Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[TGIBridays]

On 8/31/2021 at 2:22 PM, CLT> said:

The pantograph has been down for quite a few of  the cars way outside  of the Poplar-College stretch where there is no overhead wire. Any idea what the vehicle's range is on battery power alone?

Apparently it's just over 15 miles. https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/59859-longest-distance-travelled-by-a-battery-powered-tram-single-charge-in-24-hours

[RANYC]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

So is the suggestion here that potential riders  will just decide to run 7 minute miles instead of riding? At what point will the GL be considered a success by this metric, when it beats 4 minute milers?

I guess these stories do their job as clickbait, and they are entertaining but they really don’t tell us much about the actual transit. They really could have developed their signal-priority throw away sentence into something useful.

Uh, I think they're using exaggeration as a rhetorical device to make a point about the convenience and utility of the Gold Line.  It's a whimsical periodical that often takes such liberties.  I suppose it's not for such literal readers.  You don't have to agree with the implication, but again it's just hyperbole. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by RANYC

[TheMightyBK]

View from Baltimore- the light rail here is woefully underutilized and rightfully vilified for this very reason- it takes FOREVER to get anywhere on it. It rolls slowly and has too many stops to make it an efficient method of transportation, at least for commuters. Drivers hate it because it blocks intersections…those 2 factors alone means those drivers will never even consider using it. If you’re on a leisurely day trip, sure, but in a day-to-day life that’s go-go-go it’s just not a great choice. I want to like it, but my car is a WAY faster way to get around and goes all the places light rail doesn’t. [emoji2371]


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[Yeahdoug]

Sitting at sunnyside rn. Been waiting for the train to move out of the turn around spot going on 30 mins now… 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Yeahdoug

[jednc]

1 hour ago, Yeahdoug said:

Sitting at sunnyside rn. Been waiting for the train to move out of the turn around spot going on 30 mins now… 

I rode tonight for the first time. I didn't have time to go from end to end so I started at Tryon and rode to Sunnyside. Had to get off of the train of course at the end. Not sure we waited even 15 minutes. If it was a full 15, it certainly didn't seem like it. The return trip to Tryon seemed to go faster. I think we hit a few more red lights on the way out than on the way back. Overall a good experience.

[TGIBridays]

13 hours ago, TheMightyBK said:

View from Baltimore- the light rail here is woefully underutilized and rightfully vilified for this very reason- it takes FOREVER to get anywhere on it. It rolls slowly and has too many stops to make it an efficient method of transportation, at least for commuters. Drivers hate it because it blocks intersections…those 2 factors alone means those drivers will never even consider using it. If you’re on a leisurely day trip, sure, but in a day-to-day life that’s go-go-go it’s just not a great choice. I want to like it, but my car is a WAY faster way to get around and goes all the places light rail doesn’t.

Yeah, all this talk makes me hope that grade separation is a priority for the Silver Line at least for a majority of the alignment.   Obviously the street car isn't really meant to be a fast transportation method.  It should be reliable and frequent (things it sounds like they may need to work on).

[Yeahdoug]

9 hours ago, jednc said:

I rode tonight for the first time. I didn't have time to go from end to end so I started at Tryon and rode to Sunnyside. Had to get off of the train of course at the end. Not sure we waited even 15 minutes. If it was a full 15, it certainly didn't seem like it. The return trip to Tryon seemed to go faster. I think we hit a few more red lights on the way out than on the way back. Overall a good experience.

I can’t seem to catch the timing right. On our way to plaza it was pulling away as we got to the stop. Waiting 20 mins for the next one. On the way home there must have been some separation issues. It was in the turn around for 30 mins and then we had a “separation timing adjustment” wait at CTC for 10 mins. Over all about 75 mins to go sunnyside to gateway at 10 pm last night lol Even free right now I’m not sure it’s worth it. Just takes so much time. 

