Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[NOLA2CLT]

9 minutes ago, sakami said:

I saw 10 people from Hiatt & Mason Ironworkers working on the Hawthorne bridge today. They were all clipped in like they were waiting for some item to arrive. 

Here is the latest from the city (and by latest it was from Feb 23rd)

1. Hawthorne Lane Bridge

·         WARNING – The bridge is out.  The deck has not been replaced.  See schedule of upcoming work below: 

o   February

§  Backfill at End Bents.

§  Stay In Place Forms Installation.

o   March

§  Deck Rebar Installation.

§  Pour Deck.

§  Pour Parapet Walls.

[JacksonH]

When I first learned that Phase II of the Gold Line extension, on the east end, would terminate on Hawthorne Lane and Sunnyside Avenue, I thought it was a bad thing.  I thought it should at least continue a couple blocks up Central Avenue.  Then I got to thinking that, from a development perspective, it could be a positive as, in the near term, it would encourage more development closer to that last station and on those blocks between Belmont and Plaza-Midwood where development is still somewhat sparse.  It could help strengthen the overall Center City area and make it more cohesive.  That said, when Phase II opens, I think there needs to be a large sign at the end of the block on Hawthorne Avenue, at the intersection with Central Avenue, to orient people getting off the train about where they are and which direction they need to go, and to make them feel they are close to those destinations.  Obviously, the sign needs to be much more professional than this image.  This is only to give you an idea.  I welcome a better mock-up!

[kermit]

Some casual analysis of modern streetcar system performance in the US. As mentioned before, Phase 1 did relatively well on a rider per mile and cost per mile basis. Its not an awful route. None of these systems perform as well as LRT, but some appear to be competitive on a cost-adjusted basis.

 

[Scribe]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

Some casual analysis of modern streetcar system performance in the US.

Let us un-torture this data...

Where do we begin:

1. RAIL Magazine uses $26.3 million for the construction of Phase 1
   • CATS says it cost  $36.99 million
   • In July 2010, the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) awarded the City of Charlotte $24.99 million from the Urban Circulator Grant to construct the first operational segment of the project. The remaining $12 million came from City funds including a Pay-As-You-Go and debt service.
   • https://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/gold-line/Pages/phase-one.aspx
2. That makes all their numbers suspect...
   • we are more expensive than Dallas per mile
   • we are more expensive than Kansas City per rider
3. It gets more fun when you take the cost of Phase 1 + 2 together $36.99 mill + $150 mill = $186.99 million for 4 miles of streetcar
   • $46.75 million per mile
   • that will make as 12th on the list between KC and Tucson
4. Lastly, funny to use any ridership numbers for Charlotte as the streetcar has now been fully suspended for almost 9 months, but they needed to tell a story.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Scribe

[NYtoCLT]

I would occasionally ride the streetcar before it got shut down, but pretty rarely because of how unreliable it was, even though the 2 ends more or less were my home and work.  I find the ridership numbers suspect since there was rarely anyone on those streetcars.  That being despite the fact that it was totally cost free (which it won't be when it reopens).  The line is more useful now since it actually extends to some areas where people live, but even so, the odds of this being successful are low.  The real question is how to mitigate against it being a totally catastrophic failure.  

In order for it to have any chance of being successful:

(1) The city needs to make sure it runs frequently enough where it is actually reliable.

(2) It is synced with traffic lights where it can go through to decrease wait times.

(3) Development is encouraged to be relatively dense around the ends (Hopefully the pool suppl on Hawthorne and Central gets built up soon and the area around French St. sees more density pop up).

 

[Scribe]

22 minutes ago, NYtoCLT said:

(1) The city needs to make sure it runs frequently enough where it is actually reliable.

(2) It is synced with traffic lights where it can go through to decrease wait times.

(3) Development is encouraged to be relatively dense around the ends (Hopefully the pool suppl on Hawthorne and Central gets built up soon and the area around French St. sees more density pop up).

