Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[t_money]

14 hours ago, RANYC said:

It's funny you should bring this up.  I checked out Big Ben the other night and was bemused by the situation on Elizabeth.  Feels like there's potential there for an entertainment district, or at least a vibrant, pedestrian-prioritized corridor of amusements and revelry.  Yet, no one has thought to consider that stretch for a brewery  or beer garden or even an apartment tower.  I've wondered what might be holding it back from fulfilling its potential as a bustling and walkable corridor of mixed uses...a rare scene in Charlotte. 

 

Most the land is owned by CPCC or Novant right?

[tozmervo]

CPCC only owns the plot right at Elizabeth and Charlottetown. The vast majority of the empty land is otherwise owned by Novant. "Providence Road Partners" has quite a few parcels on the south side of Elizabeth.

[davidclt]

18 hours ago, RANYC said:

It's funny you should bring this up.  I checked out Big Ben the other night and was bemused by the situation on Elizabeth.  Feels like there's potential there for an entertainment district, or at least a vibrant, pedestrian-prioritized corridor of amusements and revelry.  Yet, no one has thought to consider that stretch for a brewery  or beer garden or even an apartment tower.  I've wondered what might be holding it back from fulfilling its potential as a bustling and walkable corridor of mixed uses...a rare scene in Charlotte. 

Didn't Clay Grubb have plans for the Elizabeth?

In 2004: https://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/topic/3500-elizabeth-projects-7th-st-elizabeth-ave-etc/

 

 

In 2006: https://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/topic/3500-elizabeth-projects-7th-st-elizabeth-ave-etc/?do=findComment&comment=311251

In 2015: Clay Grubb talks about Elizabeth and the trolley | Charlotte Observer
In 2026: ???
In 2037: 
("We were promised jetpacks")

Edited July 15, 2021 by davidclt

[NYtoCLT]

On 7/14/2021 at 8:39 PM, RANYC said:

It's funny you should bring this up.  I checked out Big Ben the other night and was bemused by the situation on Elizabeth.  Feels like there's potential there for an entertainment district, or at least a vibrant, pedestrian-prioritized corridor of amusements and revelry.  Yet, no one has thought to consider that stretch for a brewery  or beer garden or even an apartment tower.  I've wondered what might be holding it back from fulfilling its potential as a bustling and walkable corridor of mixed uses...a rare scene in Charlotte. 

The parking lot across the street needs to be developed.  If you have a 5-7 story apartment building at the corner of Elizabeth and Hawthorne with retail down Elizabeth opposite the existing retail it would create a symmetry that is needed (plus the residents would utilize).  It's a big lot that extends to 4th.  So much wasted potential.

[ajfunder]

My understanding from a few contacts is that Novant has final say on most of the vacant parcels and is being very conservative if not downright against any development on these parcels. They are worried about needing them in the future for hospital expansion. The gist I got is that Novant is holding this strip hostage. 

[tozmervo]

Just caught this in the latest CDOT Street Use Notice. I think we can all agree that it would be super weird to have this event and not have the streetcar open yet.

August 7, 2021: CATS CityLYNX Gold Line Community Events
This event is to thank the community, residents, and businesses for their support of the cityLYNX Gold Line Streetcar Phase II Project.

The events will be held at three locations:

Trade Street between Brevard Street and the entrance to the bus station (westbound lanes only)
Trade Street between Montgomery Street and S. Bruns Ave. (eastbound lanes only)
Elizabeth Ave. between Travis Street and Hawthorne Ave. (eastbound lanes only)
Events hours are 11:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Lanes will close at 5:00 a.m. and reopen at 6:30 p.m.

[davidclt]

On 7/16/2021 at 9:38 AM, tozmervo said:

Just caught this in the latest CDOT Street Use Notice. I think we can all agree that it would be super weird to have this event and not have the streetcar open yet.

August 7, 2021: CATS CityLYNX Gold Line Community Events
This event is to thank the community, residents, and businesses for their support of the cityLYNX Gold Line Streetcar Phase II Project.