 

we were also the only ones on the train both ways. 6 pm and 10 pm 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Yeahdoug

[CLT2014]

The current frequencies and slow times make this novel for transit enthusiasts and for some white collar workers, but for so many users, being late is VERY BAD. Nobody from Novant Health is riding this thing, despite THOUSANDS working at the hospital (and they aren't working from home due to the pandemic). Hospitals are very rigid and shift based... you can't be 25 minutes late to work like Bank of America white-collar office workers that can stroll in with schedule flexibility. CPCC students have the same problem. Class starts at a certain time... you can't be late. Without a schedule or improved frequency.... how could a nurse plan on getting to work for their 7AM shift? Leave for work at 5:45AM on the Blue line and leave a 40 minute buffer for the last 2 miles to work from the CTC to Novant? People don't have time for that. 

This then creates a "bad look." Because the frequency at launch is bad.... Novant Health employees look at the train as unreliable. They hear experiences from their coworkers that spent 40 minutes getting from Wesley Heights to the hospital. This results in "What? 40 minutes to cross Uptown? I drove all the way from Concord in 35 minutes." This then creates a reputation problem that will make "winning" Novant shift employees over to the Gold Line more challenging if CATS ever does improve the frequency to 5 minutes so that a hospital worker could actually use it. 

Also.... winter is coming fast. We are going to be approaching 30 - 50 degree mornings. Waiting around 20 minutes in the cold because you just missed the train is not going to be fun. The choice users will go back to their Toyota 4Runner with heated seats. We already made the investment to build this.... CATS needs to improve frequency ASAP.

Edited September 10, 2021 by CLT2014

[JRCLT]

CATS and City are not doing what they can to make Transit more appealing and that is a shame. I am sure there are people that would love to take transit but the headway’s and the speeds and lack of priority is severely lacking. If Charlotte wants to be a sustainable city it needs to push as many people as possible to take transit as option over the car. CATS has one concentration…and that’s transit. Unlike the city of Charlotte which has to worry about many other things aside from transit. CATS should be responsible for improving this mode of transit and making it attractive for riders. It’s like they aren’t even trying and the lack of transparency behind projects and such has worsened that outlook imo.

[15895]

40 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

CATS and City are not doing what they can to make Transit more appealing and that is a shame. I am sure there are people that would love to take transit but the headway’s and the speeds and lack of priority is severely lacking. If Charlotte wants to be a sustainable city it needs to push as many people as possible to take transit as option over the car. CATS has one concentration…and that’s transit. Unlike the city of Charlotte which has to worry about many other things aside from transit. CATS should be responsible for improving this mode of transit and making it attractive for riders. It’s like they aren’t even trying and the lack of transparency behind projects and such has worsened that outlook imo.

It is frustrating to voice these real complaints when you are a transit advocate & I am personally a little transit nerd and don’t mind mass transit taking longer in some cases & then have people get annoyed you’re complaining about it. 
 

if I lived in SouthEnd along the blue line & worked at Novant- I wouldn’t take the blue & gold. I think even with traffic, you’d probably save 35-45 minutes each way? From door to door. 
 

DC & Atlanta streetcars are the same. I rode the DC streetcar once in 4 years. It’s way more convenient to scooter, bike, walk, literally anything. So maybe it’s just a streetcar thing but I feel like dedicated lanes are the solution! 

 

16 hours ago, TheMightyBK said:

View from Baltimore- the light rail here is woefully underutilized and rightfully vilified for this very reason- it takes FOREVER to get anywhere on it. It rolls slowly and has too many stops to make it an efficient method of transportation, at least for commuters. Drivers hate it because it blocks intersections…those 2 factors alone means those drivers will never even consider using it. If you’re on a leisurely day trip, sure, but in a day-to-day life that’s go-go-go it’s just not a great choice. I want to like it, but my car is a WAY faster way to get around and goes all the places light rail doesn’t.


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Doesn’t Baltimore run in the streets and follow traffic signals in areas? 

[cltbwimob]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Doesn’t Baltimore run in the streets and follow traffic signals in areas? 

Yes.  It runs in-street on Howard St from just a few blocks north of Camden Yards until the area of MLK Jr Blvd just South of 83 and Penn Station.  
 
