Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[videtur quam contuor]

Asheville was the first city in NC to have electric rail trolleys. The steep grade on city streets made electric trolleys an obvious answer for moving people. Anyone who has walked any distance in Asheville knows the grades there can sap a spirit for shopping.

https://www.ourstate.com/history-of-north-carolina-streetcars/

[kermit]

2 hours ago, Nathan2 said:

When are they going to start testing or running vehicles on the line?

Nine months ago...

[Hushpuppy321]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Nine months ago...

You seem very knowledgeable about all things Rail.  Do you think this Streetcar in Charlotte will actually begin to spur some growth along the line once phase II is open and actually goes somewhere?

[sakami]

4 hours ago, Nathan2 said:

When are they going to start testing or running vehicles on the line?

Per their Facebook post from the other “early 2021”. Whatever that means. I literally drive down Hawthorne Lane 5x a week so the minute I see a vehicle I will post a picture just to prove it is happening. 
 

[kermit]

1 minute ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

You seem very knowledgeable about all things Rail.

Not sure I agree with you, I just read a bunch of stuff about trains and transit (but thanks).

2 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Do you think this Streetcar in Charlotte will actually begin to spur some growth along the line once phase II is open and actually goes somewhere?

Short answer: Yes

Longer answer: The devil is in the details on this sort of question. I do think the streetcar will trigger lots of new development in the Five Points area around JCSU and perhaps some additional densification around Catawba Brewing at the other end. Most importantly, the streetcar's presence will enable more parkingless and parking lite developments on the West side which is a big positive.   Other than enabling development with less parking, people will argue that the development which will occur adjacent to the streetcar would have happened even without the streetcar. In the near term I think this view is probably correct (the streetcar won't trigger any new construction which would not have otherwise occurred). However, over the longer term, the development along the streetcar route will be much denser and more walkable than it would have been without the streetcar (and this is something we badly need in order to reduce carbon emissions and to enable more transit)

[Hushpuppy321]

6 minutes ago, kermit said:

Not sure I agree with you, I just read a bunch of stuff about trains and transit (but thanks).

Short answer: Yes

Longer answer: The devil is in the details on this sort of question. I do think the streetcar will trigger lots of new development in the Five Points area around JCSU and perhaps some additional densification around Catawba Brewing at the other end. Most importantly, the streetcar's presence will enable more parkingless and parking lite developments on the West side which is a big positive.   Other than enabling development with less parking, people will argue that the development which will occur adjacent to the streetcar would have happened even without the streetcar. In the near term I think this view is probably correct (the streetcar won't trigger any new construction which would not have otherwise occurred). However, over the longer term, the development along the streetcar route will be much denser and more walkable than it would have been without the streetcar (and this is something we badly need in order to reduce carbon emissions and to enable more transit)

People use Portland as an example of good use of Streetcars.  I wonder how much the streetcars there have spurred growth and how much people use their Streetcars for commuting.  They seemed to have high ridership numbers prior to the Pandemic

[CLT2014]

I always struggle with the streetcar. We had a perfectly fine Gold Rush shuttle bus that was FREE to ride and basically covered the entire streetcar route at a very reasonable operating cost of $895,000 annually, only to be replaced by a train that covers the same route, sits in the same traffic, gets blocked by poorly parked cars,  costs over $6 million annually to operate, and will charge riders instead. I used to hop on the Gold Rush all the time as a great alternative to walking on hot days, et. or going to  Elizabeth from Uptown and it served the purpose really well. Then they put the streetcar in and it was usually faster to walk! I certainly wouldn't pay to ride it.

Am I missing something that the Street Car brings over Gold Rush? I just see more expense to operate + not free to ride on the exact same route (more or less) as Gold Rush. Not sure if the point of this thing is actually improving mobility or more about giving developers something flashy / fancy to advertise to future luxury apartment dwellers who will work at a bank and have a Toyota 4Runner TRD or Jeep Grand Cherokee gas guzzler to drive to the Uptown Whole Foods.

Edited January 21, 2021 by CLT2014

[JacksonH]

6 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Not sure if the point of this thing is actually improving mobility or more about giving developers something flashy / fancy to advertise to future luxury apartment dwellers who will work at a bank and have a Toyota 4Runner TRD or Jeep Grand Cherokee gas guzzler to drive to the Uptown Whole Foods.

The latter IMO.  They're doing this just for a return on their investment; i.e., encouraging high scale development that ultimately will house people unlikely to even use transit very much,  but who will be bringing a lot of tax dollars to the city.

[kermit]

There is no doubt that the performance of the Gold Line is going to be painfully mediocre over the next 5ish years. But I gotta ask, does its  performance in the short run really matter? 

We are building this thing to change land use and reduce auto dependence over the next 20-50 years, Are there any other strategies that can realistically accomplish that? What happens in the first five years after opening is almost irrelevant to attaining that goal.