I would say the one thing that will make our streetcar useful (in addition to your points above) is to lock down  the lanes to car traffic where there are multiple lanes lock one lane, otherwise just lock it down completely like San Fran's market street is... https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/market-street-san-francisco-car-free-now/index.html

 

At least within the I-277/I-77 loop?!  (it is 1.5 miles from McDowell St to I-77, surely we can do that? 1 mile from McDovell to Graham St.)

 

If you have not seen people's parking skills block the trolley for 30-45 minutes in Elizabeth, that is a sight to behold.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Scribe

[tozmervo]

I've always felt like an outlier believing the streetcar will do fine. Phase I managed to post that kind of ridership despite how crap those historic streetcars were, and we know that the original gold rush trolley line was extremely successful with the highest ridership in the CATS system.  After all, this route connects some of the densest employment and activity centers in and around uptown. From the edge of Belmont/P-M, through Novant, CPCC, the government center, Uptown proper, Gateway, and then 5 Points/JC Smith.

While Trade has never had the kind of congestion that 3rd, 4th, and 5th streets have, I am in total agreement that making the rail lane a dedicate transit lane (with the exception of 2-lane stretches) would go far to ensure success with this project. A transit only lane would also benefit the many bus lines that use Trade.

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, tozmervo said:

I've always felt like an outlier believing the streetcar will do fine.

Both gold rush trolley and Phase 1 had one thing in common, they were free to the user.

It changes the dynamic drastically when you make it a real revenue service.

[tozmervo]

6 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Both gold rush trolley and Phase 1 had one thing in common, they were free to the user.

It changes the dynamic drastically when you make it a real revenue service.

At least the data I'm aware of doesn't bear that out, though. When previously-ticketed transit was made free, it only increased ridership by low single digits.

There's also the monthly-pass effect: there's a good chance many Charlotteans already regularly using the bus or blue line have a monthly pass, so those users could hop on and off already. The same is true of transfers, so a bus passenger trying to get to CPCC would just use their bus ticket to board the streetcar. That's going to be a very common scenario. (And hopefully CATS finally sorts out a fare-capping system to help lower income users who can't pony up for a monthly pass.)

I DO think the Gold Rush was well utilized by folks parking in remote lots, and the streetcar won't necessarily grab those riders, but those remote lots have largely evaporated anyway. 

[michaelef]

This is just PATHETIC 

 

[kermit]

^ Gezzus christ

Design build contracts suck, especially when they are with Balfour Beatty who has repeatedly demonstrated their incompetence with rail projects.

I would guess that this must push first revenue service into 2021. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by kermit

[NYtoCLT]

5 minutes ago, michaelef said:

This is just PATHETIC 

 

This is infuriating.  That is a year and a half behind schedule.  Where are our government officials?  I understand that the contractor is largely to blame, but how they can not provide any oversight?  This level of incompetence is unbelievable.  

[michaelef]

Can the city fine them? This should of been completed last year? Also, will this delay the opening of the line?

[Hushpuppy321]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

At least the data I'm aware of doesn't bear that out, though. When previously-ticketed transit was made free, it only increased ridership by low single digits.

There's also the monthly-pass effect: there's a good chance many Charlotteans already regularly using the bus or blue line have a monthly pass, so those users could hop on and off already. The same is true of transfers, so a bus passenger trying to get to CPCC would just use their bus ticket to board the streetcar. That's going to be a very common scenario. (And hopefully CATS finally sorts out a fare-capping system to help lower income users who can't pony up for a monthly pass.)

I DO think the Gold Rush was well utilized by folks parking in remote lots, and the streetcar won't necessarily grab those riders, but those remote lots have largely evaporated anyway. 

It would be nice if CATS could work out a Fee System with J.C. Smith, CPCC and Johnson & Wales like it did with UNCC charging all students $50 per semester (Transit Fee) but then they could ride all modes using their School ID.  Built in customer base.

[kermit]

16 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

It would be nice if CATS could work out a Fee System with J.C. Smith, CPCC and Johnson & Wales like it did with UNCC charging all students $50 per semester (Transit Fee) but then they could ride all modes using their School ID.  Built in customer base.

