Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[JRCLT]

Looks like they've FINALLY started cleaning this up.  All of the crap on the outbound side of the bridge have been removed and maybe half of the stuff on the inbound side is gone.  Looks so much better without the shredded black plastic and lumber hanging off the side.

Well technically construction hasn’t wrapped up yet…so I’m sure they were bound to do this eventually. Just because the line opened to passengers doesn’t mean the project was complete.

[TGIBridays]

17 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Well technically construction hasn’t wrapped up yet…so I’m sure they were bound to do this eventually. Just because the line opened to passengers doesn’t mean the project was complete.

That's what I was wondering.  Regardless, it's all taken down now and I'm happy.  Looks much nicer. 

[nakers2]

I live close to the streetcar line, they were hauling ass down Trade the other day, keeping pace with car traffic. Seems like they started hitting the boost.

[kermit]

CATS just can’t seem to get out of its own way.

The other reason the Streetcar will remain free is because CATS has not yet installed the new stored-value card system (necessary for Gold Line fare payment since the platforms and vehicles lack fare machines) that has been promised as ‘coming soon’ since late 2017.

And gezzus CATS, pay drivers the necessary market-clearing wage! There are no other solutions to the labor problem. Figure it out!

Edited January 3, 2022 by kermit

[go_vertical]

The people at CATS know damn well they have screwed this up big time.  I'm sure a labor shortage is playing some role in this, but they know the way they have rolled this out has made it undesirable for a majority of people that would use it and that absolutely nobody would ride if they had to pay.  Hell, the cars are 95% empty every time I see them now and it's free

 

[buildleft]

CATS has an operating budget of $189 million. Meanwhile, the transformational mobility network will invest over $13 *billion* in capital costs. Personally, I'd rather see the budget increased and forgo most TMN projects, at least until CATS gets their act together. With the cost of the TMN, their budget could be doubled for my entire lifetime.

Let's improve our bus network, get frequencies/reliability up, increase ridership, and ameliorate rider experience. We've already invested billions in rail, only to make it so infrequent and unreliable it loses any value it could've had. The city should figure out how to get costs down on new capital projects, and then build them after they provide basic, quality services (especially on key corridors).

A half-cent sales tax could go so much further (increase ridership/mile) on improving service and building some new, cheap bus infra than building an $8 billion rail line with <30k daily riders. The Gold line has really exemplified why CATS shouldn't be trusted with large sums of money to build new capital projects.

All of this is just personal opinion, coming from someone who really wants Charlotte to become a transit-accessible city 

[15895]

1 hour ago, buildleft said:

CATS has an operating budget of $189 million. Meanwhile, the transformational mobility network will invest over $13 *billion* in capital costs. Personally, I'd rather see the budget increased and forgo most TMN projects, at least until CATS gets their act together. With the cost of the TMN, their budget could be doubled for my entire lifetime.

Let's improve our bus network, get frequencies/reliability up, increase ridership, and ameliorate rider experience. We've already invested billions in rail, only to make it so infrequent and unreliable it loses any value it could've had. The city should figure out how to get costs down on new capital projects, and then build them after they provide basic, quality services (especially on key corridors).

A half-cent sales tax could go so much further (increase ridership/mile) on improving service and building some new, cheap bus infra than building an $8 billion rail line with <30k daily riders. The Gold line has really exemplified why CATS shouldn't be trusted with large sums of money to build new capital projects.

All of this is just personal opinion, coming from someone who really wants Charlotte to become a transit-accessible city 

“We’ve already invested billions in rail….” 
 

I think the reality is Charlotte has not invested near enough in rail transit. When you don’t properly invest in rail, it doesn’t work out. 
 

When you use streetcars to act as a light rail getting people into downtown with no dedicated lanes and not timed with the stop lights. It’s going to fail. 
 

The silver line is another debacle that seems like it will not reach its full potential within the system if there is not a good transfer station. Good transit is held hostage to an unrealistic vision that Mass transit should be profitable on fares alone (which we don’t hold other forms of transportation or things such as public libraries or schools etc to that standard. It’s mass transit, tf) 
 

Are people in Charlotte really supposed to just rely on the 19 Mile blue line? A good  rail system would have rapid transit (not commuter rail) that touches at least Ballantyne, South Park, Concord, Huntersville, Cornelius, Davidson, Mooresville, Gastonia, Belmont, Matthews & North Lake and maybe some other connections among them (such as Ballantyne being the terminus of the blue line AND another line to uptown via South Park) 

The buses are beyond not suitable for anyone able to buy a vehicle in Charlotte. It takes hours to do simple errands if you have to rely heavily on the buses and the pedestrian infrastructure sucks.

