Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[JacksonH]

I was in Charlotte early last week, back home now.  Last Monday I was driving behind a west-bound Gold Line train starting from just before Presbyterian Hospital and up to almost the CTC.  I clocked the train at speeds between 10 mph and 25 mph, when it wasn't stopped.  That's not terrible, but it also isn't rapid transit.  Someone recently expressed dismay that the Gold Line isn't included on the station maps inside the Blue Line trains.  I have to ask why on earth it would be a good idea to include the Gold Line on those maps given that the Gold Line isn't rapid transit like the Blue Line.  If you're going to include the Gold Line you may as well also include route maps for buses as buses move faster than the Gold Line trains.  Only if and until CATS decides to create designated lanes for Gold Line trains should it be shown on the maps inside the Blue Line train.

 

Edit to acknowledge a comment from tozmervo that the issue of designated lanes is the responsibility of CDOT, not CATS.

Edited October 25, 2021 by JacksonH

[LKN704]

19 hours ago, JacksonH said:

I was in Charlotte early last week, back home now.  Last Monday I was driving behind a west-bound Gold Line train starting from just before Presbyterian Hospital and up to almost the CTC.  I clocked the train at speeds between 10 mph and 25 mph, when it wasn't stopped.  That's not terrible, but it also isn't rapid transit.  Someone recently expressed dismay that the Gold Line isn't included on the station maps inside the Blue Line trains.  I have to ask why on earth it would be a good idea to include the Gold Line on those maps given that the Gold Line isn't rapid transit like the Blue Line.  If you're going to include the Gold Line you may as well also include route maps for buses as buses move faster than the Gold Line trains.  Only if and until CATS decides to create designated lanes for Gold Line trains should it be shown on the maps inside the Blue Line train.

 

Edit to acknowledge a comment from tozmervo that the issue of designated lanes is the responsibility of CDOT, not CATS.

I respectfully disagree. 

The purpose of having a unified branding strategy between the light rail and the streetcar is to symbolize connectivity between the two systems and to make it clear that both the Blue and Gold Lines are both part of a singular transit system. Other transit agencies that operate both streetcar and another mode of rail transit (be it heavy or light rail), like Portland and Salt Lake City include both on their rail system map. Rail is rail, and the average person who doesn't have a transit knowledge will likely not distinguish between the two modes. People in Boston still call the Green Line the "subway" or the "T" as with the rest of the system, despite the fact that the majority of the Green Line operates in traffic. The automated announcement system onboard the NYC Subway calls out when transfers to Select Bus Service (NYC's enhanced bus service) despite the fact that one is transferring to a bus. If you want a comprehensive transit system, you have to note connectivity. 

The fact that Charlotte hasn't implemented an actual "system" map is crazy. Does the automated announcement system in place onboard note the connection opportunity to the Blue/Gold Line? 

[southslider]

11 hours ago, LKN704 said:

If you want a comprehensive transit system, you have to note connectivity. 

If you don't even design for ridership, it's hard to operate any transit, much less a system.

[Spartan]

On 10/25/2021 at 7:35 PM, JacksonH said:

I was in Charlotte early last week, back home now.  Last Monday I was driving behind a west-bound Gold Line train starting from just before Presbyterian Hospital and up to almost the CTC.  I clocked the train at speeds between 10 mph and 25 mph, when it wasn't stopped.  That's not terrible, but it also isn't rapid transit.  Someone recently expressed dismay that the Gold Line isn't included on the station maps inside the Blue Line trains.  I have to ask why on earth it would be a good idea to include the Gold Line on those maps given that the Gold Line isn't rapid transit like the Blue Line.  If you're going to include the Gold Line you may as well also include route maps for buses as buses move faster than the Gold Line trains.  Only if and until CATS decides to create designated lanes for Gold Line trains should it be shown on the maps inside the Blue Line train.

 

Edit to acknowledge a comment from tozmervo that the issue of designated lanes is the responsibility of CDOT, not CATS.

CDOT and CATS would be on board if you could convince all of the hotels and businesses along Trade Street that they don't need driveway access to their buildings.

