Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[sammyjoey]

Streetcars for St. Louis, Cincinatti, Dallas, Ft. Worth and Charlotte!

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we're looking at a huge paradigm shift when it comes to how American's will think about transportation. These are not vanity projects - these are seeds.

+1

This isn't just great news for Charlotte (because we got a piece of the pie) but, IMO, it's great news for America (because there was a Public Transportation pie to be had in the first place)

Edited July 8, 2010 by sammyjoey

[kermit]

Here's the list of the complete funding and which city got funding.

http://www.fta.dot.g...ents_11820.html

According to the FTA, our starter line will use the 3 replicas trolleys for the time being?

A glance at the list shows that Charlotte is getting significantly less streetcar mileage (1.5 miles) for its $25 million than St. Louis (2 miles), Ft Worth (2.5 miles) or Cincinnati (6 miles). Is this due to a significantly lower local match? The difference gets magnifed when you account for our existing vehicles and 20% of the track already in place?

I am not trying to sound libertarian (I very much want this project to succeed), just doing some mental book keeping -- lets use the money to run this thing to Gateway.

EDIT: \/ Two way vs. one way. That makes perfect sense. Thanks!

Edited July 10, 2010 by kermit

[New Name]

If I read it correctly, Charlotte is the only system that will run bi-directional. All other systems will be one-way loops (one track needed - not two).

[sharkdawg]

Who spearheaded the application process? Was it city based, or was the state involved? I wonder what Larry Kissel, Sue Myrick, Mel Watt, Richard Burr, and Kay Hagan think of this. Did they have a hand in this process?

[Urbanity]

If I read it correctly, Charlotte is the only system that will run bi-directional. All other systems will be one-way loops (one track needed - not two).

I didn't catch that at all am glad you brought that up. To me it means a lot more as a real transit option to have bi-directional tracks. Guess it signals (to me) a commitment to complete the whole originally planned route.

[dubone]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/07/12/1557730/streetcar-questions-override-answers.html

I didn't realize they were considering making this first phase fare-free. I really hope they do as I really think they need to keep the ridership as high as possible to win the support of the community and government entities for expansion. Hopefully the hospital will be willing to contribute slightly to cover the budget, as it will be a big help to their customers and employees for getting to the Lynx line and avoid parking. That said, it makes perfect sense for them to charge once it is extended on either end.

My other comment is I don't know why they only say generically that people prefer rail, and therefore it will help the real estate market. It is really uncomfortable to ride those trolley busses. Your body is jerked all over the place. Rail is a smooth ride and has its path cleared. Then add the permanence, simplicity and gravitas of real station-like stops and a easily known route. Rail lines make their way on to all forms of maps that people see in their lives and becomes part of their consciousness. Bus routes rarely make it past the bus system map and into the consciousness of the general population.

[New Name]

What was the big-picture for fare collection on the whole Streetcar line? Was is fare-zone? I hope so. Considering the nature of Charlotte's neighborhoods, I think many more people will use the streetcar for intra-neighborhood transit, than for intra-city transit. Ridership would do better to offer prorated (fare-zone) fares for those who rarely would go from one end of the line to the other. Of course, fare-zones can be confusing, especially for populations who are confused by the idea, but with the success of LYNX, I think Charlotte will be able to understand more complex transit systems.

I see so many families who come to Uptown just to ride the train still. I thought the novelty would wear off, but it really seems like people still come to just ride around and get the experience. It's not often that I NEED the Lynx to get around, but when I do - I get excited to ride. I can't really justify taking a joy-trip, but when when I find a good excuse for it - I'm onboard. I feel the streetcar will do the same thing.

[Spartan]

I've never heard of fare zones being discussed except on this site. IMO Charlotte needs to keep transit as simple as possible. When we get a system as robust as DC, then maybe we start thinking about zones.

[go_vertical]

I see so many families who come to Uptown just to ride the train still. I thought the novelty would wear off, but it really seems like people still come to just ride around and get the experience. It's not often that I NEED the Lynx to get around, but when I do - I get excited to ride. I can't really justify taking a joy-trip, but when when I find a good excuse for it - I'm onboard. I feel the streetcar will do the same thing.