The events will be held at three locations:

Trade Street between Brevard Street and the entrance to the bus station (westbound lanes only)
Trade Street between Montgomery Street and S. Bruns Ave. (eastbound lanes only)
Elizabeth Ave. between Travis Street and Hawthorne Ave. (eastbound lanes only)
Events hours are 11:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Lanes will close at 5:00 a.m. and reopen at 6:30 p.m.

Run little car!

[kermit]

CBJ on Phase 3 of the Gold Line. The article also confirms an “August” opening date for Phase 2.

Quote

Charlotte Area Transit System CEO John Lewis said the final route plan won’t be completed until the summer of 2023. The latest forecasts moved the estimated finish date for the Gold Line to 2033 from 2030.

A big roadblock, as always, is funding. But the phase 3 plan brings particular challenges. Some or all of the last legs will run on transit-specific right-of-way rather than tracks embedded in the road. 

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2021/07/23/streetcar-phase-3-to-be-slow-train-coming.html

Edited July 25, 2021 by kermit

[buildleft]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

CBJ on Phase 3 of the Gold Line. The article also confirms the August open date for Phase 2.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2021/07/23/streetcar-phase-3-to-be-slow-train-coming.html

Two whole years for a *route plan*? Isn't the line straight down Beatties Ford and Central? The incompetence at CATS will never cease to amaze me

[CLT2014]

5 minutes ago, buildleft said:

Two whole years for a *route plan*? Isn't the line straight down Beatties Ford and Central? The incompetence at CATS will never cease to amaze me

No, they are going to acquire land and build it on a designated right-of way on the east side of the line, essentially operating as light rail. If it was running down Central, it would have to crawl too slowly in faster moving traffic that hits 45+mph to be safe. Nobody is going to tolerate sitting on a train moving 30 mph while traffic flies by. They know they need the right-of-way and faster speeds to be competitive against alternative transport options. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by CLT2014

[buildleft]

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

No, they are going to acquire land and build it on a designated right-of way on the east side of the line, essentially operating as light rail. If it was running down Central, it would have to crawl too slowly in faster moving traffic that hits 45+mph to be safe. Nobody is going to tolerate sitting on a train moving 30 mph while traffic flies by. They know they need the right-of-way and faster speeds to be competitive against alternative transport options. 

The line could have its own ROW in the median and avoid the costly acquisition process altogether. And if the city actually wants to boost transit as a policy goal, then it should be fine with making central a two lane road.

Even with the more complex acquisition process, it shouldn't necessarily take this long. Plenty of peer cities in other parts of the world do it faster (and for less money). In Montreal, the 42 mi automated light metro project REM was proposed in 2016 and started construction in 2018. Yes, there were land acquisitions involved. The line will open in phases between next year and 2024. In Seattle, Northgate Link had a design process that was slightly shorter in length than our timeline, despite being significantly more complicated and entirely underground/elevated. Surely our problems can't all be fixed overnight, but all I'm saying is that it's possible to have an expedited process for a not-so-large project (the eastern extension is only 4 miles). When $650+ million are being spent on a few thousand daily riders, we should start to question the choices being made on transit spending and administration.

Also, it doesn't inspire much confidence that Lewis said it will act "more like a commuter rail than a streetcar".  It should definitely have an exclusive ROW, but it obviously won't be "like" commuter rail at all. And it's disheartening that our transit leaders won't stop prioritizing the 9-5 commuter, because this does not represent most transit riders and certainly will not on the Gold Line. 

[KJHburg]

View from the Charlotte Post about opening of the streetcar to west Charlotte.

Riding streetcar to revival – or ruin – of historically Black neighborhoods (thecharlottepost.com)

 

[JacksonH]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

View from the Charlotte Post about opening of the streetcar to west Charlotte.

Riding streetcar to revival – or ruin – of historically Black neighborhoods (thecharlottepost.com)

 

Near the beginning of the article it states that "residents are concerned longtime homeowners and businesses could be forced out due to gentrification."  I didn't get how homeowners could be "forced out."  Then I read this further down in the article, now I get it:

"If the area undergoes the kind of economic boom that came to neighborhoods in the north and south along the Blue Line, the worry is that it will raise property values and lower-income homeowners will not be able to keep pace.

