Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[krazeeboi]

Any discussion of politics in this thread should be explicitly related to the streetcar project or mass transit in general. Any discussion about President Obama's performance needs to be taken to the Coffee House.

[kermit]

I drove down the streetcar route from Eastland to Elizabeth this morning (I am rarely on the eastside). I was struck by how much potential there is in this area for some really nice TOD once the streetcar is running. I was also frustrated by the vagueness of streetcar funding beyond the starter segment. Given this I thought a useful first step in this area would be for the city to paint the streetcar 'tracks' on the road along the length of the route.

While this may sound like a trivial (or even silly) suggestion it would accomplish a couple of things. First, homebuyers, potential entrepreneurs and developers can easily see where the tracks will be -- thus channeling development to the corridor and thus help give the densification process a nudge (ultimately improving ridership). Second, the visibility of the "tracks" might help get the public more solidly behind the project (which is largely invisible to the vast majority) thus encouraging our leadership to 'find' funding (perhaps in the form of TIF or municipal service district).

I am sure there are many state and federal road safety regulations which would prevent this, but otherwise it seems like such an easy (and cheap) step in the development of transit that it would be a shame to waste the opportunity.

EDIT: Has the city done the preliminary engineering on the streetcar / CSX crossing on Central just after Hawthorne?

Edit Edit: Thanks archiham04, that makes more sense.

Edited May 21, 2011 by kermit

[archiham04]

^ I don't think the streetcar will be crossing CSX. The last I heard it will be going under (along Hawthorne) and around Barnhardt Manufacturing.

[caterpillar2]

. Whether you agree that these structures have been "delivered" is the fundamental problem; just the fact that they have been addressed and processed is enough to show me that they are being delivered. My disgust disillusionment comes from the right, who's push-back is not allowing these structures to be "delivered." How is it possible to claim these things are not "delivered," when so many have done so much to stop the delivery from happening? How can anyone argue about lack of results when there has been no fair chance for systems to get into place?

I simply wanted to clarify your unexplained point. It seems to me that believing that the issues which you mentioned "have been addressed and processed (whatever processed is supposed to mean)" and not materialized is like going through the kitchen cabinets, making a grocer list, telling your spouse that you are going shopping. But instead, you throw away the list and goi to the pub to throw darts.

No matter who is president or what party is in office, things that don't make sense, are not neccessary or affordable will generally not become laws or mandates and therefore idle promises shouldn't be made. . I do wish for mass transportation in the area. And, it is possible to claim that things "are not delivered" when they do not materialize. I guess that this old right wing system of democracy which allows the majority to rule should be abandined? Best wishes.

Edited June 2, 2011 by caterpillar2

[caterpillar2]

You have spent a great deal of time on this site and often offered great insight on what has been posted, it seems clear that you follow many of the discussions here. Given that, do you honestly believe that the only thing North Carolina gains from this 400 million is a 13 minute reduction in trip time?

The capacity additions look pretty substantial to me (and much cheaper than the alternative of widening I-85), as does the groundwork for Gateway station and the red line.

I am much more concerned with developing Gateway station and the Red Line. If these are actually funded and work will actually begin, I support any finding we can get.

[dubone]

The difference is that the Red line only will serve 4000 riders per day because the long distance means they have very little capacity for riders, and the commuters are only usually twice a day. The streetcar runs through the densest population section of the entire region, which has already proven to be a transit-riding population. Put that together with data of further urbanization/densification generated by a line like this, and the equally priced projects stack up considerably in favor of the streetcar.

The national trends are toward light rail and streetcar and away from commuter rail, which is primarily a factor (as in Charlotte) because of the political power of the suburbs rather than the efficacy of the infrastructure.

[kermit]

Good news, the delay was making me very nervous in this political climate.

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood will announce the official launch of the Charlotte streetcar project at Central Piedmont Community College today.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/09/19/2622170/lahood-to-announce-launch-of-streetcar.html#ixzz1YPgFZfYk

[krazeeboi]

Great to hear!

[ah59396]

What kind of economic development should we expect to see from a line like this? Are there any examples of successful lines in place that have been recently built where a streetcar line has spurred development?

I'm just curious. I'm all for rail, but a streetcar line with no additional ROW gives a lot of people a reason to complain, especially if no real growth results from its development.

[Norm2]

In the economic climate who knows if there will be development along the line or not. There would be a higher chance of economic development for a streetcar line than a bus line because the streetcar line is fixed on rails and the route can not be changed. Where as a bus route can be changed at any time, and they have changed quite a bit over the years. I am not sure of examples of any other cities that have economic examples of development along street car lines. Maybe someone else can chime in with this information.

[kermit]

While the evidence is not entirely clear yet it does appear that the Seattle South Lake Union Streetcar (aka S L U T) has catalyzed a considerable amount of development.

Charlotte's starter segment is not well selected for maximizing new development. Ultimately the streetcar is about increasing circulation (e.g. short trips) within downtown and between downtown and its adjacent neighborhoods -- making downtown, five points, elizabeth and central avenue more like a single neighborhood. Once this is accomplished more people will be willing to get out of their cars and live more urban lifestyles.

