Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[kermit]

At the risk of straying off topic it appears that the Ft Worth city council is debating turning down their grant. Basically the same debate we have here but the council is now engaged in the arguments.

http://www.fwweekly.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3874:tearing-up-the-track&catid=76:metropolis&Itemid=377

[New Name]

At the risk of straying off topic it appears that the Ft Worth city council is debating turning down their grant. Basically the same debate we have here but the council is now engaged in the arguments.

http://www.fwweekly.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3874:tearing-up-the-track&catid=76:metropolis&Itemid=377

It can't be good (for the Obama Administration, politically) if the "winners" don't want to be winners. But, tt sure would be nice if Ft. Worth and Cincinnati would give Charlotte their money

[Urbanity]

City Council votes tonight on accepting the $25m federal grant for the starter streetcar. Let's hope the vote is quick and swift in favor.

[New Name]

^This is a pipe-dream.... but supposing Ft. Worth and/or Cincinatti turn down their grant money. And $50M goes back into the pot. I wonder if the Fed will give those two funds to the next two cities not chosen, or divide up the $50M to the three remaining. If so (pipe-dream), $16.6M to Charlotte is EXACTLY what the city needs to close the funding gap. Would that shut up the anti-transit tightwads? (probably not)

[dubone]

Wait is Charlotte trying to turn down the money already granted? Or is this just referring to the other cities turning it down and whether we'll get even more if they do?

[New Name]

Wait is Charlotte trying to turn down the money already granted? Or is this just referring to the other cities turning it down and whether we'll get even more if they do?

^ The second one.

I assume Charlotte will accept the grant.

I wonder if Cinci and/or Ft. Worth turned it down, what the Fed would do with Cinci/Ft. Worth's share.

[dubone]

Thanks for the clarification. I was baffled how I missed something so huge.

Here's hoping Charlotte city council is not as crazy as others.

[tozmervo]

The council has voted to accept the grant.

Yays (6): Democrats Jason Burgess, Patrick Cannon, Nancy Carter, David Howard, Patsy Kinsey and James Mitchell

Nays (5): Democrats Michael Barnes and Warren Turner and Republicans Warren Cooksey, Andy Dulin and Edwin Peacock

[dubone]

Wow, Patsy Kinsey must have noticed this served Elizabeth. Hard to believe that accepting that much federal money would be such a slim margin.

[cityboi]

The only downside I see is that expensive operational costs of this trolley network could end up delaying light and commuter rail extensions which are more important than an uptown trolley network. It appears the vote was so close because opponents said Charlotte can't afford this right now with all the other rail projects and other issues on its plate. Yes Federal money is being applied here but its going to cost city taxpayers as well. Its a good idea. Other cities in NC have streetcar plans (Winston-Salem and Raleigh) but those cities don't have light or commuter rail either. But I do understand why proponents are going after the funding.

Edited July 27, 2010 by cityboi

[archiham04]

Since I miss the days of big fictional ideas on Urban Planet...

I've been dreaming up my own fictional service route from presby to atherton mills:

[New Name]

Can anyone remember how this effects the Gold Rush Red Line? Would the streetcar not replace this route (I hope). And who pays the costs on the free Gold Rush (Drivers, gas, fleet)? I wonder if the elimination of those Gold Rush costs would offset the $1.5M operational cost of the streetcar?

[InitialD]

Can anyone remember how this effects the Gold Rush Red Line? Would the streetcar not replace this route (I hope). And who pays the costs on the free Gold Rush (Drivers, gas, fleet)? I wonder if the elimination of those Gold Rush costs would offset the $1.5M operational cost of the streetcar?

I thought BofA footed the bill for Goldrush, and I thought it was losing funding regardless of streetcar development.

Oh, and I like the idea of running the historic trolleys from Elizabeth to Atherton Mills in Southend. It would be nice to connect the two neighborhoods without having to switch to LRT. However, I don't know if they could do it with only 3 (I think) serviceable trolleys. I'm guessing they will be running two back and forth from CTC to Presby with a 3rd for spare/switch out for maintenance.

[kermit]

I've been dreaming up my own fictional service route from presby to atherton mills:

I think it is a great idea, it would make it more of a true circulator. My only concern is that with only three vehicles (which will be slower to load than the LRT) they would not have enough frequency to make it useful over that length of route.

At a minimum they should run to the existing 9th st station (if they could fit the transit center in without a backing move)

EDIT: InitialD beat me to it.

