Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[Yeahdoug]

On 11/8/2021 at 9:52 AM, davidclt said:

"Maybe the loops are broken" - CDOT any time anyone questions the really poor timing of traffic signals in this town.

I'll rant here about the call to bring back the speed and red light cameras (and I say of of this as an avid pedestrian and advocate of transit): CDOT should look for more of a carrot approach before bringing out the speed and red light camera sticks again. We supposedly have a sophisticated traffic light and traffic management system in Charlotte. I see no evidence of that. CDOT gets very defensive when anyone questions their engineering of the system (maybe sensors are out, etc.).

I can’t remember who it was, but the person in charge of Charlotte’s traffic light system, specifically uptown, was on Charlotte talks last year. They were very clear that most of the traffics signals in uptown are “dumb”. They work purely off time. The only thing they change to make it “smart” is vary the timing depending on the time of day. They can sync them to change together or offset one another, but very few have sensor loops in the ground to actually sense a vehicle. It’s really stupid that early in the morning I’m having to stop on trade for a light changing for no reason lol. 
 

Also related to this are a lot of the new pedestrian signals say. “For audio signal only” or something like that. I don’t think they have any influence on the signal changing. Just whether or not the machine gun sounds are used. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Yeahdoug

[davidclt]

36 minutes ago, Yeahdoug said:

I can’t remember who it was, but the person in charge of Charlotte’s traffic light system, specifically uptown, was on Charlotte talks last year. They were very clear that most of the traffics signals in uptown are “dumb”. They work purely off time. The only thing they change to make it “smart” is vary the timing depending on the time of day. They can sync them to change together or offset one another, but very few have sensor loops in the ground to actually sense a vehicle. It’s really stupid that early in the morning I’m having to stop on trade for a light changing for no reason lol. 
 

Also related to this are a lot of the new pedestrian signals say. “For audio signal only” or something like that. I don’t think they have any influence on the signal changing. Just whether or not the machine gun sounds are used. 

A Trifling Place, Episode 7: Turn Green Already! | WFAE 90.7 - Charlotte's NPR News Source

How can you avoid hitting back-to-back red lights in Charlotte? | WFAE 90.7 - Charlotte's NPR News Source

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, Yeahdoug said:

I can’t remember who it was, but the person in charge of Charlotte’s traffic light system, specifically uptown, was on Charlotte talks last year. They were very clear that most of the traffics signals in uptown are “dumb”. They work purely off time. The only thing they change to make it “smart” is vary the timing depending on the time of day. They can sync them to change together or offset one another, but very few have sensor loops in the ground to actually sense a vehicle. It’s really stupid that early in the morning I’m having to stop on trade for a light changing for no reason lol. 
 

Also related to this are a lot of the new pedestrian signals say. “For audio signal only” or something like that. I don’t think they have any influence on the signal changing. Just whether or not the machine gun sounds are used. 

The ped signals in Uptown are all automatic, meaning that you don't have to use the beg button. To comply with ADA, they provide the buttons so hard of sight individuals can know when to cross. 

[ajfunder]

On 11/8/2021 at 7:53 AM, CLT2014 said:

The operators need to increase the speed too. Buses don't have signal priority and operate in mixed traffic as well. The bus drivers don't drive like a ride at Disney World though... they hit the gas and get that baby up to 35 mph in between lights.

I've compared  the Route 1 and Route 7 bus line to the Street Car for getting from the CTC to Johnson C Smith a few times. The route 1 bus typically PASSES the street car on the multi-lane portion of Trade Street because the bus isn't moving insanely slow. It is pretty consistently 6 - 10 minutes from CTC to Rozzelles Ferry/Trade on the Route 1 or Route 7.  The Street Car is taking 13 - 15 minutes to do the same route consistently while you watch the bus fly by you (let alone the cars and bike riders passing you).

Add in Route 1 and Route 7 overlap to provide frequency roughly every 15 minutes and the only reason to take the Gold Line is if you have spare time on your hands or really need to cross town and don't own a car. Even if you do need to cross town from Plaza Midwood to Johnson C Smith, you can save about 10 minutes by sticking with a bus connection at the CTC... because even with a connection buses move faster to make up the time. 

The good thing for the community is this area has some of the better bus service in the city, so users who aren't scared of buses can get to where they need to go relatively efficiently without relying on the Gold Line crawling on Trade.

This is very true. You ride streetcars in cities with more established system and the operators run their vehicles with purpose. The CATS operators are quite conservative compared to their peers in KC, Portland, and Seattle. 