I believe that both CATS and UNCC are pleased with their arrangement (aside from JW Clay parking issues) so I would bet that JCSU and J&W are very likely to set the same deal up with CATS. I am less sure about CPCC, largely because they have so many students at satellite campuses which have poor transit connectivity.

IMO CATS should also make transit free for everyone 18 and under (instead of the youth fare). This is becoming increasingly common (Sacramento is one example). Also has the benefit of most of this ridership being off peak.

Edited March 12, 2020 by kermit

[nmundo]

7 hours ago, kermit said:

I believe that both CATS and UNCC are pleased with their arrangement (aside from JW Clay parking issues) so I would bet that JCSU and J&W are very likely to set the same deal up with CATS. I am less sure about CPCC, largely because they have so many students at satellite campuses which have poor transit connectivity.

IMO CATS should also make transit free for everyone 18 and under (instead of the youth fare). This is becoming increasingly common (Sacramento is one example). Also has the benefit of most of this ridership being off peak.

As a CPCC student last summer they sent out a poll that seemed to have been testing support for a similar system to UNCC's. There's been no mention of it since then so I don't know how it ended up.

[Third Strike]

I was reading the feasibility report on widening and redesigning the southern corridor of I-77, when I noticed that the plan calls for the realignment of Trade Street at the I-77 interchange. If this happens, then service to North Charlotte on the Gold Line could be disrupted in about a decade and could last for at least for a couple of years. 
 

See page 41 of this pdf:

https://connect.ncdot.gov/projects/planning/FeasibilityStudiesDocuments/Feasibility-Study_0810A_Report_2015.pdf

[tozmervo]

5 hours ago, Third Strike said:

I was reading the feasibility report on widening and redesigning the southern corridor of I-77, when I noticed that the plan calls for the realignment of Trade Street at the I-77 interchange. If this happens, then service to North Charlotte on the Gold Line could be disrupted in about a decade and could last for at least for a couple of years. 
 

See page 41 of this pdf:

https://connect.ncdot.gov/projects/planning/FeasibilityStudiesDocuments/Feasibility-Study_0810A_Report_2015.pdf

The city agrees, too. CRTPO provided this comment to the draft feasibility study:

[Yeahdoug]

There’s just zero accountability with this project. In the end we all pay for it with huge cost overruns. 

[tozmervo]

12 minutes ago, Yeahdoug said:

There’s just zero accountability with this project. In the end we all pay for it with huge cost overruns. 

The FTA quarterly report noted mediation/arbitration between CATS and the contractor. Are people expecting to see someone walk the plank? 

[NOLA2CLT]

17 hours ago, NYtoCLT said:

This is infuriating.  That is a year and a half behind schedule.  Where are our government officials?  I understand that the contractor is largely to blame, but how they can not provide any oversight?  This level of incompetence is unbelievable.  

I have been noticing that it has been extremely quite on the bridge the past few weeks...i wonder what they  %^&*ed up this time...on a positive note, at least our street stay quite for a few more months.

[NYtoCLT]

29 minutes ago, NOLA2CLT said:

I have been noticing that it has been extremely quite on the bridge the past few weeks...i wonder what they  %^&*ed up this time...on a positive note, at least our street stay quite for a few more months.

I noticed the lack of movement recently as well.  They are trying to blame supply chain because of Corona, but that is BS.  They saw a potential scapegoat and took it.  They also knew it would be less followed news with every outlet reporting on Corona 24/7.  

[Matthew.Brendan]

19 hours ago, michaelef said:

This is just PATHETIC 

 

 

Wow. I'd make some snarky comment, but at this point why even bother!

[Yeahdoug]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

The FTA quarterly report noted mediation/arbitration between CATS and the contractor. Are people expecting to see someone walk the plank? 

Yes, you should lose your job when you make major mistakes. Both on the public side and private side. 

[NOLA2CLT]

1 hour ago, Yeahdoug said:

Yes, you should lose your job when you make major mistakes. Both on the public side and private side. 

If thats the case, me thinks a July/August timeline is a bit steep to deliver on...I bet this crap gets delayed further to 2021.  

and MB, snarky comments are always welcome!