Edited July 27, 2010 by kermit

[Sabaidee]

The only downside I see is that expensive operational costs of this trolley network could end up delaying light and commuter rail extensions which are more important than an uptown trolley network. It appears the vote was so close because opponents said Charlotte can't afford this right now with all the other rail projects and other issues on its plate. Yes Federal money is being applied here but its going to cost city taxpayers as well. Its a good idea. Other cities in NC have streetcar plans (Winston-Salem and Raleigh) but those cities don't have light or commuter rail either. But I do understand why proponents are going after the funding.

I was at the meeting last night, the substitute motion that failed was regarding how this would affect the Blue Line extension. The Mayor said CATS needs another $40M for the next engineering stage, but the Senate has cut the available funding for transit and we might get $3.7M instead. The transit tax will not be used to operate the streetcar, the operational cost will be using city funds.

[archiham04]

However, I don't know if they could do it with only 3 (I think) serviceable trolleys. I'm guessing they will be running two back and forth from CTC to Presby with a 3rd for spare/switch out for maintenance.

...and if they were having trouble working 2 trolley cars into the LRT track schedule I can imagine that they would be even harder pressed to accomodate more, but a guy can dream.

[dubone]

I agree that it seemed at first like the obvious thing to do to run the cars to Atherton. But I wouldn't want to reduce frequency on the new route just to have users avoid a transfer to the Blue Line.

Here is maybe a radical question, since the new wires would be compatible with the Blue Line wiring which the trolleys are on now, what is stopping them from running some of the LRVs from the Blue Line on these tracks? Is it purely the risk of accident, which some transit agencies seem to accept by running their LRT in mixed traffic?

To me, I think it would be cool to have a train or two that would idle at times on the Blue Line supplement capacity on this section. Just pay for the proper insurance.

Or does someone know of a technical reason that would keep those vehicles from working here?

[archiham04]

At a minimum they should run to the existing 9th st station (if they could fit the transit center in without a backing move)

I would accept this as a compromise.

[kermit]

Or does someone know of a technical reason that would keep those vehicles from working here?

pretty sure that they have different load heights so it would likely mean more $$ to build stops which can accommodate each vehicle. You can see the lower trolly platforms at the shared stations on the blue line. I suspect that the trolley platforms will go when/if blue line platforms are extended to fit three cars.

Differences in vehicle length may also be an issue depending on how the stops are constructed (do 'modern' streetcars just have one entry door, like a bus?)

Edited July 27, 2010 by kermit

[New Name]

I was at the meeting last night, the substitute motion that failed was regarding how this would affect the Blue Line extension. The Mayor said CATS needs another $40M for the next engineering stage, but the Senate has cut the available funding for transit and we might get $3.7M instead. The transit tax will not be used to operate the streetcar, the operational cost will be using city funds.

I'm confused a little - was the Mayor was commenting about the money available for LYNX Extension *saying CATS needs $40M to continue past the 30% design, but they might ONLY get $3.7M from the city?* Was this a comment regarding redirecting the city's earmarked $14M toward LYNX rather than the Streetcar? And what does that mean for the $40M? Out of luck?

[Sabaidee]

I'm confused a little - was the Mayor was commenting about the money available for LYNX Extension *saying CATS needs $40M to continue past the 30% design, but they might ONLY get $3.7M from the city?* Was this a comment regarding redirecting the city's earmarked $14M toward LYNX rather than the Streetcar? And what does that mean for the $40M? Out of luck?

That $3.7M would be from the US Senate, it's still in committee however. That point was brought up at the meeting to point out how hard transit money was going to come by.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Shawn&Zae

[southslider]

Will it really cost $40 million to just complete the design work on BLE? That's more than what it will cost ($37M) to finish design AND construction of the Streetcar starter segment.

[jednc]

I thought this was an interesting article in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution about Charlotte's Grant Win...

http://www.ajc.com/news/charlotte-accepts-25-million-581041.html

[southslider]

FYI, the last round of community meetings is being held this week and next for the public to see and comment on the preliminary engineering plans for the full 10-mile streetcar route.

Tonight (Sept. 28) at Central United Methodist. Thursday night (Sept. 30) at Johnson C. Smith University. Next Wednesday evening at the Government Center. All meetings run 6-8pm.

Edited September 28, 2010 by southslider

[New Name]

Wonder when we'll start to see movement on the initial line... construction needs to finish within 18 months of decision (July 2010) - so that would be Jan 2012 to complete at the latest.