Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[RANYC]

Charlotte bus driver shot in uptown on Friday just died.  Can’t help the hiring situation.  Anyone know what happened?

Edited February 13, 2022 by RANYC

[CLT2014]

4 hours ago, RANYC said:

Charlotte bus driver shot in uptown on Friday just died.  Can’t help the hiring situation.  Anyone know what happened?

Passengers reported a verbal altercation with another car at a red light before shots fired, so possibly road rage.

Edited February 13, 2022 by CLT2014

[Reverie39]

Some of the other threads are talking about how the urban core of Charlotte has had a lot of people + energy in recent weeks, probably from the feeling of springtime + decline of COVID. Reports that the Blue Line was overflowing last weekend. Anyone know of how the Gold Line is doing? Is it seeing more use now too?

[kermit]

Just now, Reverie39 said:

Some of the other threads are talking about how the urban core of Charlotte has had a lot of people + energy in recent weeks, probably from the feeling of springtime + decline of COVID. Reports that the Blue Line was overflowing last weekend. Anyone know of how the Gold Line is doing? Is it seeing more use now too?

There were lots of photos of it being butt-to-nut loaded before and after the MLS game on twitter. Unfortunately al the posts were discussing how pissed all the riders were that the vehicle was stopped for a very long time (40 minutes? on Elizabeth?) and no one could get out.

The official numbers I am hearing (between 700-800 riders per day) are bad and have not changed much (but no Springtime data has been released).

[CLT2014]

I've been seeing the Gold Line roll by around 5PM during rush hour each day this week largely empty. The official 700 - 800 riders per day still seems accurate. With no timetable or real time tracking, I don't know why anybody would count on it unless they are desperate.... or have a lot of free time on their hands to have a 2 mile commute take 45 minutes. 

Only spent $215,000 per rider to build it... so value. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by CLT2014

[kermit]

54 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

 With no timetable or real time tracking, I don't know why anybody would count on it unless they are desperate.... or have a lot of free time on their hands to have a 2 mile commute take 45 minutes.

I am arguably the biggest rail transit enthusiast on earth, I have an annual CATS pass and I have been working from home for the past three months (and was a daily BLE rider before that) and yet I have still not managed to physic myself up to brave the ridiculous headways and lack of schedule to actually ride the Gold Line. I have not been on it since Phase 2 opened.

To put this into perspective, I just flew to Denver mostly just to ride RTD. While I was happy to do that, the Gold Line reliability is so fudgeed that I can't be bothered to travel a mile and a half from my couch to ride it.

54 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Only spent $215,000 per rider to build it... so value. 

Meh. The figure needs to be amortized over the 30-50 year lifespan of the investment.

(at 800 riders per day for 40 years, $200 million capital costs for phase 1 +2,  I get $17 per rider which is still not great).

Bumping up to the projected 4,000 riders per day gets capital costs down to $4 ish per rider (I think), which is certainly on par with driving. Any ridership above that over 40 years (completely doable with reasonable frequency, signal priority and better control of autos in the way (dedicated lanes where possible) starts to make the project capital cost  look pretty reasonable (to me).

Edited March 10, 2022 by kermit

[JRCLT]

Riding a bike is faster?

[CLT2014]

11 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Riding a bike is faster?

Yes, biking would be faster and is the most efficient mode around Uptown that isn't a car (and cars require more time to park than a bike).  Also walking and usually the existing bus lines are faster depending on your destination and if you missed the most recent train (no schedule to know when to wait). Streetcar times are thus all intervals because you don't know how long you will be waiting. 