The Gold Rush was great, but it went away. That seems like a clear demonstration of why buses fail to change land use (they are just not permanent enough).

Having said that, I do agree that CATS and the city seem to be fudgeing up with their low-frequency, shared lanes strategy to start. Really poor route alignment of Silver and Gold around Central and Plaza is another colossal fudge up. Despite that IMO Charlotte is better off with the Gold Line in 20 years than without it.

Edited January 22, 2021 by kermit

[Nathan2]

20 hours ago, kermit said:

Nine months ago...

I should rephrase, on the actual gold line. 

[tozmervo]

I'm seeing some rose-colored glasses with the Gold Rush. The only thing it had going for it was rush hour frequency, but it was otherwise as unreliable on schedule as you could get. It was also - by far - the most uncomfortable bus ride you could plan on.  The Gold Rush's operating budget was heavily subsidized by the banks and it's service was scaled back as the banks scaled back their support. CATS would have needed to reduce service elsewhere in the system to maintain those lines on their own.

I know I'm one of the few bullish on the streetcar, and there are things I wish could be better about it. On a macro level, I'm more concerned about system ridership recovering overall. As it is, the Gold Line will be opening while Uptown is just beginning recovery, and CPCC/JCS won't be fully operational until next fall at the earliest.

[videtur quam contuor]

And the homeless men riding, riding, riding the Gold Rush. If a driver ever evicted one I did not see it. It was their right I suppose to ride to eternity.

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

I really hope someday Elizabeth ave gets developed a little more in that area near Viva chicken and on the other side of the tracks the spoke easy. All those empty lots. That could be a very very cool area someday if that street was lined with shops and restaurants all the way from cpcc to the hospital. I can’t remember if this was the reasoning for lack of development but does the hospital own some of the parking lots?

[Hushpuppy321]

On 1/22/2021 at 9:38 AM, tozmervo said:

I'm seeing some rose-colored glasses with the Gold Rush. The only thing it had going for it was rush hour frequency, but it was otherwise as unreliable on schedule as you could get. It was also - by far - the most uncomfortable bus ride you could plan on.  The Gold Rush's operating budget was heavily subsidized by the banks and it's service was scaled back as the banks scaled back their support. CATS would have needed to reduce service elsewhere in the system to maintain those lines on their own.

I know I'm one of the few bullish on the streetcar, and there are things I wish could be better about it. On a macro level, I'm more concerned about system ridership recovering overall. As it is, the Gold Line will be opening while Uptown is just beginning recovery, and CPCC/JCS won't be fully operational until next fall at the earliest.

I agree with you on the Ridership part.  Seems like the Pandemic will have lasting effects on transportation systems nationwide.  The planned Referendum this coming November couldn’t be timed any worse.  If it was in November of 2019 (If CATS & City were ready) it would’ve passed with flying colors but now the optics of any proposed Tax Increase (even though it wouldn’t take effect for a year or two) will hold as much weight against a Yes vote as any other substantive argument against mass transit will.

[JRCLT]

I agree with you on the Ridership part.  Seems like the Pandemic will have lasting effects on transportation systems nationwide.  The planned Referendum this coming November couldn’t be timed any worse.  If it was in November of 2019 (If CATS & City were ready) it would’ve passed with flying colors but now the optics of any proposed Tax Increase (even though it wouldn’t take effect for a year or two) will hold as much weight against a Yes vote as any other substantive argument against mass transit will.

I would like to say that everyone has been talking about the Pandemic’s affect on how people will do things differently when it comes to office work at home (which honestly lowers productivity in certain circumstances IMO). There have been these epidemics in Asia and SARS-COV2 is not the first, yet East Asia continues to support their transportation infrastructure and office buildings are still part of the work environment. This pandemic is by all means nothing to brush off and has been the worst so far out all those outbreaks, but I think some are over estimating the effects the pandemic will have on our lives moving forward when it is safe enough to return to somewhat normal function (pre-covid). I would like to state that I do not know what the future is and how exactly every entity is reacting to covid, but just my thoughts. Mass Transit will continue to be an increasing necessity for many and for the efficiency and sustainability of our cities.

[sakami]

On 1/22/2021 at 9:38 AM, tozmervo said:

I'm seeing some rose-colored glasses with the Gold Rush. The only thing it had going for it was rush hour frequency, but it was otherwise as unreliable on schedule as you could get. It was also - by far - the most uncomfortable bus ride you could plan on.  The Gold Rush's operating budget was heavily subsidized by the banks and it's service was scaled back as the banks scaled back their support. CATS would have needed to reduce service elsewhere in the system to maintain those lines on their own.

I know I'm one of the few bullish on the streetcar, and there are things I wish could be better about it. On a macro level, I'm more concerned about system ridership recovering overall. As it is, the Gold Line will be opening while Uptown is just beginning recovery, and CPCC/JCS won't be fully operational until next fall at the earliest.