Well, I know the layout of Charlotte very well and can navigate perfectly fine. Have no problem taking shortcuts through neighborhoods either, but every time I visit I make time to hop onto the train and relax. It's nice to actually enjoy traversing through the urban environment instead of avoiding the car that is braking heavily in front of you.

Typically I'll get off in South End and stroll around a bit, find a local joint for lunch, and check out a couple of shops. I'll eventually end up in uptown, stroll a little more, and head back towards the car an hour or two later. Aside from the lunch I'll sometimes end up shopping in one or two of the shops and picking up bottled water or something to quench the thirst while I'm pounding the pavement. I love it man and even after I move back in August I'm quite sure I'll keep doing it every so often. After all, gotta check out all the new museums.

[New Name]

Since I miss the days of big fictional ideas on Urban Planet, I present to you my totally-made-up Zone-Based-Fare Streetcar map. Enjoy.

Edited July 12, 2010 by The Escapists

[Spartan]

I like your idea but I think anything between Presby and JCSU should be the "free zone" and at the very least, Gateway Village should be in it.

[kermit]

I actually discovered something nice from reading the cranks comments on the Observer articles about the streetcar. While nearly all the comments bash the cost effectiveness / speed / routing of the streetcar about a quarter of the comments say they would rather see the money spent on the blue line (and occasionally mention the north line as well). Its really refreshing to see some genuine support for rail transit in a venue that was previously so hostile to the mode.

In terms of outside perception I thought this quote from a DC blogger was interesting: http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/kbenfield/winners_and_losers_in_latest_r.html

Charlotte, Dallas and Chicago all have proven records in transit investment in recent years and, in a sense, are being rewarded for their commitment to public transportation.

To see the queen city mentioned in the same breath as Dallas and Chicago in this context surprised me (since I actually read many of those horrible Observer comments). Charlotte's strong outside reputation in transit development (in contrast to Raleigh's absence of transit development) is also discussed in this UP thread in the Triangle board:

Edited July 15, 2010 by kermit

[New Name]

^I had read over that Raleigh thread too - and as much as I hate to punish myself by reading any of the Observer comments, sometimes at work I can' help myself. It leads me to wonder - what's better: to deal with a vocally hostile conservative public hellbent on voicing discontent for any money spent, or not getting the money at all?

I'm totally perplexed by the fact that people think what is happening is a socialist agenda from the Obama administration. Have they no frame of reference from the WPA, HOLC or FHA programs of the Great Depression?

Edited July 14, 2010 by The Escapists

[HopHead]

I like your idea too The Escapists. Though, I do agree with Spartan in that JCSU and Presby should be part of that free zone as well. It's a shame that the line couldn't be a little closer to NC Music Factory. I think that would solve some of the bottle neck issues there on weekends or when there's a concert at the amphitheater or Fillmore.

[Spartan]

^I had read over that Raleigh thread too - and as much as I hate to punish myself by reading any of the Observer comments, sometimes at work I can' help myself. It leads me to wonder - what's better: to deal with a vocally hostile conservative public hellbent on voicing discontent for any money spent, or not getting the money at all?

I'm totally perplexed by the fact that people think what is happening is a socialist agenda from the Obama administration. Have they no frame of reference from the WPA, HOLC or FHA programs of the Great Depression?

The New Deal programs are part of the socialist agenda too. Don't you listen to Glenn Beck?

I make it a point not to read those posts unless its for entertainment. Based on my experience, the articles themselves sometimes leave out a lot of facts that would change the nature of the article and make it less controversial. Thus, the people who rant there are ranting about something without all the facts (granted that they would rant either way).

[southslider]

Let's see. A mile and a half of streetcar for $37 million. Meanwhile, a mile and a half of Independence widened for $172 million. Granted, there are about 70,000 vehicles on Independence at Sharon Amity. And less than 5,000 daily riders likely on the initial streetcar segment. Yet somehow I think it's a safe bet that the $37 million on East Trade / Elizabeth will produce a lot more economic development and gains in tax base than the $172 million on Independence.