[southslider]

5 hours ago, Spartan said:

CDOT and CATS would be on board if you could convince all of the hotels and businesses along Trade Street that they don't need driveway access to their buildings.

If CDOT could convince parking decks on 5th and 6th Streets to live with a cycle track, then traffic changes Uptown are possible. Besides, Trade Street could still be open to driveways, just not through traffic traveling multiple blocks.

[tozmervo]

11 hours ago, Spartan said:

CDOT and CATS would be on board if you could convince all of the hotels and businesses along Trade Street that they don't need driveway access to their buildings.

Honestly I don't think you'd even have to close the whole street to cars, just the streetcar lane. That gets complicated between Church & College where the rail is curb adjacent and not in the median, but I think could still be feasible. I don't know how to do it up on Elizabeth, though. My sense is that the on-street parking needs removed completely and that will go a long way to resolving the challenges. 

[CLT2014]

Would a dedicated lane really improve the speed? Most of the time there is nothing in front of the street car as it crawls at 15 miles per hour and cars are lined up behind it in a row. It takes 30 minutes to cross town on a Sunday at 9AM when Uptown is basically a ghost town with no cars in the way.... still crawling at 8 - 15 mph. It seems like the operators have been given a very low speed limit cap. Buses also operate in mixed traffic and they at least hit 25 - 30 miles per hour on many roads.

If traffic was truly the problem, cars would also take 30 minutes to cross Uptown on a Sunday at 9AM.... but we all know that cars don't drive 15 mph which is why they complete the exact same route in half the time (unless they get stuck behind a Gold Line train going 8mph).

Edited October 29, 2021 by CLT2014

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

Would a dedicated lane really improve the speed? Most of the time there is nothing in front of the street car as it crawls at 15 miles per hour and cars are lined up behind it in a row. It takes 30 minutes to cross town on a Sunday at 9AM when Uptown is basically a ghost town with no cars in the way.... still crawling at 8 - 15 mph. It seems like the operators have been given a very low speed limit cap. Buses also operate in mixed traffic and they at least hit 25 - 30 miles per hour on many roads.

If traffic was truly the problem, cars would also take 30 minutes to cross Uptown on a Sunday at 9AM.... but we all know that cars don't drive 15 mph which is why they complete the exact same route in half the time (unless they get stuck behind a Gold Line train going 8mph).

The other key is certainly getting signal priority, and I don't know what heads need beaten to make that happen. I'm also not sure what considerations there are for allowing the streetcar to pass stations without stopping. Do other streetcar systems have tap-to-stop, or make all stops? 

[TheRealClayton]

55 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

The other key is certainly getting signal priority, and I don't know what heads need beaten to make that happen. I'm also not sure what considerations there are for allowing the streetcar to pass stations without stopping. Do other streetcar systems have tap-to-stop, or make all stops? 

I've ridden 6 times now, and 4 of the times there was a shift change at CTC that took almost as much time as the idle time at the end of the line. The fastest was 5 min wait for conductor change, the longest was TWELVE.

[15895]

5 hours ago, TheRealClayton said:

I've ridden 6 times now, and 4 of the times there was a shift change at CTC that took almost as much time as the idle time at the end of the line. The fastest was 5 min wait for conductor change, the longest was TWELVE.

It’s always something with a streetcar (in mixed traffic.) It’s always a long affair. Out of curiosity, do you plan on continuing to ride it or are you over it? Do you have a limit on how many more negative experiences before you just stop using it?

6 hours ago, tozmervo said:

The other key is certainly getting signal priority, and I don't know what heads need beaten to make that happen. I'm also not sure what considerations there are for allowing the streetcar to pass stations without stopping. Do other streetcar systems have tap-to-stop, or make all stops? 

I’m pretty sure DC Streetcar is tap-to-go. I’ve only ridden once and attempted twice in 4 years. Literally every form of transportation is faster than streetcar in DC it feels. Scooter, Bikeshare, Uber, Walking, etc. 

I hear the Atlanta Streetcar is awfully slow too. 