The CATS operators also seem to stop at the hint of yellow (crosswalk signal is sub 5 seconds). Other systems I have been on, the operator punches it at the hint of yellow and acts like they are the king of the road. Don't even get me going on the stuff operators pull on systems I have been on in Rome, Milan, and Helsinki.

It doesn't do a ton connection wise but one of the best streetcar experiences in the US is the Tacoma Link in my opinion. It operates with signal priority which helps it move smoothly and consistently through town and also has some dedicated raised median sections which work quite well. Even the mixed traffic sections flow well with the signal preemption.

[Yeahdoug]

13 hours ago, tozmervo said:

The ped signals in Uptown are all automatic, meaning that you don't have to use the beg button. To comply with ADA, they provide the buttons so hard of sight individuals can know when to cross. 

Yeah that’s what I mean. The button doesn’t really influence the traffic signal. No need to hit it unless you need the audio. 

[nakers2]

12 hours ago, ajfunder said:

This is very true. You ride streetcars in cities with more established system and the operators run their vehicles with purpose. The CATS operators are quite conservative compared to their peers in KC, Portland, and Seattle. 

The CATS operators also seem to stop at the hint of yellow (crosswalk signal is sub 5 seconds). Other systems I have been on, the operator punches it at the hint of yellow and acts like they are the king of the road. Don't even get me going on the stuff operators pull on systems I have been on in Rome, Milan, and Helsinki.

It doesn't do a ton connection wise but one of the best streetcar experiences in the US is the Tacoma Link in my opinion. It operates with signal priority which helps it move smoothly and consistently through town and also has some dedicated raised median sections which work quite well. Even the mixed traffic sections flow well with the signal preemption.

The light rail operators seem to have this mindset too, rode with my girlfriend up to UNCC the other day and the pace they crawl into these stations in annoying, and I know it's operator preference because on the return trip our guy was hauling ass. I know they have certain "blocks" but you can provide a smooth transition through these versus a herkey, jerkey motion that makes the otherwise modern looking system feel like a cattle car being shunted in the railyard. At this point I'm curious if it's clueless management getting onto operators about speed and braking. I considered taking a job at CATS because I am qualified to operate the streetcar and light rail vehicles per my Class-A CDL, but I feel as though I'd be called out for actually operating them as intended. I haven't ridden the south line in a hot min, but I remember they eventually got it right and it is exceedingly more enjoyable. 

[kermit]

Your moment of Zen for today:

How can a streetcar that runs without a schedule or vehicle tracking be slightly delayed?

To paraphrase Yoda: Run or don’t run. There is no delay.

 

[CLT2014]

Everybody that boards the bus bridge: "Wow, this is so much faster. Why don't they just run buses all the time? It even has this amazing capability to drive around obstacles! REVOLUTIONARY"

Edited November 18, 2021 by CLT2014

[tarhoosier]

Trolley #85 story triggered by post just now on South End High Rise thread and better placed here.

I was motorman for #85 from 2001 to 2004 when work on the light rail bed put us out of operation. I ran it again in 2007 for demonstration purposes and testing of blue line on one weekend. This episode I recall did not happen to me but to two other members of the volunteers. The trolley operated weekends, Friday 5-9 pm and Sat-Sun 9-5 (I think). One frigid Friday winter night the temperature was well below freezing, coldest day of the year. The operator stayed in the trolley barn to keep warm and left the trolley without power for an hour or two awaiting passengers and not expecting any. This is the current Atherton Legion location. Then a few arrived for a journey to Morehead Street and return. The trolley, as with all rail vehicles with air brakes had an evaporator in the system. When in operation the evaporator eliminates any moisture in the braking system, the piston and lines and couplings, so that no freezing can occur. The trolley having sat for an extended time then pulled out of Atherton toward the Tremont crossing. Recall there were no arms and signals. A conductor or off duty police dismounted and stopped traffic at intersections. As the trolley slowly accelerated to Tremont the operator activated the brake and...nothing happened. The trolley then continued straight through the intersection without anyone to stop traffic since it was moving. It continued downhill until it reached the bottom of that slight grade across from the Nebel mill then rolled toward East but ever so slowly came to a halt and then slowly rolled back down to the nadir. This pendulum movement continued two or three times until it came to a stop at the bottom of the hill. The air brake piston had frozen to the cylinder and air could not be moved through the brake system, thus no brake power. This is why evaporators are necessary. A radio call to Atherton resolved with the suggestion to put the trolley in power toward the barn with short, small bursts of power, something like in and out of gear on an automobile. When it was close to the trolley barn they did not attempt to put it into the barn for the night as usual because of the limited control but set chocks on the wheels and closed operation for the night. 

