Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[southslider]

Except that the current buses are over crowded, so sprinter could cover it how? You keep missing the point, it's not just about moving people, it's about permanence of a rail line to spur revitalization and development.

 

 

If it's about denser development, then up-zone more of Charlotte.  Right now, transit-oriented development drops off on Central past the Harris Teeter.  And where does the PED overlay end?  Why, just past the new Harris Teeter.

 

If it's about transportation, then actually use modern streetcars at comparable frequency to the bus routes.   But in reality, few vehicles would be bought, since they're expensive, and so the streetcars won't even improve capacity.  And since they run in mixed travel, they certainly don't improve travel time.  The Central and Beatties Ford routes already run every 10 minutes.  Existing riders won't benefit from a larger vehicle still stuck in the same traffic and running every 15 minutes.

 

Articulated buses would be much cheaper to purchase and provide the same equivalent capacity as modern streetcars, since the streetcar would never coupled (always one vehicle), unlike the light rail line.  Consolidating stops into attractive shelters like the Sprinter line would speed up the route and appeal to those riders wanting "fixed investment", just not those who think of anything on rubber tires as beneath them.

[15895]

There wouldn't be condos and apartments lining a paved street with Fancy bus shelters on South Blvd as there is today with the blue line.

Streetcar is meant for Inner-city travel. Not people from All over the Metro driving to a park-&-ride and being hauled off to uptown. It's for the Charlotte community to commute in town and connect to the bus station and blue line.

People wanna be located near rail lines. People want to build near rail lines. Not bus shelters

Edited March 22, 2013 by AirNostrumMAD

[ah59396]

Yeah, I hate to say it. But people are just afraid of riding buses. They have a terrible stigma.

[southslider]

I see more and more yuppies on the bus everyday, often catching the bus at bare-bones bus stops near all the new apartments.  But sure, there is a "stigma."  And it's not just that transportation argument that reeks of elitism.  It's the development argument as well.

 

Plaza-Midwood is already becoming more like Uptown.  Should that really be the fate of the rest of Central Avenue as well?  Eastland could have already been redeveloped by now without any City money.  It just would have been a Latino-focused mall similar to Plaza Fiesta.  But the establishment wouldn't have any of it.

 

Not all of Chalotte should be fancy stores, condos, and choo-choos.  West and East Charlotte should grow more organically, empowering the minority and immigrant communities.  Otherwise, streetcars are like the urban renewal programs of this era.

[15895]

I see more and more yuppies on the bus everyday, often catching the bus at bare-bones bus stops near all the new apartments. But sure, there is a "stigma." And it's not just that transportation argument that reeks of elitism. It's the development argument as well.

Plaza-Midwood is already becoming more like Uptown. Should that really be the fate of the rest of Central Avenue as well? Eastland could have already been redeveloped by now without any City money. It just would have been a Latino-focused mall similar to Plaza Fiesta. But the establishment wouldn't have any of it.

Not all of Chalotte should be fancy stores, condos, and choo-choos. West and East Charlotte should grow more organically, empowering the minority and immigrant communities. Otherwise, streetcars are like the urban renewal programs of this era.

It increases the tax base of the city. Which is a huge benefit to our city. And as one who can really afford no more than $600 monthly rent, I will never live in west blvd., N. Tryon, Hidden Valley, Graham, Freedom, Wilkinson, etc. I've found a place on Pecan & Central, Kenilworth & East Blvd., and Tryon & 8th St. All for $400 - $550 monthly rent. I appreciate the efforts, as a lower individual to revitalize Poorer neighborhoods as that means more options for myself and other lower income people to live in a neighborhood or street and enjoy the city that feels safe.

So on a personal level I don't feel like its elitism. But helping lower income and individuals have a nicer, revitalized, diverse and safe community.

Edited March 23, 2013 by AirNostrumMAD

[cltbwimob]

Except that the current buses are over crowded, so sprinter could cover it how? You keep missing the point, it's not just about moving people, it's about permanence of a rail line to spur revitalization and development.

 

I just do not buy the "permanence of the rails" argument as it relates to redevelopment around streetcar lines.  Maybe there is some case to be made regarding the positive effect of streetcar on area development, but the permanence of the rails argument is too simplistic and as a result is weak in proving this point. 