Example: Mosaic Village in Wesley Heights to Trade / Tryon.
Walking: 27 minutes
Streetcar: 1 - 19 minutes waiting for street car + 12 minute ride = 16 - 31 minutes
Bike: 9 minutes
#7 Bus: 1 - 5 minutes waiting + 10 minute ride = 11 - 15 minutes
Car: 5 minutes + time to park

 

Let's say you are doing the full length from Sunnyside in Plaza Midwood to Johnson C Smith
Walking: Over 1 hour... too far
Streetcar: 1 - 19 minutes waiting for street car + 36 minute ride = 37 - 55 minutes
Bike: 21 minutes
#9/#7 Bus: 26 minutes total, inclusive of walking to bus stops
Car: 10 minutes

Edited March 11, 2022 by CLT2014

[NYtoCLT]

I live directly in front of a streetcar stop and rarely use it.  It isn't consistent enough to be reliable to get to work in the morning.  Every now and then if I can afford to wait 45 minutes if need be it's fine.  I took it to and from the CLTFC game on Saturday and it was solidly filled going there and moved at an OK pace.  After the game was a nightmare.  After the game it took almost 25-30 minutes for the first streetcar to get to Gateway Station (toward Eliz/Plaza -- we front ran and tried to get the car before it filled up at mint so the delay it wasn't because of traffic).  Then it was so packed people were literally fighting each other (alcohol plus long waits plus a packed car is a dangerous combo).  Moving through uptown  was at a snail's pace.  There were cars leaving both MLS and NBA games so there was going to be traffic, but they have to (1) have a system for getting multiple cars in uptown to pick people up when a game lets out and (2) have ways to keep it moving despite the traffic.  Easier said than done but I can't justify taking it leaving a game again unless there are major changes.

[Matthew.Brendan]

[Reverie39]

Seems like a lot of these issues would be seriously helped by 1) higher frequencies and 2) traffic light priority. Those things aren't easy to implement but I'd think they're more than doable.

[Madison Parkitect]

It should have been clear from the beginning that a streetcar line moving in the car lanes was a bad idea. It gets bogged down by car traffic, it can be stopped by parked cars, etc. It's just a terrible way to do it. The way to make it successful would have been to give cars a single lane each way and then run the trains in the median, but obviously it's too late for that now. 

Like @Reverie39says above, the only way to give it any chance now is to increase frequency and give it traffic light priority.

[JHart]

Just make Trade busses and Gold Line only and throw in another cross city cycletrack with the leftover space. You already have dedicated 1 way lanes on both sides with 4th and 5th street for vehicular cross city traffic.

[Madison Parkitect]

18 minutes ago, JHart said:

Just make Trade busses and Gold Line only and throw in another cross city cycletrack with the leftover space. You already have dedicated 1 way lanes on both sides with 4th and 5th street for vehicular cross city traffic.

I actually agree with that as the best solution, there's no reason Trade should even have cars between Graham and McDowell. But that's probably a less popular move than signal priority.

[CLT2014]

40 minutes ago, Madison Parkitect said:

I actually agree with that as the best solution, there's no reason Trade should even have cars between Graham and McDowell. But that's probably a less popular move than signal priority.

The hotels on Trade would be most impacted by this and throw a fit. Maybe there would be a way to only allow access for cars, taxis, ubers, et. going to the hotels only but restrict other traffic? Marriott, Omni, Ritz Carlton, Residence Inn / AC Hotel, and Hyatt House are all accessed off Trade Street. Don't see people staying at 4 or 5 star hotels wanting to be dropped off at a corner and having to drag their bags in the elements to the lobby on the public sidewalk. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by CLT2014

[JHart]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

The hotels on Trade would be most impacted by this and throw a fit. Maybe there would be a way to only allow access for cars, taxis, ubers, et. going to the hotels only but restrict other traffic? Marriott, Omni, Ritz Carlton, Residence Inn / AC Hotel, and Hyatt House are all accessed off Trade Street. Don't see people staying at 4 or 5 star hotels wanting to be dropped off at a corner and having to drag their bags in the elements to the lobby on the public sidewalk. 

They are all valet anyways. Move them over to the N & S streets and build the little heated(cooled in NC) curbside tents like Chicago/NYC

[KJHburg]

It is so rare I see one of these I had to take a photo.  By CPCC or as I called it when I worked there temporarily UCLA University of Charlotte 'Lizabeth Ave. 

[Owenorange]

Google maps is showing times for Goldline stations and at least my trip towards Uptown for the CLTFC match was right on time. But I just walked home and never saw the streetcar pass me.