5 hours ago, TheRealClayton said:

I've ridden 6 times now, and 4 of the times there was a shift change at CTC that took almost as much time as the idle time at the end of the line. The fastest was 5 min wait for conductor change, the longest was TWELV

Edited October 29, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[TGIBridays]

CATS/the city is going to start towing cars parked on the streecar tracks.

 https://twitter.com/CATSRideTransit/status/1454547158917603330?t=Nr7kqbRNA8L0mFp7grwsaw&s=19

 

If the policy was to not tow, then that's an improvement. I still like the idea of using the cameras to fine vehicles, but they also need to remove the vehicles. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by TGIBridays

[Madison Parkitect]

2 hours ago, TGIBridays said:

CATS/the city is going to start towing cars parked on the streecar tracks.

 https://twitter.com/CATSRideTransit/status/1454547158917603330?t=Nr7kqbRNA8L0mFp7grwsaw&s=19

 

If the policy was to not tow, then that's an improvement. I still like the idea of using the cameras to fine vehicles, but they also need to remove the vehicles. 

Unless they've got a tow truck just following the street car around, it seems like this is kind of pointless too. Say there's a car parked on the tracks, so a street car comes up on it and then calls for a tow. Then the tow truck takes, what, 30 minutes to get there? Maybe more? By that time the whole line is backed up and the person blocking the tracks has probably moved their car. So then the tow trucks get the call that the car isn't there anymore so they head back to the garage. Rinse and repeat all day long.

[KJHburg]

They CATS can have a tow truck willing to tow or move any vehicle on the stretch and it would not take 30 minutes.  Maybe 5 have them cruising up and down the street and no tolerance if someone jumps out of a car to run in somewhere tow it.  This happens for a week and this behavior will be greatly reduced.  Make a big media event out of it.  

[KJHburg]

seems it has happened.  a streetcar and car collided looks like Hawthorne Lane.

Photo from twitter

[Yeahdoug]

Smart traffic lights would go a long way to making this thing faster. It blows my mind that all the uptown traffic lights are purely time based. There’s no reason the streetcar should have to stop at an empty light in the middle of the night. It should be changing before it gets there. 

On 11/1/2021 at 8:58 AM, KJHburg said:

seems it has happened.  a streetcar and car collided looks like Hawthorne Lane.

Photo from twitter

Pop a new lower valance on that baby and good as new. 

[kermit]

WTF?

Edited November 7, 2021 by kermit

[CLT2014]

^This is why everybody wants a car in this town. Folks with cars can get from Plaza Midwood to Wesley Heights in 8 minutes this morning. People waiting on the streetcar might get there in one hour and 30 minutes.... might as well walk. Only good thing is very few people are riding the streetcar anyhow, so amount of actual impacted users is low.

CATS must address operational reliability if they want voters to trust them with billions more in tax dollars. The streetcar issues are not a good look.

Edited November 7, 2021 by CLT2014

[southslider]

At this rate, City voters will soon distrust CATS as much as Town voters already do, all in time for a new referendum. Heck of a job, John Lewis.

[davidclt]

On 11/4/2021 at 4:14 PM, Yeahdoug said:

Smart traffic lights would go a long way to making this thing faster. It blows my mind that all the uptown traffic lights are purely time based. There’s no reason the streetcar should have to stop at an empty light in the middle of the night. It should be changing before it gets there. 

Pop a new lower valance on that baby and good as new. 

"Maybe the loops are broken" - CDOT any time anyone questions the really poor timing of traffic signals in this town.

I'll rant here about the call to bring back the speed and red light cameras (and I say of of this as an avid pedestrian and advocate of transit): CDOT should look for more of a carrot approach before bringing out the speed and red light camera sticks again. We supposedly have a sophisticated traffic light and traffic management system in Charlotte. I see no evidence of that. CDOT gets very defensive when anyone questions their engineering of the system (maybe sensors are out, etc.).