 

1.  The argument implies that just because buses can be rerouted, that they are by no means a permanent fixture.  But do any of us really think that Beatties Ford and Central Avenue will, at some point in the future, have all buses routed away leaving those corridors with no public transit options?  Furthermore, if we do accept that all buses can and perhaps will be routed away, how can any of us here argue that the city should spend nearly $1/2 billion to install a streetcar line in corridors that hypothetically could not even support simple bus service?

 

2.  I find it ironic that we argue the merits of streetcar due to it's permanence knowing full well there was a time when it suffered near wholesale abandonment and deconstruction by almost every community that had a streetcar system.  I am not saying that it will suffer a similar fate in the future, but there was a time when streetcar was anything but permanent.

 

 

 

 

[southslider]

It increases the tax base of the city. Which is a huge benefit to our city. And as one who can really afford no more than $600 monthly rent, I will never live in west blvd., N. Tryon, Hidden Valley, Graham, Freedom, Wilkinson, etc. I've found a place on Pecan & Central, Kenilworth & East Blvd., and Tryon & 8th St. All for $400 - $550 monthly rent. I appreciate the efforts, as a lower individual to revitalize Poorer neighborhoods as that means more options for myself and other lower income people to live in a neighborhood or street and enjoy the city that feels safe.

So on a personal level I don't feel like its elitism. But helping lower income and individuals have a nicer, revitalized, diverse and safe community.

 

Tax base?  All of this City's best ethnic restaurants are on or off Central Avenue.  There is a lot of economic activity already happening in the form of small businesses.  Revitalization is just the latest word for urban renewal.  And those not among the privileged classes, remember how well "renewal" benefits them.

[ah59396]

I just do not buy the "permanence of the rails" argument as it relates to redevelopment around streetcar lines.  Maybe there is some case to be made regarding the positive effect of streetcar on area development, but the permanence of the rails argument is too simplistic and as a result is weak in proving this point. 

 

1.  The argument implies that just because buses can be rerouted, that they are by no means a permanent fixture.  But do any of us really think that Beatties Ford and Central Avenue will, at some point in the future, have all buses routed away leaving those corridors with no public transit options?  Furthermore, if we do accept that all buses can and perhaps will be routed away, how can any of us here argue that the city should spend nearly $1/2 billion to install a streetcar line in corridors that hypothetically could not even support simple bus service?

 

2.  I find it ironic that we argue the merits of streetcar due to it's permanence knowing full well there was a time when it suffered near wholesale abandonment and deconstruction by almost every community that had a streetcar system.  I am not saying that it will suffer a similar fate in the future, but there was a time when streetcar was anything but permanent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've been a vocal skeptic of streetcar costs.  But you're kidding yourself if you think that people wouldn't view a street car more favorably than a bus.  We tend to get tunnel vision here because we are all city enthusiasts, aren't afraid to hop on a bus, can easily read a transit map and are generally a little more adventurous in the urban landscape regarding stores, restaurants, bars, ect.

 

The fact is, that is not the case for the general public.  Did all the people that currently ride the light rail ride the buses on South Blvd?  I doubt it.  I don't have a solution per say, and I'm not sure if a streetcar is the answer, especially in the current economy.  But streetcars would fair far better than buses in terms of ridership and density development.  No matter how nice the stops are.

[southslider]

And we're fooling ourselves if we think the vast majority of new South End residents still aren't driving. Metropolitan developed without any rail transit.

[cltbwimob]

I've been a vocal skeptic of streetcar costs.  But you're kidding yourself if you think that people wouldn't view a street car more favorably than a bus.  We tend to get tunnel vision here because we are all city enthusiasts, aren't afraid to hop on a bus, can easily read a transit map and are generally a little more adventurous in the urban landscape regarding stores, restaurants, bars, ect.

 

The fact is, that is not the case for the general public.  Did all the people that currently ride the light rail ride the buses on South Blvd?  I doubt it.  I don't have a solution per say, and I'm not sure if a streetcar is the answer, especially in the current economy.  But streetcars would fair far better than buses in terms of ridership and density development.  No matter how nice the stops are.