'I’ve lived in Wesley Heights since 1997,' Forrest said. “I’ve been paying my mortgage and the home is mine, and I went from a tax bill that was barely $1,000 to this recent property evaluation that the county has done, and my tax bill was over $3,000 …'"

So that's it:  property values skyrocket and along with that so do property taxes.  I guess the reason that didn't immediately occur to me is that here in California we have a law dating back to the late '70s -- "Proposition 13" -- that protects homeowners from property tax escalations.  Under this law, property taxes cannot go up more than 3% in a single year, in spite of what has happened to the property value.  I bought my house in 2010 in a neighborhood that has gone through some radical gentrification.  The value has literally doubled during this time, but my property taxes have not had a significant change.  The only thing that had an impact was in 2013 when I had some renovations done to add a bathroom.  Property values will be reassessed if an upgrade like that is made to the house (i e., new rooms are added), but that is the only circumstance under which a reassessment can happen.  Otherwise, the property value is forever capped (other than an escalation of no more than 3%), unless the house gets renovated OR sold.  So if I sell my house, the next owner will be paying a whole lot more taxes than I do because their taxes will be based on THEIR purchase price.  But then their taxes will forever be capped at no more than 3% in a year unless they do a major renovation.

This law, while not perfect, has been very, very popular because it has protected homeowners against the very thing West End residents are worried about.  That said, I was annoyed when I got curious about a big mansion in my neighborhood, with swimming pool and tennis courts, and found out that, because the same owners have been there since the '70s, they pay less property taxes than I do on my little house!  So not a perfect law, but it does protect people.  With property values rising so quickly in Charlotte and Raleigh and other places, perhaps NC needs something like this.

 

 

[KJHburg]

NC does offer for those over 65 and in a lower income bracket a 50% decrease in assessed value.  This helps but can't help everyone of course.  SC does re-evaluate their properties when sold.  However even this causes disparities as new home buyers bear more of the property taxes than someone who has lived in their homes for 10 years or more.  But I think long term homeowners is certain neighborhoods should get a bigger break on their property taxe and maybe recapture it when the property is sold.  For example a house currently valued at 200K 5 years ago and now worth $350K is still taxed on the lower levels unless sold then the differences could be paid.    It is a complicated problem for sure. 

[Hushpuppy321]

Does anyone know if CATS is proposing the same type of deal with JCSU, CPCC and J&W that it has with UNCC for a Tuition Transportation Surcharge ($50) to help support the Goldline?

[CLT2014]

27 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Does anyone know if CATS is proposing the same type of deal with JCSU, CPCC and J&W that it has with UNCC for a Tuition Transportation Surcharge ($50) to help support the Goldline?

Honestly hate dumping a fee on students just because they are captive and forced to pay something just to go to school. It doesn't seem like much, but for a student who might be working a part time job to help pay for school, that could be a half-day of work for something they might not need or ever use. I'd be much more in favor of a reduced pass being offered to students who want / need it. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by CLT2014

[tozmervo]

I think the other campuses have reduced-fare cards available for purchase by students.

[Merthecat]

If I recall correctly, CPCC did a survey 2-3 years ago gauging interest in such a thing.  However, I never heard any results and I'm not a student there anymore so I don't know what the school's position is.

[JacksonH]

5 hours ago, Merthecat said:

If I recall correctly, CPCC did a survey 2-3 years ago gauging interest in such a thing.  However, I never heard any results and I'm not a student there anymore so I don't know what the school's position is.

Yes, and here's a link to a CPCC blog where they posted a couple times in 2019 about taking the survey, but I see no follow-up about the results.

http://blogs.cpcc.edu/cpcctoday/tag/cats/

[Third Strike]

On 7/23/2021 at 6:34 PM, buildleft said:

The line could have its own ROW in the median and avoid the costly acquisition process altogether. And if the city actually wants to boost transit as a policy goal, then it should be fine with making central a two lane road.

Even with the more complex acquisition process, it shouldn't necessarily take this long. Plenty of peer cities in other parts of the world do it faster (and for less money). In Montreal, the 42 mi automated light metro project REM was proposed in 2016 and started construction in 2018. Yes, there were land acquisitions involved. The line will open in phases between next year and 2024. In Seattle, Northgate Link had a design process that was slightly shorter in length than our timeline, despite being significantly more complicated and entirely underground/elevated. Surely our problems can't all be fixed overnight, but all I'm saying is that it's possible to have an expedited process for a not-so-large project (the eastern extension is only 4 miles). When $650+ million are being spent on a few thousand daily riders, we should start to question the choices being made on transit spending and administration.