That said, The majority of Charlotteans may not support that, the state definitely won’t and so. The development in the city is going to reflect that as time goes on. And I guess the city should plan for urban sprawl and a few blocks of high dense nodes here and there and find out how best to get vehicles & people through the city without destroying the desirability. Which can be done. 

Edited January 3, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[Yeahdoug]

What’s the operating budget? Without a reliable wait time of 10 mins or less I can’t see this ever being used for commuting and pay fare.  At this point just eat the annual operating expense and sell it as an economic development tool for the west side, center city, and plaza. 

[buildleft]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

“We’ve already invested billions in rail….” 
 

I think the reality is Charlotte has not invested near enough in rail transit. When you don’t properly invest in rail, it doesn’t work out. 
 

When you use streetcars to act as a light rail getting people into downtown with no dedicated lanes and not timed with the stop lights. It’s going to fail. 
 

The silver line is another debacle that seems like it will not reach its full potential within the system if there is not a good transfer station. Good transit is held hostage to an unrealistic vision that Mass transit should be profitable on fares alone (which we don’t hold other forms of transportation or things such as public libraries or schools etc to that standard. It’s mass transit, tf) 
 

Are people in Charlotte really supposed to just rely on the 19 Mile blue line? A good  rail system would have rapid transit (not commuter rail) that touches at least Ballantyne, South Park, Concord, Huntersville, Cornelius, Davidson, Mooresville, Gastonia, Belmont, Matthews & North Lake and maybe some other connections among them (such as Ballantyne being the terminus of the blue line AND another line to uptown via South Park) 

The buses are beyond not suitable for anyone able to buy a vehicle in Charlotte. It takes hours to do simple errands if you have to rely heavily on the buses and the pedestrian infrastructure sucks.

That said, The majority of Charlotteans may not support that, the state definitely won’t and so. The development in the city is going to reflect that as time goes on. And I guess the city should plan for urban sprawl and a few blocks of high dense nodes here and there and find out how best to get vehicles & people through the city without destroying the desirability. Which can be done. 

"Are people in Charlotte really supposed to just rely on the 19 Mile blue line?"

No, of course not. Most people don't live near the line, but most people live near a bus route. Buses carry the vast majority of  transit riders in Charlotte and our spending should reflect that. Spending 60 years worth of CATS' operating budget on one very-low-ridership rail line will help very few of these people. Money is limited and it should be spent effectively (ridership/$ spent); investing in our existing network would solve a lot of the problems that cause people to avoid transit today... 

Transit's problems in Charlotte stem primarily from poor service and even worse land use. CATS can single handedly fix one of these problems.

The Gold Line is a fantastic example of this because the old Gold Rush shuttle bus was a much better service with higher ridership than the Gold Line now. $200 million down the drain. With very few dollars spent, the Gold Rush could have been transformed into a world-class transit service. Instead we have an utterly useless rail line.

As for popularity among the public, let me say that this is not the same city that elected Pat McCrory. Transit spending is relatively popular even among people who rarely or never take it.

[deleted account]

6 hours ago, buildleft said:

The Gold Line is a fantastic example of this because the old Gold Rush shuttle bus was a much better service with higher ridership than the Gold Line now. $200 million down the drain. With very few dollars spent, the Gold Rush could have been transformed into a world-class transit service. Instead we have an utterly useless rail line

If the Gold Line was primarily about moving the most people in the most economical way then you are correct. All of these lines are also intended as tools for redevelopment and it may be working in West Charlotte (though I wonder if it would be happening eventually regardless).  However one feels about rail transit (I'm a supporter), there seems to be broad consensus that the Gold Line, as currently operated, is a boondoggle. Many who support light rail (including me) opposed it. All of that said, I think it will be useful with tweaks once (if?) people return to work in Uptown. They definitely need signal preemption as the first tweak though, it shouldn't take longer to walk than ride the Gold Line. 

7 hours ago, Yeahdoug said:

What’s the operating budget? Without a reliable wait time of 10 mins or less I can’t see this ever being used for commuting and pay fare.  At this point just eat the annual operating expense and sell it as an economic development tool for the west side, center city, and plaza. 

This is probably the likely outcome and it's been popular in Kansas City (pre pandemic) as a free line. They will obviously see increased tax revenue on line adjacent properties, not enough to pay for it but enough to offset a portion of the costs.