Edit: #85 has an emergency brake but it is like that of an automobile. It is mechanical and meant to hold stable a stopped vehicle and not to bring a moving vehicle to a controlled stop.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by tarhoosier

[NYtoCLT]

Just walked the route hoping to hop on a train as it came by.  Walked from Trade and Tryon to Hawthorne and 8th and no train ever passed me.  Was curious how long it would take.  Waited another 11 minutes before one finally came.  I take it occasionally but it is SOOO inconsistent, it would be impossible to regularly rely on.

[KJHburg]

I am going to say this in my out loud voice:  further expansion of this streetcar needs to be abandoned and replaced with Bus Rapid Transit.  One of the BRT stops could be at either end of the existing line.   What I would propose is that the BRT stops at each end of the line and then continues to the CTC nonstop thus making the existing line the uptown local.  Then in east Charlotte extend  BRT line down Central out Albemarle.  on the north end where the last stop of the streetcar is at French St start BRT north down Beatties Ford Rd all the way to Northlake Mall.  When the BRT reaches the end of the existing endpoints run the BRT nonstop uptown.   That is my idea.  

Edited November 27, 2021 by KJHburg

[buildleft]

Before total abandonment, I would like to see decent service provided by CATS/CDOT. Because if that isn't possible, good BRT also would not be possible. If consistent 10-minute service with dedicated lanes and signal priority still can't fix things, then I agree BRT is the only viable way forward.

[ajfunder]

6 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I am going to say this in my out loud voice:  further expansion of this streetcar needs to be abandoned and replaced with Bus Rapid Transit.  One of the BRT stops could be at either end of the existing line.   What I would propose is that the BRT stops at each end of the line and then continues to the CTC nonstop thus making the existing line the uptown local.  Then in east Charlotte extend  BRT line down Central out Albemarle.  on the north end where the last stop of the streetcar is at French St start BRT north down Beatties Ford Rd all the way to Northlake Mall.  When the BRT reaches the end of the existing endpoints run the BRT nonstop uptown.   That is my idea.  

There is so much wrong with how CATS is utilizing this system thus far. I don't think the towel can be thrown in until CATS starts treating this new multi-million dollar transportation tool seriously. Headways should be every 10 minutes, minimum. CATS should have bought more vehicles if it can't do this with what they bought, but they should be able to close the gap with the below:

There are at least a dozen intersections which should always be green for the streetcar. The streetcar has no business ever stopping at red lights at: E 5th, Myers, Alexander, Brevard, CTC, Tryon, Poplar, Pine, Cedar, Irwin and a few others. Personally I would like to see priority over all intersections, but stopping at a red light at say Myers or Alexander is just a absolute joke.

Also, I would like to see a pull chord/stop request system implemented for the majority of the stops. I have ridden systems with this and it saves a ton of time being able to bypass lesser used stops (Hawthorne & 5th, McDowell,  Davidson, etc.)

Lastly, the line needs to be extended to say Morningside on Central ASAP.  Pretty sure you could even do it offwire which saves a ton of cost. You have to make transit easy in this city for it to be utilized and Sunnyside is just a bit too far from the heart of Plaza Midwood in my opinion. It is also a bit "out of sight, out of mind" for most visitors to the Plaza neighborhood.

Rant over lol.

Edited November 27, 2021 by ajfunder

[deleted account]

7 hours ago, ajfunder said:

There is so much wrong with how CATS is utilizing this system thus far. I don't think the towel can be thrown in until CATS starts treating this new multi-million dollar transportation tool seriously. Headways should be every 10 minutes, minimum. CATS should have bought more vehicles if it can't do this with what they bought, but they should be able to close the gap with the below:

There are at least a dozen intersections which should always be green for the streetcar. The streetcar has no business ever stopping at red lights at: E 5th, Myers, Alexander, Brevard, CTC, Tryon, Poplar, Pine, Cedar, Irwin and a few others. Personally I would like to see priority over all intersections, but stopping at a red light at say Myers or Alexander is just a absolute joke.

Also, I would like to see a pull chord/stop request system implemented for the majority of the stops. I have ridden systems with this and it saves a ton of time being able to bypass lesser used stops (Hawthorne & 5th, McDowell,  Davidson, etc.)