Also, it doesn't inspire much confidence that Lewis said it will act "more like a commuter rail than a streetcar".  It should definitely have an exclusive ROW, but it obviously won't be "like" commuter rail at all. And it's disheartening that our transit leaders won't stop prioritizing the 9-5 commuter, because this does not represent most transit riders and certainly will not on the Gold Line. 

Running the Gold Line down the middle of Central (similar to the Blue Line running down North Tryon) seems like the only viable option for this corridor. Carving out a new ROW in this area would be extremely expensive and would also likely run into neighborhood opposition. CATS should definitely consider road dieting Central to help with the cost of acquiring land. 
 

My takeaway from Lewis’ comments about operating more similar to commuter rail makes me think there will be less stations on the Gold Line the further it goes out. After the Gold Line passes through Plaza Midwood, it should operate more like a traditional light rail, with dedicated ROW, and stations more further apart. Go a step further and extent it pass Eastland, onto Albemarle Road, and run it out to the current bus hub on Albemarle/Lawyers. Maybe even further out to 485, as that area is exploding in growth and could also pickup commuters traveling from Carbarrus and Stanly counties. 
 

The same could be true for the north-end of the line. Make it essentially a light rail after crossing I-85, and run it up to Northlake. Maybe even further to downtown Huntersville, if that’s feasible. 

[kermit]

On 7/16/2021 at 9:38 AM, tozmervo said:

Just caught this in the latest CDOT Street Use Notice. I think we can all agree that it would be super weird to have this event and not have the streetcar open yet.

August 7, 2021: CATS CityLYNX Gold Line Community Events
This event is to thank the community, residents, and businesses for their support of the cityLYNX Gold Line Streetcar Phase II Project.

The events will be held at three locations:

Trade Street between Brevard Street and the entrance to the bus station (westbound lanes only)
Trade Street between Montgomery Street and S. Bruns Ave. (eastbound lanes only)
Elizabeth Ave. between Travis Street and Hawthorne Ave. (eastbound lanes only)
Events hours are 11:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Lanes will close at 5:00 a.m. and reopen at 6:30 p.m.

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by kermit

[kermit]

So I really want to ride the Gold Line to an Independence Game. I decided to take a ride along it and I found:

• Only one station (Burns ave) has glass windbreaks installed (top photo)
• No stations have ticket vending machines (its not even clear where they will be mounted)
• It did not appear that there was any lighting on any platform east of Gateway village
• Several stations (incl Davidson st) had damaged railings (people had driven into them). (this is just off the frame in the second photo)

Towards French st there was some sign of active work on the platforms, one contractor crew was seen working on the French st station (but not installing glass), there were some trashbags at  a few other westend stations. I saw enough vehicle testing while I was on Elizabeth on Tuesday night to feel like the vehicles and track is working OK, but it does seem like the platforms are the primary hold up.

In short, CATS's contractors "have a long way to go, and a short time to get there" (gold star and possibly a beer to the first to identify that movie reference). The line might open before the end of the month, but I would bet it will be fare free for a while (we already know that CATS has bad luck with TVMs). 
 

Edit: are the TVMs in the vehicles?

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by kermit

[DownEast]

Thanks for the update "Snowman." Jackie Gleason's lines are some of my favorite of all time. It's "Smoky and the Bandit."

Edited August 7, 2021 by DownEast

[KJHburg]

From Joe Bruno on Twitter

Joe Bruno
@JoeBrunoWSOC9
Per CATS, the following work still needs to be completed for the streetcar:

•    Sidewalk work
•    Completion of hand rails, ramps and the platforms  
•    Minor roadway work 

CATS is also completing standard safety and security certifications.

Opening date on/before 8/31
 

[kermit]

The three replica streetcars that were unreliably used on Phase 1 have been sold to Memphis, they were shipped out earlier this month.

It sounds like the two original (not replicas) cars sound like they will be put to use in Belmont (Gaston co) on the P&N spur from downtown to 29.