As everyone has said, it can all blow up rather quickly with obstacles on the line. I would definitely take it in to Uptown for other less busy events up there though. We have to remember that last weekend was an unusually busy night with CLTFC and Hornets games. 

[Hushpuppy321]

On 3/11/2022 at 10:14 AM, Reverie39 said:

Seems like a lot of these issues would be seriously helped by 1) higher frequencies and 2) traffic light priority. Those things aren't easy to implement but I'd think they're more than doable.

They also need to have at least 1 dedicated Tow Truck on the portion of the Line around Trade & Tryon.  I see the GoldLine stuck behind illegally parked vehicles all the time there.  It’s ridiculous….

[Nathan2]

I love transit, but unless CATS starts taking the gold line serious they need to just stop wasting resources on the line. For the third time I have waited for a train at mint street, only to give up and walk the whole way to plaza without once getting passed  by a train. There is absolutely no excuses at this point. CATS needs to start treating the gold line as actual transit and not a toy. 

• Priority Signaling needs to be implemented at every intersection. 
• Tracks through uptown should be gold line only
• where is live tracking??
• and for the love of God can operators not drive like we are in a vehicle made out of glass?

Personally I wont take the gold line ever again until at least something is done to either increase frequency or speed up the trip.

[CLT2014]

20 minutes ago, Nathan2 said:

I love transit, but unless CATS starts taking the gold line serious they need to just stop wasting resources on the line. For the third time I have waited for a train at mint street, only to give up and walk the whole way to plaza without once getting passed  by a train. There is absolutely no excuses at this point. CATS needs to start treating the gold line as actual transit and not a toy. 

• Priority Signaling needs to be implemented at every intersection. 
• Tracks through uptown should be gold line only
• where is live tracking??
• and for the love of God can operators not drive like we are in a vehicle made out of glass?

Personally I wont take the gold line ever again until at least something is done to either increase frequency or speed up the trip.

The slow driving is the worst part! Cars and buses are in the same traffic and get stuck at the same lights. The main difference is speed and the Gold Line always loses. When the light turns green on the multi-lane portions... buses, cars, bikes, heck even joggers are passing it while the Gold Line driver accelerates like a 95 year old and barely hits 15 - 20 mph on open stretches. The operators need to be empowered to not crawl down the street. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by CLT2014

[15895]

32 minutes ago, Nathan2 said:

I love transit, but unless CATS starts taking the gold line serious they need to just stop wasting resources on the line. For the third time I have waited for a train at mint street, only to give up and walk the whole way to plaza without once getting passed  by a train. There is absolutely no excuses at this point. CATS needs to start treating the gold line as actual transit and not a toy. 

• Priority Signaling needs to be implemented at every intersection. 
• Tracks through uptown should be gold line only
• where is live tracking??
• and for the love of God can operators not drive like we are in a vehicle made out of glass?

Personally I wont take the gold line ever again until at least something is done to either increase frequency or speed up the trip.

That's really no different than the original starter line with the little trolley's. I used to use the gold line every day to BofA Corp. when I worked there about 5 years ago. Back then, the terminus was CTC so one could just sit on the trolley. If you ever seen it pulling away while walking up to it, you knew to just walk.

It's not going to get better. It's not built to get better & there seems to be 0 will to make a fundamental shift in how to make the streetcar work. That probably makes me sound like a negative person but to be fair - at the time - I've submitted my responses to CATS etc. about various things (all the things you mentioned.). It's better to build something right the first time than cheap. And this can be applied to most anything in urban development which is why I'm not very keen on the "well it's better than what was there/better than nothing/etc." 