My argument was not intended to assess the merits of a bus route vis-a-vis a streetcar line.  I was pointing out that an argument in favor of a streetcar line and it's inherent development potential because of it's permanence is an argument based on false assumptions.  It is no more than a specious argument.  I also contend that pointing to the Lynx Blue Line as an example of the success streetcar lines are sure to emulate is also fallacious, yet this argument continues to be peddled as if it's undeniable truth.  The only similarities between the streetcar line and the blue line is they both travel on rails and are powered by overhead 750 VDC wires.  They are operationally different on nearly every level, and one should not be used as an example to tout the others potential for success.

 

Like I stated in another post, there may be some argument as to the positive effects of streetcar on corridor renewal, but the aforementioned arguments do not make that case at all.  If there is a good argument to be made with respect to a streetcar line's inherent redevelopment potential, then it should be made; but these consistently weak arguments that are perpetuated are becoming like a bad song stuck on constant loop.

Edited March 23, 2013 by cltbwimob

[kermit]

 The only similarities between the streetcar line and the blue line is they both travel on rails and are powered by overhead 750 VDC wires.  They are operationally different on nearly every level, and one should not be used as an example to tout the others potential for success.

 

I need to point out one other similarity between the streetcar and LRT. Choice riders will view both streetcar and LRT as a more acceptable mode of transit than the bus.

 

I really dislike buses, but not for 'social' reasons. In an unfamiliar city I will often walk a mile or more to get to rail over an adjacent bus stop. Buses feel slow, my experience with streetcars in Toronto, Hong Kong, Portland and Seattle has been that streetcars 'feel' faster (I know that they are not). My biggest problem with buses is route uncertainty -- in unfamiliar environments I can never be sure that the bus I am boarding is going where I need to be ("will the 86A go to the same place as the 86?") and I can never be sure that a bus will actually arrive to pick me up at the stop where I am waiting (routes can, and do, get moved, sometimes only on specific days of the week). If I am in an unfamiliar place its also hard to know when I have reached my destination on a bus, particularly since they do not stop unless requested. Finally payment is also an obstacle, exact change (how much?), pay on board (on entrance or exit?). Granted all of this is less an issue when you are familiar with a place but, based on my past experience, I am always uncomfortable about 'getting there' when I am on a bus.

 

[do you remember the episode of the Simpsons when Lisa accidentally got on the 22A instead of the 22A and ended up here instead of the Springstonian Museum?]

 

All of this discomfort goes away with rail transit. Although many of these concerns can be addressed more cheaply by a true BRT system (the Sprinter comes close, but ultimately fails to do this).

 

My preferences alone are certainly not justification for spending $400 million on a streetcar. Honestly if the streetcar is extended I would use it at most 2-3 times per month to travel over to Elizabeth and Central ave and spend money (money would have been spent in another part of town anyway). But I do think it would be a sound investment (one that I am willing to contribute to) if the presence of a streetcar would encourage commuters to take advantage of transit and then produce a dense urban corridor -- honestly I think the streetcar might do that.

 

In short, speed is not the only thing that makes transit a success (IMO). Is the streetcar similar to the blue line? I would suggest that the Blue Line's greatest success has been in the area where it has a streetcar-like stop density (between East-West and Carson). The Blue Line has yet to generate any landuse change where it runs faster (I am not optimistic about LRT related 'redevelopment' beyond Sugar Creek on the BLE)

Edited March 23, 2013 by kermit

[15895]

I mean, if we were to opt for Light Rail and Especially BRT, we mine as well route it down Independence and just forget Transit in Plaza and have it terminate at gateway station. Unless the BRT/LRT line and the streetcar line were consolidated. Though I don't wants BRT "Line" bussing people into uptown through Plaza. A streetcar seems more appropriate for Plaza. It seems perfect for Plaza.

To continue to be a national player, we really need to develop NoDa, SouthEnd, SouthPark, and Plaza-Midwood and we need to easily connect these areas. Streetcar is too perfect for Plaza. Perfect investment and I couldn't think of a better way to integrate Plaza seamlessly into uptown. and it also Connects Elizabeth to Plaza. 10th st. also shall benefit despite he like not going through

[DMann]

Streetcar networks were not abandoned for lack of use, it was a combination of the auto companys and oil companys giving subsidies to cities for busses, and the sprawl of suburban development in the 50's and 60's.  Density was not something that was coveted, and density is a requirement for streetcars.

[Norm2]

Streetcar networks were not abandoned for lack of use, it was a combination of the auto companys and oil companys giving subsidies to cities for busses, and the sprawl of suburban development in the 50's and 60's.  Density was not something that was coveted, and density is a requirement for streetcars.