[tozmervo]

Let's see. A mile and a half of streetcar for $37 million. Meanwhile, a mile and a half of Independence widened for $172 million. Granted, there are about 70,000 vehicles on Independence at Sharon Amity. And less than 5,000 daily riders likely on the initial streetcar segment. Yet somehow I think it's a safe bet that the $37 million on East Trade / Elizabeth will produce a lot more economic development and gains in tax base than the $172 million on Independence.

I don't want to wonder too far off-topic, but one could also argue that investing in the Independence separation will do more to encourage growth outside of the city. Lord knows it's not doing anything for the adjacent neighborhoods.

[southslider]

^I really don't want to discuss Independence on this thread either. My point was how silly it is to call the streetcar project taxpayer waste.

A comparable distance of highway will cost five times as much as streetcar. Since the completed expressway sections around Eastway have depreciated by a third or more in the last two decades, it's a safe bet the next section will have similar impacts. Conversely, streetcar is likely to help properties greatly appreciate, and for only a fifth of the project cost.

[dubone]

Government consumption is waste, government investment is almost never waste. Then, add the fact that NC is a donor state to the federal government, especially in transportation. Soo... the fact that we won 1/5 of an investment pool from the federal government would mean that the project had merit over many other projects in the country. Meanwhile that money would be spent somewhere, so it is better to be spent here.

It is great to be in the position of arguing merits of transit AFTER it is funded and going to happen.

It would be nice if we could leverage other funds like state funds to make the first segment. But I can understand why they aren't yet, since the CSX crossing is still a question to get to Midwood and since going under the Lynx line and crossing Trade and Tryon is still waiting for wireless options. Still, it would be nice if they ended at the Central Ave station just before the CSX crossing to make it a very close walk and serve that neighborhood.

[Urbanity]

Government consumption is waste, government investment is almost never waste. Then, add the fact that NC is a donor state to the federal government, especially in transportation. Soo... the fact that we won 1/5 of an investment pool from the federal government would mean that the project had merit over many other projects in the country. Meanwhile that money would be spent somewhere, so it is better to be spent here.

It is great to be in the position of arguing merits of transit AFTER it is funded and going to happen.

Absolutely agree with this.

To me it would have been wonderful if the initial starter line ran from JCSU to CPCC for multiple reasons, not the least of which was connecting three main educational institutions and bringing the westside into the uptown fold better; however, I think the next round of funding IF our aim is to bring it to JCSU will be better off in the application weight for the very same reason.

[New Name]

Reading more and more about the "chosen" cities for Streetcar grants.

Fort Worth Wins Grant for Streetcar, But Whether It’s Ready Is Another Question - in which Ft. Worth is worried about not having enough of a plan to actually use the grant money (sound familiar Observer commenters?) and looks to Cincinatti and Charlotte for a more fleshed-out transit plan.

Cincinnati's Riverfront Transit Center Attracts Criticism - in which Cincinatti shows concern over an already under-utilized underground bus transit center, and the NCAAP is vocally lobbying to ignore new projects in favor of upgrading and funding such under-utilized ones as the bus system (sound familiar AGAIN?).

Fact is, the cities who didn't get grant money are unhappy - and it seems some of the constitutes of the cities who DID get picked are just as unhappy (for other reasons). So this is not really about Charlotte, this is about the USA right now.

Edited July 15, 2010 by The Escapists

[Spartan]

^Thanks for that. It really helps to keep things in perspective. Charlotte seems to be a relatively good situation in comparison to these other cities.

[New Name]

Not sure if the date has been said yet, but - July 26th is when the City of Charlotte will need to officially accept the Grant for the Streetcar Project. All indications are that the City will accept the grant. CATS will operate the Streetcar for the City.

[Spartan]

^More specifically City Council will accept the grant. I'm betting it's not going to be unanimous but it will pass.

[krazeeboi]

A good editorial in the O describing why the streetcar line is a good investment: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/07/18/1568997/streetcar-is-sound-strategy-not.html