Lastly, the line needs to be extended to say Morningside on Central ASAP.  Pretty sure you could even do it offwire which saves a ton of cost. You have to make transit easy in this city for it to be utilized and Sunnyside is just a bit too far from the heart of Plaza Midwood in my opinion. It is also a bit "out of sight, out of mind" for most visitors to the Plaza neighborhood.

Rant over lol.

Anecdotally, I seem to see a streetcar every time I walk on Trade (so I'm surprised that the consensus is that they run too infrequently). That said, I agree 100% with your comments (possibly aside from extending the line in PM with urgency). Signal preemption is a no-brainer and utilizing pull cords is a great idea. Both would make this system work exponentially better and with little cost to CATS (unlike the mini expansion you proposed).

[tozmervo]

Meanwhile, in Belgium

https://mobile.twitter.com/BuitengebiedenB/status/1465320225881174023

[EllAyyDub]

Trams in mid-sized European cities astound me with how they just barrel through pedestrian plazas. I love it.  Specifically thinking of Bordeaux, which has built like 50 miles of highly used & efficient tram lines since 2000, but there are numerous other examples.

[deleted account]

Past 10 days has seen a lot of landscaping work on new line, including replacement of trees removed during construction and new plants/shrubs. Also, off topic here but a bunch of new trees recently planted between Tyvola and Polk on Little Sugar Creek Greenway...

[tozmervo]

Tis the season for installing new landscaping.

 

[Desert Power]

On 11/30/2021 at 10:46 AM, EllAyyDub said:

Trams in mid-sized European cities astound me with how they just barrel through pedestrian plazas. I love it.  Specifically thinking of Bordeaux, which has built like 50 miles of highly used & efficient tram lines since 2000, but there are numerous other examples.

It does make you have to keep your head on a swivel. These would run over so many dunk or oblivious people in Charlotte.

[pathb]

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2021-12-09/charlottes-streetcar-operating-off-schedule-more-than-half-of-the-100-days-its-been-open

[CLT2014]

25 minutes ago, pathb said:

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2021-12-09/charlottes-streetcar-operating-off-schedule-more-than-half-of-the-100-days-its-been-open

The Gold Line has averaged about 1,275 passenger trips on the average weekday.
https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/transit-time-a-rocky-start-for-charlottes

The delays are unfortunate, but luckily it doesn't really impact many people since the vast majority of people haven't shifting their previous commuting pattern to something less efficient and not reliable. It is a shame we spent all that money for such poor operations though.

Assuming usually roundtrip riders, only 637 people impacted a day or roughly 0.07% of the city's population, or roughly the amount of kids in an elementary school, or the upper level of the Knight Theater or the amount of people shopping inside one Costco right this minute.

Edited December 10, 2021 by CLT2014

[southslider]

^With every new project, reliability has declined on the CATS system. Blue Line Extension made what was once among the most reliable rail transit lines in the US a lot less reliable.   Now, Gold Line has made the full Charlotte LYNX system as unreliable as buses, especially now during the labor shortage, when many bus trips don't even run as promised.

John Lewis continues to oversee a blatant mess that few voters would ever want to reward with more of their tax dollars.

[JeanClt]

I think we need to understand why these lines have become unreliable. The reasons why the Gold Line is unreliable are quite obvious being in a ROW plagued by cars and dumb traffic lights. The BLE is different and most of the times I have rode the line it has been reliable. The 20 minute heads ways though are for whatever reason unknown to me other than the fact it was partly due to the pandemic. Someone care to explain some of those reasons in summary? I’d like to know more! (The labor shortage is one thing as well that I am aware of.)

[tozmervo]

2 hours ago, JeanClt said:

I think we need to understand why these lines have become unreliable. The reasons why the Gold Line is unreliable are quite obvious being in a ROW plagued by cars and dumb traffic lights. The BLE is different and most of the times I have rode the line it has been reliable. The 20 minute heads ways though are for whatever reason unknown to me other than the fact it was partly due to the pandemic. Someone care to explain some of those reasons in summary? I’d like to know more! (The labor shortage is one thing as well that I am aware of.)

To hear CATS tell it, labor shortage is the reason, not a reason.

[TGIBridays]

On 10/14/2021 at 7:26 AM, TGIBridays said:

Anyone know the reason there's still construction material on the Hawthorne bridge? It makes the bridge look pretty trashy, IMO. Are they still not finished with the bridge or did the contractor just leave without cleaning up the project?

Looks like they've FINALLY started cleaning this up.  All of the crap on the outbound side of the bridge have been removed and maybe half of the stuff on the inbound side is gone.  Looks so much better without the shredded black plastic and lumber hanging off the side.