Edited January 4, 2022 by JBS

[go_vertical]

An increase in CATS budget would be pointless until top management is replaced with people that will use that money wisely. 

[tozmervo]

11 hours ago, go_vertical said:

An increase in CATS budget would be pointless until top management is replaced with people that will use that money wisely. 

So what would you stop spending money on so they can increase salaries and boost staffing. 

[kermit]

6 hours ago, tozmervo said:

So what would you stop spending money on so they can increase salaries and boost staffing. 

Its tough for a non-specialist to say due to the separation of operating and capitol budgets and restrictions on how specific funds can be used. But, from my position as an uninformed observer I'll suggest that operations need to come before expansion. So... 

IMO any spending on expansion of services (including Silver Line and bus network redesign) should be put on hold until existing services are operated as originally planned.  As part of that decision CATS should tell the city that system expansion is a hostage that can only be released after a way to pay for increased operations labor costs has been found. Longer-term the CATS budget (allocations from the existing transit tax as well as any transfers from the city) need to be realigned to take higher labor costs into account, ignoring changes in the market rate for labor only dooms CATS to more operational failures.  This is a case where having unionized operators would help CATS maintain more consistent service.

[I say this as someone who believes its vital for our future  for Charlotte’s transit system to be an order of magnitude larger, but operations have got to come first when an organization is getting ready to ask for more. Voters will need to approve any transit expansion and the federal government will need to be satisfied that CATS will operate new service as they promised in grant applications. CATS is not currently satisfying either of these stakeholder groups.]

Edited January 4, 2022 by kermit

[Durhamite]

48 minutes ago, kermit said:

IMO any spending on expansion of services (including Silver Line and bus network redesign) should be put on hold until existing services are operated as originally planned.  As part of that decision CATS should approach the city to ask for help filling this gap. Longer-term the CATS budget needs to be realigned to take higher labor costs into account, ignoring changes in the market rate for labor only dooms CATS to operational failures.  This is a case where having unionized operators would help CATS maintain more consistent service.

[I say this as someone who believes its vital for our future  for Charlotte’s transit system to be an order of magnitude larger, but first things first. Voters will need to approve any transit expansion and the federal government will need to be satisfied that CATS will operate new service as they promised in grant applications. CATS is not currently satisfying either of these steakholder groups.]

Out of curiosity, what metrics are you using to rate CATs performance?  And what other grant winners have received gold stars to appease their stakeholders and the Feds.  Point is, CATs will never live up to most of those lofty unrealizable standards in grants, it’s impossible with all the unknown and unpredictable factors ranging from the economics, environment  and resources.  And neither will the gold stars.   Though a good “consultant” can make anybody look like a winner.

It seems you’re more  immersed in ideology than reality.  It will never operate as originally planned.  That plan was generated by a nest of ideological consultants to satisfy ridiculous demands in a grant, also written by consultants. I say count blessings and move forward. 

[go_vertical]

3 hours ago, tozmervo said:

So what would you stop spending money on so they can increase salaries and boost staffing. 

Nothing actually since what I was indirectly saying is that I don't think CATS budget should be increased.  Instead, I would prefer to see the money they already have used more effectively.  How?  I'm not sure as I don't know the inner workings of the agency.  I'm just an average citizen standing on the sidelines who feels like many other do in that the city's transit is broadly dropping the ball. 

[kermit]

6 hours ago, Durhamite said:

Out of curiosity, what metrics are you using to rate CATs performance?  And what other grant winners have received gold stars to appease their stakeholders and the Feds.  Point is, CATs will never live up to most of those lofty unrealizable standards in grants, it’s impossible with all the unknown and unpredictable factors ranging from the economics, environment  and resources.  And neither will the gold stars.   Though a good “consultant” can make anybody look like a winner.

I was using BLE frequency as my primary metric. CATS' FFGA application proposed to operate every 5 minutes at peak and every 7.5 minutes off peak -- CATS has never been able to pull that off. The ridership models relied on those frequencies for their projected ridership calculations which is a key element of project ratings. I am naive about how the FTA's keeps tabs on the performance of previous projects and the impact of those evaluations on future grant applications and I'll agree with you that that past project performance is probably irrelevant to FTA evaluations of current grants during pro-transit administrations,  but I'll also bet that any anti-transit politicians could easily lever agency poor past performance to get a grant denied in anti-urban and/or climate denying administrations.

