Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[kermit]

42 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

completed tracks near the Square where the trains run by the sidewalk.  I hope there is plans to limit where people can cross with barriers of some sort or pedestrian accidents will happen by distracted walkers.  These trains will not stop on the dime.  Houston has that where the tracks are right at the sidewalk.  No jaywalking maybe with chained off areas with pedestrians crossing on the street corners. 

I dunno, I suspect ringing the bell a bunch when passing through will do the trick and crosswalk indicators will be tied to the presence of the Gold Line. There aren't many car-ped incidents here as is, so I am not sure we should expect more streetcar-ped incidents.

This sort of open track setup exists in many cities (Portland, Dallas, Boston, Cleveland, San Francisco, Toronto, Melbourne, Vienna, Amsterdam, Zurich, Geneva, Hong Kong, Milan, Munich, Berlin, London, Manchester... and also pedestrian crossings on the Blue Line)  and it generally works fine. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by kermit

[KJHburg]

I hope you are right but people with ear buds everywhere and walking and talking on their phones.  Some unfortunately will find out the wrong way. It will be a learning curve for those in this city especially with vehicles and trains as it was in Houston. 

[kermit]

I could certainly imagine Phase 2.5 (French St to I-85, plus French st storage facility) could be funded through a congressional earmark (if Alma Adams is paying attention) in the next couple of years. It would be a very high visibility opportunity for an infrastructure project.  Of course this would require the city pushing for it, which is something I have not seen yet. I would guess it could be built for less than $30 million (its about 1.5 miles).

https://www.rollcall.com/2020/11/20/hoyer-earmarks-are-likely-coming-back-next-year/

Edited November 20, 2020 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

On 11/20/2020 at 4:37 PM, kermit said:

I could certainly imagine Phase 2.5 (French St to I-85, plus French st storage facility) could be funded through a congressional earmark (if Alma Adams is paying attention) in the next couple of years. It would be a very high visibility opportunity for an infrastructure project.  Of course this would require the city pushing for it, which is something I have not seen yet. I would guess it could be built for less than $30 million (its about 1.5 miles).

https://www.rollcall.com/2020/11/20/hoyer-earmarks-are-likely-coming-back-next-year/

That $30 Million estimate is taking in the cost of a Rail Bridge over NC16?  I think it would be higher...

[Third Strike]

5 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

That $30 Million estimate is taking in the cost of a Rail Bridge over NC16?  I think it would be higher...

Probably much higher, especially if the I-85 bridge has to be replaced too. 

[kermit]

I forgot about the bridge over the Brookshire, that was a big careless error. So scratch my $30 million estimate, unless NCDOT plans to pay for bridge replacement separately (like on the Silver Line Catawba bridge).

I didn’t think they planned to go over 85. I don’t see what you gain from that vs terminating it just short of the interstate.

Edited November 22, 2020 by kermit

[sakami]

The Hawthorne Bridge is progressing. The pavement around the tracks on Hawthorne has finally been evened out so I can stop driving crookedly down the street. 

[Third Strike]

On 11/22/2020 at 7:34 AM, kermit said:

I forgot about the bridge over the Brookshire, that was a big careless error. So scratch my $30 million estimate, unless NCDOT plans to pay for bridge replacement separately (like on the Silver Line Catawba bridge).

I didn’t think they planned to go over 85. I don’t see what you gain from that vs terminating it just short of the interstate.

I think their reasoning is to connect the Gold Line to the Rosa Parks Transit Center, which is inconveniently on the other side of the I-85 bridge. 

[kermit]

24 minutes ago, Third Strike said:

I think their reasoning is to connect the Gold Line to the Rosa Parks Transit Center, which is inconveniently on the other side of the I-85 bridge. 

aww man, I do remember that now. I guess CATS doesn't spend much time thinking about avoidable costs when doing initial route scoping. Bummer.

(and my apologies for my wildly uninformed cost estimates -- its a good thing that is not my job)

Edited November 23, 2020 by kermit

[kermit]

I don't think CATS is teasing anything here but it really is time to see test runs on actual Gold Line track.

How is Hawthorne bridge looking?

 

 

[CLT>]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

I don't think CATS is teasing anything here but it really is time to see test runs on actual Gold Line track.

How is Hawthorne bridge looking?

 

 

I really wish CATS social media team would respond to issues, service changes, and rider enquires instead of post motivational quotes and random pictures.

[KJHburg]

Trade St at 77 streetcar tracks today. 

[rancenc]

Opening up at the beginning of the new year!

https://qcitymetro.com/2020/12/07/gold-line-extension-set-to-open-in-january-2021/e

[Yeahdoug]

Damn the new lighting is bright af. I’m two stories above and need new window shades now. Lol 

[KJHburg]

1 hour ago, Yeahdoug said:

Damn the new lighting is bright af. I’m two stories above and need new window shades now. Lol 

Blackout drapes available at Lowes 

[michaelef]

4 hours ago, Yeahdoug said:

Damn the new lighting is bright af. I’m two stories above and need new window shades now. Lol 

So they did go with LED lighting then?! Good  Charlotte is way behind on switching to LED streetlights.

[joenc]

What's the effective max length of a streetcar line?

I think they call streetcars trams elsewhere. When I was in Budapest last year, I used the tram quite a bit. They have almost 100 miles of it in 36 lines.

Edited December 8, 2020 by joenc

[kermit]

1 hour ago, joenc said:

What's the effective max length of a streetcar line?

I think they call streetcars trams elsewhere. When I was in Budapest last year, I used the tram quite a bit. They have almost 100 miles of it in 36 lines.