Baltimore Light Rail has a lot of problems, but I think one of its biggest issues is that the cars are old, dirty and klunky.  Definitely not the Siemens S70s like we have here.  Also, IIRC the few times I’ve ridden it, the frequencies were terrible.   
 

Edit:  I think the frequencies were maybe terrible for the Pen Station Shuttle.  But the fact that they didn’t connect the main trunk line to Penn Station is another problem.

Edited September 10, 2021 by cltbwimob

[15895]

6 minutes ago, cltbwimob said:

Yes.  It runs in-street on Howard St from just a few blocks north of Camden Yards until the area of MLK Jr Blvd just South of 83 and Penn Station.  
 
Baltimore Light Rail has a lot of problems, but I think one of its biggest issues is that the cars are old, dirty and klunky.  Definitely not the Siemens S70s like we have here.  Also, IIRC the few times I’ve ridden it, the frequencies were terrible.   
 

Edit:  I think the frequencies were may just be terrible for the Pen Station Shuttle.  But the fact that they didn’t connect the main trunk line to Penn Station is another problem.

That’s actually why I never rode the light rail. It doesn’t connect to Penn. I’d visit Baltimore a little more if Penn were better connected to the light rail/closer to the harbor (because I take MARC to Penn and it starts to become a pain to do so much just to grab a beer around the harbor) 
 

Moral of story... frequency, convenience and good routings make a difference. 

[go_vertical]

The city and CATS are handing opponents to this so much fuel to add to their fires. Honestly, without dedicated ROW (or at the very least signal prioritization) street cars built like this are more for heavy tourist areas where a percentage of riders are in more in a casual mode. 

If they don't figure something out soon this is going to be seen as a failure for the foreseeable future. There are limited TOD opportunities along the current stretch with Novant, CPCC, and the edge of the government district skirting it. 

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

It's a shame too bc this area has sooo much potential.  It could be a very cool strolling district if there were more shops, restaurants, & bars lining the length of Elizbeth on both sides from the hospital to CPCC.

[Third Strike]

3 hours ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

It's a shame too bc this area has sooo much potential.  It could be a very cool strolling district if there were more shops, restaurants, & bars lining the length of Elizbeth on both sides from the hospital to CPCC.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t there a single company holding many of these parcels along Elizabeth, hostage? Similar to the Levine situation in First Ward? I want to say Grubb but I’m not completely sure. I remember hearing about a mixed-use development being proposed somewhere along this stretch, but I believe it’s been years since an update. I also remember Whole Foods was rumored in this area, years before the Uptown location came to fruition. 

[TheRealClayton]

13 minutes ago, Third Strike said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t there a single company holding many of these parcels along Elizabeth, hostage? Similar to the Levine situation in First Ward? I want to say Grubb but I’m not completely sure. I remember hearing about a mixed-use development being proposed somewhere along this stretch, but I believe it’s been years since an update. I also remember Whole Foods was rumored in this area, years before the Uptown location came to fruition. 

Its the hospital. Grubb was just their master developer, I don't believe they are any longer.

[jednc]

8 hours ago, Yeahdoug said:

I can’t seem to catch the timing right. On our way to plaza it was pulling away as we got to the stop. Waiting 20 mins for the next one. On the way home there must have been some separation issues. It was in the turn around for 30 mins and then we had a “separation timing adjustment” wait at CTC for 10 mins. Over all about 75 mins to go sunnyside to gateway at 10 pm last night lol Even free right now I’m not sure it’s worth it. Just takes so much time. 

 

we were also the only ones on the train both ways. 6 pm and 10 pm 

That would certainly make me not want to ride again. Cats has got to do better.

