes and it becomes like a race track for autos.  I have nearly DIED on 6th street at least a dozen times from cars going wild as fast as they breaking every rule in the book.  I know tighter lanes and a cycle track is not going to solve that completely, but any attempt to improve traffic calming, will be good.   

Trade was the initial spot assessed for bikes, but there are a lot more risks of unsafe interactions with the tracks, and issues.  That is, professionals studied it first and rejected it for specific reasons.   6th was selected due to its need for a road diet anyway, and easier connections to Rail Trail, LSCG, ICG, 4th Ward Park, and other bike lanes in and out of uptown. The also get the chance to factor it into to active projects like the Library rebuild, Discovery Place rebuild, Uptown Police Precinct, etc.

 

Streetcar seems like it needs to remain a short distance option like our current phases.   I heavily favor assigning the lane to transit-only to reduce the blockages.  But if it goes out Central, as much as it feels like a good plan due to the relative density of those neighborhoods, it still feels like a major miss if we don't plan it with a Central Av widening.       

 

 

[DEnd]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I used to be pro-streetcar. Not sure anymore. Especially after Atlanta. I would be pro streetcar if they operated in a dedicated lane and traffic lights synced to them and there weren't so many stops. I know the point of it is to have frequent stops but I don't know. I'm not sure about this form of transportation.

Within Uptown I have absolutely no problem with them sharing lanes.  Yes it will lead to the streetcars not having to the minute service reliability, but I think that is acceptable.  Phase three really needs to be dedicated right of way though to keep delays in check.  

I'm also not a fan of the every 1/4 mile stop spacing, even on The Blue Line in uptown.  With The Blue Line I understand the stop spacing in uptown and the two extra stops really aren't going to cause an issue, but the 7th and 3rd street stations really aren't "needed."  Though if I were all-powerful and got rid of 3rd st station I'd also get rid of Stonewall and put one at the convention center.  Street cars are good at intraneighborhood mobility and mobility between nearby neighborhoods (which to be fair buses are really good at). That's why it has such frequent stops.  I tend to dismiss intraneighborhood mobility as not appropriate for rail. Even at 1/2 mile stop spacing you're not making anything within the neighborhoods "unreachable" if someone takes rail, and out in the suburbs spacing at 3/4 of a mile to 1 mile is fairly appropriate.  

[Desert Power]

19 hours ago, dubone said:

They studied it.  First of all, streets like 6th had far too many lanes and it becomes like a race track for autos.  I have nearly DIED on 6th street at least a dozen times from cars going wild as fast as they breaking every rule in the book.  I know tighter lanes and a cycle track is not going to solve that completely, but any attempt to improve traffic calming, will be good.   

Trade was the initial spot assessed for bikes, but there are a lot more risks of unsafe interactions with the tracks, and issues.  That is, professionals studied it first and rejected it for specific reasons.   6th was selected due to its need for a road diet anyway, and easier connections to Rail Trail, LSCG, ICG, 4th Ward Park, and other bike lanes in and out of uptown. The also get the chance to factor it into to active projects like the Library rebuild, Discovery Place rebuild, Uptown Police Precinct, etc.

 

 

 

Others studying it does not make me agree. Closing off Trade to private cars makes a lot more sense than turning 6th into a  AM rush hour parking lot.    Where is the diet for 3rd, 4th, and 5th?  They are the same streets.  Meanwhile Trade is already use much much less for commuting.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Desert Power

[Scribe]

21 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I would be pro streetcar if they operated in a dedicated lane and traffic lights synced to them and there weren't so many stops.

This right here... The streetcar needs to be better then taking a car down the same route, not worse.