There is no technical maximum length, its only a question of how long will riders tolerate the ride. The Blue Line was planned mostly for end to center riders -- the Gold Line has a very different ridership expectation, its for circulation rather than long-distance rides. That difference means that length should be functionally irrelevant. Unfortunately it would be a long ride from Eastland to Uptown (always slower than driving), but if Eastland riders just wanted to go to PM then the Gold Line is much more practical.

Unfortunately, CATS has said that Gold Line frequency will be 15 minutes at peak and 'longer' at off peak so its value as a circulator is pretty limited at these frequencies. For circulators to work well they need to be at 5 minute frequencies (see Toronto, Melbourne or any European city), CATS is wasting this opportunity because they are cheap.

Edited December 8, 2020 by kermit

[Yeahdoug]

6 minutes ago, kermit said:

There is no technical maximum length, its only a question of how long will riders tolerate the ride. The Blue Line was planned mostly for end to center riders, since the Gold Line is intended for circulation, rather than long-distance rides, length should be functionally irrelevant.

Unfortunately, CATS has said that Gold Line frequency will be 15 minutes at peak and 'longer' at off peak so its value as a circulator is pretty limited at these frequencies. For streetcars to work well they need to be at 5 minute frequencies (see Toronto, Melbourne or any European city), CATS is wasting this opportunity because they are cheap.

Guess I’ll just walk halfway to where I’m going before I hop on 

[kermit]

18 minutes ago, Yeahdoug said:

Guess I’ll just walk halfway to where I’m going before I hop on 

^yup, exactly. And at that point why bother to pay the fare?

 

 

[kermit]

If I remember correctly, the Hawthorne Bridge closed in 2005...

 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by kermit

[LKN704]

Oof...30 min headways on Sundays, and 15 mins during peak times. I get trains are sexy and its easier to get people out of their cars and onto trains than it is to get them on a bus, but taking the headways into consideration it seems almost like a waste of money to me. An enhanced circulator style bus service that ran every 10 minutes (like the Gold Rush Trolleys) would have been a greater investment. 

Then again, I looked at other operating streetcars in the US and that seems to be the norm:

-Portland: 15min peak/20 min off peak

-SLC: 15 min peak/20 min off peak

-OKC: 15 mins all day

-Dallas: 20 minutes at all times

-DC: 12 minutes all day

-Tucson: 10-15 mins weekdays, 20-30 minutes weekends

I wonder who the target market for the streetcar is supposed to be. Considering its length, walking to your destination would probably be faster than waiting for the train 50% of the time. 

 

[jthomas]

15 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Oof...30 min headways on Sundays, and 15 mins during peak times. I get trains are sexy and its easier to get people out of their cars and onto trains than it is to get them on a bus, but taking the headways into consideration it seems almost like a waste of money to me. An enhanced circulator style bus service that ran every 10 minutes (like the Gold Rush Trolleys) would have been a greater investment. 

Then again, I looked at other operating streetcars in the US and that seems to be the norm:

-Portland: 15min peak/20 min off peak

-SLC: 15 min peak/20 min off peak

-OKC: 15 mins all day

-Dallas: 20 minutes at all times

-DC: 12 minutes all day

-Tucson: 10-15 mins weekdays, 20-30 minutes weekends

I wonder who the target market for the streetcar is supposed to be. Considering its length, walking to your destination would probably be faster than waiting for the train 50% of the time. 

 

Pitiful, isn't it? The additional cost of purchasing and operating one or two additional vehicles in order to provide useful service seems like it would be relatively small compared to the cost of constructing the systems in the first place. But then again, few American cities are interested in operating useful public transit. Most of these systems seem to be built for reasons other than increasing mobility for people...

[15895]

On 12/10/2020 at 7:13 PM, LKN704 said:

Oof...30 min headways on Sundays, and 15 mins during peak times. I get trains are sexy and its easier to get people out of their cars and onto trains than it is to get them on a bus, but taking the headways into consideration it seems almost like a waste of money to me. An enhanced circulator style bus service that ran every 10 minutes (like the Gold Rush Trolleys) would have been a greater investment. 

Then again, I looked at other operating streetcars in the US and that seems to be the norm:

-Portland: 15min peak/20 min off peak

-SLC: 15 min peak/20 min off peak

-OKC: 15 mins all day

-Dallas: 20 minutes at all times

-DC: 12 minutes all day

-Tucson: 10-15 mins weekdays, 20-30 minutes weekends

I wonder who the target market for the streetcar is supposed to be. Considering its length, walking to your destination would probably be faster than waiting for the train 50% of the time. 

 

Geez.

Cant believe DC is better than the rest because that streetcar is the most useless thing in the world (but it does look pretty....).

I say that as a person who only uses public transportation in DC. I want to like it, I would love to use it. But I’m not spending 30 minutes of my life waiting on a streetcar to go a mile or so. Especially when a bike lane can get me where I need in a few minutes. Or buses or Uber or even just walking. 

Back in Charlotte when I worked at BofA Corp., I’d take the streetcar when it first opened. Seeing it just leave the transit center, at 5pm. It was literally faster to walk nearly the entire thing. Streetcars need to have dedicated lanes. 

IMO, the only thing that may save this streetcar is students from CPCC. Especially if their tuition covers free rides. 

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by AirNostrumMAD

[elrodvt]

9 hours ago, jthomas said:

Pitiful, isn't it? The additional cost of purchasing and operating one or two additional vehicles in order to provide useful service seems like it would be relatively small compared to the cost of constructing the systems in the first place. But then again, few American cities are interested in operating useful public transit. Most of these systems seem to be built for reasons other than increasing mobility for people...

Agree. I'm a fanatic about using mass transit to reduce my footprint but Charlotte's system is a joke. If even I drive they have little hope of making an impact. And that's just because of headways don't get me started on nothing running on schedule or far to frequent down times. They run it like it's a toy railroad. Why they heck haven't we cut the head off this agency and restaffed??