[nakers2]

I often referenced my mom's home city of Antwerp, Belgium and their extensive tram (streetcar) network. (Sidenote that Google refers to the Gold Line as a tram line) Comparing it to our network here in Charlotte, I think the most stark differences are the speed and frequency, as mentioned before. But I also think we are missing another thing, density and scale. From the southernmost terminal in the Port of Antwerp, to the city's beltway, it is only 2.6 miles. The entire Gold line currently is 4.0 miles. The streets in Antwerp are tight and winding, making it difficult for bus drivers to maneuver, but by having single and "bendy" streetcars, specifically measured and set on tracks, the trams can go *much* faster. In the case of a double parked car, this would impede a bus too due to the narrowness. If the trams back up, then they just ride in tandem until the end of the line. I think Charlotte would've been better served by electric buses in dedicated lanes, they could've bought dozens of them for the same price and had incredible frequency. Or, the city should've had the streetcar wind down side roads, not down a major thoroughfare. Very few trams in Europe use main roads without dedicated ROW, only sharing the street with traffic down side streets, sometimes, as mentioned above, only as wide as the tram itself.  

[TheMightyBK]

Makes one wonder if CATS consulted with engineers from European or Asian countries, where things are done so efficiently. If they want to fix their problems they’d be well served to talk to people in places where the systems work as they should. [emoji2371]


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[hinsp0]

15 hours ago, TheRealClayton said:

Its the hospital. Grubb was just their master developer, I don't believe they are any longer.

Novant is land-banking to maintain options for “keeping up with the Jones’s”, who maintain a more impressive campus on Blythe Blvd. and will soon control even more of the corridor across morehead where the new clinics are opening and the med school campus and research labs will go.  
 

If Novant is going to partner with UNC to bring a satellite school or more of its clinical teaching programs to the area, it’ll need as much property in the Elizabeth Avenue corridor as possible.
 

 It’s just a shame to see what was once Elizabeth’s East Blvd continue to sit in such an underutilized condition.  Would be really awesome to see a pivot from the old Grubb “European-Style Village” concept to a medical teaching, clinics, and offices village concept with retail and dining accessible, from first floor street fronts. 

[Third Strike]

The Gold Line made me curious on the other streetcar project that’s taking place in the region: the Belmont streetcar. Looks like the project is still active and is in the process of acquiring two historic vehicles from Charlotte. 
 

https://www.wfae.org/business/2021-08-09/gastons-belmont-may-be-the-next-stop-for-charlottes-historic-trolley-cars

https://belmonttrolley.org

 

 

[videtur quam contuor]

Best of luck to them with maintenance. Those old cars have no NOS parts (that I am aware of) and need full time mechanics to nurse them. The knowledge base was lost decades ago.

[Madison Parkitect]

On 9/11/2021 at 10:33 AM, Third Strike said:

The Gold Line made me curious on the other streetcar project that’s taking place in the region: the Belmont streetcar. Looks like the project is still active and is in the process of acquiring two historic vehicles from Charlotte. 
 

https://www.wfae.org/business/2021-08-09/gastons-belmont-may-be-the-next-stop-for-charlottes-historic-trolley-cars

https://belmonttrolley.org

 

 

I'm on the Historic Landmarks Commission and in our meeting last month (the one the article references) we voted to lease Car 1 to Belmont for this project, so if they're able to move forward with the project they'll at least be able to use the car the HLC owns.

[TGIBridays]

Apparently CATS staffing issues are making the already terrible Gold Line frequency even worse. 

"Due to operator constraints, CityLYNX Gold Line is currently operating on a 40-minute schedule. We apologize for any inconvenience."  - https://twitter.com/CATSRideTransit/status/1437562799832633350?s=20

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by TGIBridays

[CLT2014]

35 minutes ago, TGIBridays said:

Apparently CATS staffing issues are making the already terrible Gold Line frequency even worse. 

"Due to operator constraints, CityLYNX Gold Line is currently operating on a 40-minute schedule. We apologize for any inconvenience."  - https://twitter.com/CATSRideTransit/status/1437562799832633350?s=20

Why bother running it at all? Do we need to in order to keep the Federal funding? 

Drive time right now from Charlotte to Statesville: 41 miles, 40 minutes
Max time right now to ride a train a maximum of 4 miles: 40 minute wait + 25 minute ride time = 65 minutes

Hopefully this is just temporary. If they have constraints for operators.... why are there no job postings for that role on the city website? There are a couple of other CATS roles posted, but none for a rail operator. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by CLT2014