Particularly about mass transit, there simply needs to be stronger activism by Charlotteans/North Carolinians to demand adequate transportation. People always say something similar to "there's no money to build the silver line underground/through uptown/adequate connection to blue line, so lets just wrap it around an interstate on the least attractive part of downtown where Charlotteans would need to/want to go". The Blue Line shouldn't have ended at UNCC and should have went to 485 like originally intended. etc. There is money for mass transit. There is money to build adequate transportation. It's just a street car and a light rail line. People are willing to give a Billion $'s to a stadium but somehow I'm supposed to believe there's no money for a light rail line? There's just no political will and voters don't press their representatives enough or the voter's just don't want it. But to say there is no money is a lie. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[JRCLT]

I love transit, but unless CATS starts taking the gold line serious they need to just stop wasting resources on the line. For the third time I have waited for a train at mint street, only to give up and walk the whole way to plaza without once getting passed  by a train. There is absolutely no excuses at this point. CATS needs to start treating the gold line as actual transit and not a toy. 

• Priority Signaling needs to be implemented at every intersection. 
• Tracks through uptown should be gold line only
• where is live tracking??
• and for the love of God can operators not drive like we are in a vehicle made out of glass?

Personally I wont take the gold line ever again until at least something is done to either increase frequency or speed up the trip.

I already kind of answered some of these in the CATS thread.

Preemption is not on CATS jurisdiction. The ROW is monitored and maintained by CDOT and the gold line would not be able to get preemption on traffic lights unless CDOT allowed it. So that issue is out of the hands of CATS. Tracks in uptown being streetcar only is also likely a CDOT issue.

Live tracking is coming soon as all vehicles are being upgraded to have gps tracking. CATS still uses older vehicles that need retrofit. The tracking CATS uses isn’t as accurate as gps and isn’t continuous real time if not “checkpoints” to notify the location of the train to a control center of where each vehicle is located. I don’t know about the slow driving but might be due to the fact that people are still not used to the streetcar being around which is likely. Not sure. Also to increase frequency you can do one of two things and that is more vehicles or faster speeds. Faster speeds can only do so much even when considering no preemption at the moment.

[Nathan2]

1 minute ago, JeanClt said:

I already kind of answered some of these in the CATS thread.

Preemption is not on CATS jurisdiction. The ROW is monitored and maintained by CDOT and the gold line would not be able to get preemption on traffic lights unless CDOT allowed it. So that issue is out of the hands of CATS. Tracks in uptown being streetcar only is also likely a CDOT issue.

If the future of the Gold line is in the hands of CDOT can city council not get involved and direct CDOT to make changes? Where has their leadership been on this project? Or do I completely not understand how CDOT works?

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, Nathan2 said:

If the future of the Gold line is in the hands of CDOT can city council not get involved and direct CDOT to make changes? Where has their leadership been on this project? Or do I completely not understand how CDOT works?

I can't believe I'm about to defend these folks... but the Charlotte's city council is part-time. They are focused on passing budgets and laws and to be fair to them... I understand why they don't have the bandwidth to be involved / be the leader on EVERY single thing in the city. People are constantly complaining about everything and honestly... so few people care about the Gold Line in this town I would assume they get less complaints on that than trash on the side of the road, affordable housing, noise from the airport, et... The city council members all have day jobs they are doing from 8AM to 6PM, have their families, and they make only $19,809 for their service and are NOT supposed to technically be involved in the day to day management of the city.

The City Manager should be running the day to day ops and the departments like CDOT report to him / her. If their is a dispute between CDOT and CATS, BOTH of those department heads report to the City Manager who is paid a LOT of money to actually be involved in the day to day management of the city ($350,000). If CDOT isn't playing well with CATS, the City Manager (who is both of their bosses), could easily make a decision so long as it aligns to the financial budget set by the city council. One can directly email the City Manager on this page though and let him know our opinions: https://charlottenc.gov/citymanager/Pages/default.aspx

In some cities the City Council is a full-time position and they make $80,000+ per year for their job. In that case, I'd be like "yeah, they should get involved in everything." In our current city structure though, the city council really CAN'T be a leader on every single project in this city. Hence in our structure they are often considered the "Board of Directors" of the city. Marcus Jones is our CEO. If the Chief Operating Officer and Chief Financial Officer aren't getting along... the CEO should deal with it first, before the Board of Directors gets involved.

Edited March 22, 2022 by CLT2014