I am with you in questioning the fond memories of the Gold Rush. I remember trying to ride it from 3 Wachovia up to the square  on multiple occasions and it just never came. I had one friend who wanted to ride it somewhat regularly and it was purely to get to her car she parked in one of the old cheap lots across 277.  And even then more than half the time she would give up and hoof the walk in heels because it wasn’t worth waiting for. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by sakami

[t_money]

On 1/22/2021 at 2:38 PM, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

I really hope someday Elizabeth ave gets developed a little more in that area near Viva chicken and on the other side of the tracks the spoke easy. All those empty lots. That could be a very very cool area someday if that street was lined with shops and restaurants all the way from cpcc to the hospital. I can’t remember if this was the reasoning for lack of development but does the hospital own some of the parking lots?

Yes I believe either the hospital or CPCC owns basically everything in that area. So we are stuck with 2 parking garages on one block, and 4 gravel parking lots within 2 blocks of that. All within walking distance of the street car 

[kermit]

As always, CATS is on the ball and completely transparent.

(hat tip to Jason Thomas)

[Hushpuppy321]

45 minutes ago, kermit said:

As always, CATS is on the ball and completely transparent.

(hat tip to Jason Thomas)

If they don't start testing the vehicles in the next 2 or 3 weeks then this will not open up to the General Public in March.  Would probably be April or May.

[uptownliving]

I don't have any inside information...but remember back in December the person in the Lynx operations that had a holiday party that a good number of employees attended and there was a mini covid outbreak which forced CATS to move to Sunday schedule due to lack of personnel.

My guess is that there was some disciplinary actions taken after that ...and that has really put a crimp on availability of drivers not just for the Blue line but the Gold line as well. So that is my guess as to why there are still delays...there are not enough drivers even with the Blue line still on a Sunday schedule....I wonder if a number of operators were fired/suspended after that holiday party.

[Hushpuppy321]

2 hours ago, uptownliving said:

I don't have any inside information...but remember back in December the person in the Lynx operations that had a holiday party that a good number of employees attended and there was a mini covid outbreak which forced CATS to move to Sunday schedule due to lack of personnel.

My guess is that there was some disciplinary actions taken after that ...and that has really put a crimp on availability of drivers not just for the Blue line but the Gold line as well. So that is my guess as to why there are still delays...there are not enough drivers even with the Blue line still on a Sunday schedule....I wonder if a number of operators were fired/suspended after that holiday party.

I might need to apply.  Been thinking about being trained as a Driver\Operator.  They have openings for this on the City Website

Edited January 27, 2021 by Hushpuppy321

[videtur quam contuor]

Found these today. Tokens for the Charlotte Trolley. Smaller on left have no date and say "one fare".  Larger on right say 2004 and "One Dollar"  Maybe one was CATS struck and other Charlotte Trolley struck? I drove trolley in 2002-2004, and then again with the Saturday-Sunday  excursion from Tremont station to 7th street until 2009. Excursion was free so these are from early 2000's. Better to say "one fare" since cost can change without restrike of token. 

Those who collect transportation tokens are known as vecturists:  https://vecturist.com/

I have a small collection from my aunt (DOB 1898) who collected them in her travels. Mostly similar to these although a few paper tickets also. I keep two of them on my key ring and very occasionally gift another to someone for whom it is an appropriate item. Most are valuable similar to stamps, Those who wish to complete a collection of some kind or another and may pay a few dollars. The joy is in the pursuit and obtaining, not the intrinsic value, of which there is none.

 

 

[SouthEndCLT811]

Very cool to share.  The back of the coin on the bottom left and the placement of the 'T' made me think of our new MLS team's branding.  Seeing things like this make me feel like they may have actually done some research into the areas history and it wasn't all as generic as some people made it sound.

[videtur quam contuor]

To finish the memory:

After 15 hours or so of training I earned my motorman certificate. This is unofficial in every regard as there was no standard for training except as accepted by the Charlotte Trolley people. The paper is just an acknowledgement. I learned long ago that even adults will compete for a gold star, so the piece of paper is satisfying. I still have it so that is some proof of its meaning I suppose.

I realized at the time that I was never asked for my driver license for this work. I operated on city property and on city streets crossing intersections. No license requested or needed, apparently. 

 

After the most modest of ceremonies I was presented with my motorman hat. It was ordered for me to my fit and at no charge to me. There were about 10-12 men who worked the trolley during my time. It ran Friday afternoon and evening and all day Saturday and Sunday. This was car 85 with the Cummins diesel generator on a small separate car ahead or behind, depending on direction. There were a few trips made by 85 after the light rail was complete that used the trolley pole and the pole was necessary to enter and exit the trolley barn at the Atherton location. No diesel engine operation allowed inside the barn. The overhead wire extended nearly to the Tremont Station. For the excursion cars in 2007-2009, those were Gomaco cars with a pantograph. 

(I am still available for motorman duty)

[elrodvt]

I'll buy that cap off you! ;-)

Very cool.