Just last week the FTA threatened to require repayment of the $37.5 million grant they gave St. Louis for the Delmar Loop Trolley which was completed and operated briefly before being taken out of operation in December 2019. I do realize this example is an extreme one, and I am not suggesting that CATS is in this situation. But it the example does show that the FTA is aware of the performance of projects it has funded, gets updates on their performance on a quarterly basis, and expects that certain baselines of service are met. https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news/2021/12/27/federal-agency-threatens-loop-trolley-funds.html

I am less concerned about the FTA than the the opinion that local residents have about CATS since most of those folks are future transit tax voters. If the public feels like the frequencies of CATS service make transit unusable (I would argue that is the current case for the Gold Line), they they will be less likely to vote for system expansion -- something I am sure we agree is critical to Charlotte's future. 

I am a daily rider of the BLE and I am pretty tolerant of CATS' foibles. I have absolutely no desire to return to driving to work everyday so I very much want CATS to succeed. I know that CATS management is not to blame for current labor market conditions. However, their lack of response to those conditions is becoming a problem for riders, and that problem will (unfortunately) make expansion much more difficult than it needs to be. 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by kermit

[tozmervo]

They actually marched John Lewis out for the messaging on this one. CATSRideTransit on Twitter: "CATS will continue to operate fare-free streetcar service on the CityLYNX Gold Line through the new year. CATS staff is working diligently to hire and train additional rail operators. Thank you for riding with us. #RideCATS #Charlotte https://t.co/yYJaHRrpw3" / Twitter

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by tozmervo

[15895]

On 1/3/2022 at 4:04 PM, buildleft said:

"Are people in Charlotte really supposed to just rely on the 19 Mile blue line?"

No, of course not. Most people don't live near the line, but most people live near a bus route. Buses carry the vast majority of  transit riders in Charlotte and our spending should reflect that. Spending 60 years worth of CATS' operating budget on one very-low-ridership rail line will help very few of these people. Money is limited and it should be spent effectively (ridership/$ spent); investing in our existing network would solve a lot of the problems that cause people to avoid transit today... 

Transit's problems in Charlotte stem primarily from poor service and even worse land use. CATS can single handedly fix one of these problems.

The Gold Line is a fantastic example of this because the old Gold Rush shuttle bus was a much better service with higher ridership than the Gold Line now. $200 million down the drain. With very few dollars spent, the Gold Rush could have been transformed into a world-class transit service. Instead we have an utterly useless rail line.

As for popularity among the public, let me say that this is not the same city that elected Pat McCrory. Transit spending is relatively popular even among people who rarely or never take it.

I don’t pit Light Rail Vs. Bus Vs. Heavy Rail Vs. Commuter rail. They don’t really operate independently of each other.  When I (did & will again) take Heavy Rail from my home to the suburbs for work, I take a circulator bus from the metro station. Without the bus, I would drive.

If I need to go to Baltimore airport for a cheapo flight, I take heavy rail to a commuter rail line. When I want to go to a large indoor aquatic center, I take heavy rail then bike share from the station to the aquatic center. I could walk but that’s an entire 22 minutes versus 5 minutes on bikeshare in protected lanes per Google. I take heavy rail to streetcar (one as slow and short as Charlotte’s). Etc. If there weren’t such a combination - I’d own a car. 
 

Buses operate leagues better in a robust transit network than without it. It is painful to get around Mecklenburg county without a vehicle. Busses are not adequate. If Charlotte had more rapid rail transit and had some underground stations where necessary (to keep speed fast and get people where they needed to go) and there were lines to all the major towns and areas (like I said two lines to Ballantyne one being an extension from the blue line the other to uptown via SouthPark) and the other towns in Meck and edge cities, you could have bus stops at the rail stations. More people would opt to use buses, more people could get rid of their car and rely on transportation. I mean. South Park has no major access points and if Ballantyne and South Charlotte grows in population (because not everyone is 23 and wants to live in a stick built apartment in SouthEnd)… maybe a station along 485 helps relieve traffic…
 

Right now. If you’re poor in Charlotte, mass transit can be a hinderance to one’s success. Mass transit isn’t equitable for lower income people. Access to grocery stores, jobs, etc. are extremely difficult to reach by the bus system. The light rail makes certain trips so much better. For example Arrowood to Plaza Midwood (taking the bus to light rail and then transferring at CTC.) 