[ah59396]

Well let's hope this isn't an ugly example of poor transit planning for us. I live in that area and cringe at the thought of seeing an empty $50 million streetcar riding back and forth down Trade St. If we want to give the anti-mass transit people out there ammo, I have a bad feeling this may be it. We wont get those "look at how great this is" type numbers we saw from the LRT out of this line, which will make it difficult to justify moving forward.

Again, I want it to happen, but I also know the reality of politics and hype in transit planning.

[southslider]

Charlotte's starter segment is not well selected for maximizing new development.

There appear to be multiple vacant and underutilized blocks either side of Elizabeth Avenue between Charlottetowne Avenue and Hawthorne Lane. This area is all part of a master-planned, mixed-use, new development, called "Elizabeth Village."

All successful streetcars in the US paired redevelopment areas with existing destinations. In Portland, you have both the University and the Pearl District connected to the CBD. In Charlotte, you will have destinations like CPCC and Presby connected to the CBD, as well as Elizabeth Village.

I suggest any critic of the starter route actually walk it and ride it (Gold Rush and multiple bus routes). The Gold Rush and buses are very full (of riders). And the blocks of Elizabeth Village are very ripe (for development). In all, this route strikes a good balance for both immediate and sustained success.

[kermit]

I suggest any critic of the starter route actually walk it and ride it (Gold Rush and multiple bus routes). The Gold Rush and buses are very full (of riders). And the blocks of Elizabeth Village are very ripe (for development). In all, this route strikes a good balance for both immediate and sustained success.

Fair enough, I'll belatedly admit that I don't spend much time on Elizabeth ave. My mental image of it is that it is fully developed (even though I know that there are many empty storefronts and vacant lots behind the first row of stores). My image of the intown stretch of the line is one filled with government buildings and little else -- again not reflective of reality. The great advantage of all of this is a ready made source of ridership. Thanks for helping me see this.

[HopHead]

I'm usually not a pessimist, but I fail to see how this 1.5 mile starter line for a streetcar will generate all the investment and jobs (~400??) that they claim it will. To me it doesn't have the power that the Light Rail line has shown. I think the money invested could be used better elsewhere, such as expanding the Gold Rush service or towards the BLE extension (yea, I know it's a drop in the bucket for BLE work and is considered to be in a different pocket of funds but I'm speaking more in principal). I'd hate to see the anti-mass transit bunch get any ammo when the light rail has generally been a rousing success.

[southslider]

^Rail critics will criticize no matter what, as they continually have, even after South Corridor's success.

Often overlooked, the collective bus routes already serving CPCC today have a transit-vehicle frequency that far exceeds the LYNX line. The 9-Central bus, by itself, is more frequent than the Blue Line. However, CPCC is additionally served by the 27-Monroe, 14-Providence, 15-Randolph, 20-Sharon, and 39-Eastway. If not streetcar, this corridor already has the transit demand to support an upgrade to Sprinter buses, articulated buses or other capacity enhancements. And yet if worried about ridership (since all of these carry passengers beyond Presby), one need only look to the recent success of extending the Gold Rush to Presby.

Of course, the huge plus of streetcar, over other warranted transit improvements, is development. But even when talking development, South Corridor hasn't exactly seen much outside a comparable segment in South End, where station spacing mirrors streetcar (indeed replacing a trolley on this segment).

So again, this starter project makes sense, both in terms of transportation needs (existing ridership already there), as well as return on investment (development area comparable to South End). If anything, I worry more about finding a comparable segment for the next phase of streetcar to repeat this starter segment's ensured success.

[dubone]

I agree there certainly should be enough ridership to not be an embarrassment, as there should be enough people connecting from the hospital, CPCC, and Met Midtown to the Lynx, bus system and simply going to uptown. I worry though that either they will have to set the precedence of it being free in this zone, or else risk losing many riders over the current Gold Rush, which goes farther west and is free. I don't know that they will let this be free, although they ought to.

[Norm2]

If it is not going to free, then the transit system needs to charge a significantly reduced fare for the streetcar since the line is so short. the fare should not be the normal bus or train fare until the line is much longer.

[cltbwimob]

I think someone here brought up the idea of running the trolley west of downtown along the old P&N line.

http://nakedcityblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/charlotte-trolley-to-roll-through-new.html

[New Name]

If this line were to be built, it would be very similar to Boston's Ashmont-Mattapan extension.

The Mattapan trolley is an extension of one leg of Boston's Red Line that sends an historic electric trolley down a former freight ROW. It goes through an historic neighborhood alongside a greenway too.

Here's a cool video:

[thetrick]

I think someone here brought up the idea of running the trolley west of downtown along the old P&N line.

http://nakedcityblog...hrough-new.html

Only about 1 mile of track could be available to them as CSX is still serving industrial customers on the old P&N line. But 1 mile is better than no miles and could be a catalyst for something larger.

[kermit]

Does anyone have a link to the streetcar construction timeline? I swore that I saw the city say construction would begin this year but I can't find the source for that.

If it is scheduled to begin construction this year I would like to get it added to the list of projects for 2012 at the Transportation Politic .

[tozmervo]

It starts Q1 of 2013 (I had the same thought re: Transport Politic)

[kermit]

^ gezzz, why do they keep pushing it? Wasn't the grant from 2.5 years ago? Isn't all the cash in place?

(whining aside, thanks for the update)

[tozmervo]

Well, I've seen a couple of media types reference December 2012 as the start date for construction. I can't find anything conclusive, though.