[stiluvclt]

I flew into Charlotte for a quick visit a few weeks ago. I had planned to park my rental at a park and ride lot on Woodlawn so I could ride the Blue Line but there was not one single car in the parking lot and I didn't feel like leaving a car that I was responsible for in that unguarded, empty lot (and it was a weekday). SO I drove downtown with the same plan for the streetcar. Well, instead of riding on the streetcar I just drove the route. After 10 minutes of crawling behind the streetcar I got out of that long slow line and just drove the route myself. The streetcar looks ultra modern and the route is certainly capable of attracting riders i.e. JCSU, CPCC, Square, Gov. Center, Novart, but the lack of priority to the streetcar makes it seem a very safe ride at Carowinds that people use when they want to avoid a daredevil ride. I wish the city luck in improving this dilemma but it's gonna be an uphill solution.

[CLT2014]

54 minutes ago, stiluvclt said:

I flew into Charlotte for a quick visit a few weeks ago. I had planned to park my rental at a park and ride lot on Woodlawn so I could ride the Blue Line but there was not one single car in the parking lot and I didn't feel like leaving a car that I was responsible for in that unguarded, empty lot (and it was a weekday). SO I drove downtown with the same plan for the streetcar. Well, instead of riding on the streetcar I just drove the route. After 10 minutes of crawling behind the streetcar I got out of that long slow line and just drove the route myself. The streetcar looks ultra modern and the route is certainly capable of attracting riders i.e. JCSU, CPCC, Square, Gov. Center, Novart, but the lack of priority to the streetcar makes it seem a very safe ride at Carowinds that people use when they want to avoid a daredevil ride. I wish the city luck in improving this dilemma but it's gonna be an uphill solution.

The operators need to increase the speed too. Buses don't have signal priority and operate in mixed traffic as well. The bus drivers don't drive like a ride at Disney World though... they hit the gas and get that baby up to 35 mph in between lights.

I've compared  the Route 1 and Route 7 bus line to the Street Car for getting from the CTC to Johnson C Smith a few times. The route 1 bus typically PASSES the street car on the multi-lane portion of Trade Street because the bus isn't moving insanely slow. It is pretty consistently 6 - 10 minutes from CTC to Rozzelles Ferry/Trade on the Route 1 or Route 7.  The Street Car is taking 13 - 15 minutes to do the same route consistently while you watch the bus fly by you (let alone the cars and bike riders passing you).

Add in Route 1 and Route 7 overlap to provide frequency roughly every 15 minutes and the only reason to take the Gold Line is if you have spare time on your hands or really need to cross town and don't own a car. Even if you do need to cross town from Plaza Midwood to Johnson C Smith, you can save about 10 minutes by sticking with a bus connection at the CTC... because even with a connection buses move faster to make up the time. 

The good thing for the community is this area has some of the better bus service in the city, so users who aren't scared of buses can get to where they need to go relatively efficiently without relying on the Gold Line crawling on Trade.

Edited November 8, 2021 by CLT2014

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, davidclt said:

"Maybe the loops are broken" - CDOT any time anyone questions the really poor timing of traffic signals in this town.

I'll rant here about the call to bring back the speed and red light cameras (and I say of of this as an avid pedestrian and advocate of transit): CDOT should look for more of a carrot approach before bringing out the speed and red light camera sticks again. We supposedly have a sophisticated traffic light and traffic management system in Charlotte. I see no evidence of that. CDOT gets very defensive when anyone questions their engineering of the system (maybe sensors are out, etc.).

I just read this verbatim in the Ledger and momentarily thought I was losing my mind 

[TGIBridays]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

The operators need to increase the speed too. Buses don't have signal priority and operate in mixed traffic as well. The bus drivers don't drive like a ride at Disney World though... they hit the gas and get that baby up to 35 mph in between lights.

According to the Siemens fact sheet (page 18 here), the top speed for the gold line vehicles is 25 mph.  Which seems super slow and other users said they saw the cars testing on the blue line at faster speeds, so my thought was that maybe the 25 limit is just on battery?  Regardless, the streetcar might not be able to go much faster. 

[tozmervo]

Not for nothing, but the speed limit on the route is actually 25 MPH for most of the route. It is 30 once you get past 77 toward JC Smith and on Hawthorne. 

[davidclt]

8 hours ago, tozmervo said:

I just read this verbatim in the Ledger and momentarily thought I was losing my mind 

I guess I should have said I was plagiarizing myself.