When I was a broke college student at UNCC, I lived in Coffee Creek & I lived near Huntersville Gateway Village (I had a car but tags were dead and I kept getting pulled over - too poor to afford to pay sales tax for updated tags). It is hell. It’s depressing. Trying to cross the street is embarrassing and I personally felt like a lesser person, sometimes you walk in GRASS by zooming cars, it takes mind numbingly long. Yeah, of course there are some bus routes that serve affluent folk who can say “oh, it’s not that bad! I take it sometimes for a baseball game!” You can’t enjoy the city! You can’t get groceries. You can’t go to the doctor or work without it being painful. 
 

So Charlotte is super, super heavily underinvested in transit and sometimes it builds things (gold line for example) that is  inadequate, isn’t enough & doesn’t do enough for enough people. The only way to increase transit in Charlotte is a whole lot more. Not just rail. Sidewalks. Floating islands for bus stops. Intersections need to be pedestrian friendly *everywhere* in the city. More dedicated bus lanes, future light rails need to be built right instead of cheap with solid connections. Wayyyy more protected bike lanes, more bike share, Protected bike lanes in SouthEnd despite the rail trail and light rail.

I know you’re likely not anti-transit nor have said anything to think you are, but it’s frustrating when transit is underinvested and then have people say “oh, well look how many people aren’t riding, it sucks, it’s slow”. Of course it sucks. Imagine if we took as long to build roads or lanes as we did transit and did it in a way where say 485 didn’t connected to I77 because it was too expensive to reconfigure the exits and people had to get off at Tryon and take Arrowood to I77. That’d be BS. That said, there is ZERO political will for transit to be that great in Charlotte but that is purely on the voters - not the merit of mass transit. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[JRCLT]

In summary what I got was… Charlotte is battle traffic, yet it faces issues and obstacles to effective transit by itself and mismanagement as well as outside forces such as the state that oppose transit policy in general because cities are not in their best interests. Not enough investment or out of the box thinking to solve transit in a diverse and multimodal fashion where other cities thrive comparatively. Charlotte pitifully lacks proactive measures to expand and improve its systems. Buses aren’t reliable and attractive because sometimes a station is simply a literal a sign on the grass.

Personally I have rode a bus twice. One to get to CTC and a transfer. This was a few years back, but I can still remember the painful walk to my final destination. More specifically I had to cross a street and the pedestrian access was awful (I mean at least it HAD a sidewalk). Finally getting to the store that I was going to I had to cross an awful parking lot. The design of shopping centers should really put the stores at the front and parking in the back. Not the other way around… I hope you can gather why I avoid taking the bus anywhere now. That day was a moment of necessity.

[KJHburg]

Meanwhile in town of Belmont there are plans afoot to bring a trolley from downtown Belmont to Belmont Abbey College including one on lease from Charlotte.  

Non-profit working to restore trolleys in Downtown Belmont (fox46.com)

[kayman]

On 1/3/2022 at 12:15 PM, kermit said:

CATS just can’t seem to get out of its own way.

The other reason the Streetcar will remain free is because CATS has not yet installed the new stored-value card system (necessary for Gold Line fare payment since the platforms and vehicles lack fare machines) that has been promised as ‘coming soon’ since late 2017.

And gezzus CATS, pay drivers the necessary market-clearing wage! There are no other solutions to the labor problem. Figure it out!

Insider info, the labor shortages in hiring rail operators is the real reason why the LYNX Gold Line is still free.  MTC (which is an agent of COC City Council) is so slow with the adoption that the new fare technology is going to adopt that. 

[TGIBridays]

Saw this on Reddit.  Which one of you made this?  

 

 

[deleted account]

2 hours ago, TGIBridays said:

Saw this on Reddit.  Which one of you made this?  

 

 

Thanks for posting. This guy obviously did an awesome job on his review and left me feeling more pro-streetcar than before I watched.

[rancenc]

Did not notice @JBS's posting of the same video until after the fact,,,,,unfortunately could not delete!

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by rancenc

[kermit]

Just reviewing the latest CATS quarterly report and I noticed one thing about Gold Line phase 2 that snuck past me. It appears that CATS had originally contracted for 7 vehicles for the GL, but they reduced that to 6 in September 2019 due to cost overruns. While the current service crappiness is certainly due to CATS' struggles getting drivers hired, future service frequency is gonna get constrained due to this decision.

(see page 34 of this document: https://charlottenc.gov/cats/Documents/2021-09-28_CATS_FTA_Quarterly_Report_Final.pdf )

Edited February 11, 2022 by kermit