Being in the suburban south, density is still something that is not coveted. :-(

[kermit]

Being in the suburban south, density is still something that is not coveted. :-(

 

I think that is changing in _parts_ of town. Witness the lack of whining from the Dilworth Neighborhood association about Southend apartments and even new multifamily on the edges of Dilworth (the Tremont etc.).

 

We are also seeing protest-free densification in Myers Park, Elizabeth and Southpark.  The loudest protests against densification are in places like Ballantyne and the Lake area

[southslider]

Agreed, with the numerous new apartments built, under construction or in planning, density is already increasing within Charlotte's first-mile ring of NoDa / Optimist Park / Midwood / Elizabeth / Midtown / Dilworth / South End / Wilmore / Wesley Heights / Biddleville / North End / Double Oaks.

 

This increasing density along crowded bus routes is why Sprinter (or better yet, articulated buses) needs to happen in the near-term, no matter what happens to streetcar long-term.  Bus capacity improvements were needed yesterday.

 

Plus, the Mayor's failed CIP would not have extended streetcar past JCSU or Hawthorne.  In other words, the middle-ring of Charlotte that experienced any declines in tax base wouldn't even benefit.  So the argument that citywide taxes should go up to help turnaround other areas doesn't ring true, when the project would actually be limited to areas already appreciating in tax base.

 

Instead of a citywide tax, streetcar needs to be funded through localized TIF.  Then, other areas of the first-mile ring could also pursue their own streetcar spurs, if they're willing to leverage their increased tax base to pay for it.  Metropolitan and Dilworth could be on a Kings Drive spur.  Third Ward and Wesley Heights could be on a PNRR spur.

 

I'm only against streetcar, where it would not benefit existing riders.  But if using it only in areas that are already gentrified, it can indeed support even more density and attract new riders.  Just realize that it must then still be IN ADDITION TO other bus enhancements.  Basically, streetcar can't replace buses, but be another layer within a larger transit system of diverse travel markets.

[ajfunder]

Some Charlotte Trolley news, it appears the organization has aquired two streetcars from a defunct Charleston operation and they will be moved to Charlotte in a few weeks. The cars need work before operation, but I wonder if it has anything to do with possible streetcar operation on the P&N tracks near BofA stadium. Or it could just be to aquire some more historic equipment for preservation. Here's a link: http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20130318/PC16/130319308/1268/defunct-charleston-trolley-cars-going-to-charlotte&source=RSS

Alex

[kermit]

I wonder if it has anything to do with possible streetcar operation on the P&N tracks near BofA stadium.

I don't know anything about these specific cars but the guy quoted in the article does have some TODish projects brewing for the area around the P&N tracks

Edited March 29, 2013 by kermit

[15895]

Whats this business about Trolleys on P&N tracks? Don't recall hearing anything about it.

[kermit]

Whats this business about Trolleys on P&N tracks? Don't recall hearing anything about it.

 

here are the broad strokes:

http://nakedcityblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/charlotte-trolley-to-roll-through-new.html

 

(they are not breaking any speed records, but the project is still active)

Edited March 29, 2013 by kermit

[carolinagarnet]

I was in Tampa earlier this week and got to experience their streetcar. While none of the locals I spoke to knew where exactly the streetcar went, they had all ridden for the novelty of it. The more traditional streetcars actually looked pretty good, much like the type Toronto has at the moment (I believe). Tampa is a big convention city, so the tracks run right past the convention center and related hotels into downtown. I am not sure what ridership is like, but I think the streetcar will give visitors another reason to remember Charlotte and give residents a better sense of connectedness.

[ajfunder]

The streetcars Tampa uses are the same model as the ones Charlotte will use on the starter project. They were made by Gomaco around the same time (early 2000's) as the Charlotte Trolley cars 91, 92, and 93 were built, and they are meant to be replicas of streetcars Birney used to make.

Alex

[ah59396]

At least for the time being, it looks like the streetcar may be DOA.

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/04/11/3974829/city-closer-to-budget-deal-with.html

 

 

I am in favor of the proposed CIP that includes a 3.17 tax hike (per $100,000).  I still think renovating Bojangles Coliseum is an absolute waste of time though.  That $25 million could be much better spent IMO.

[tozmervo]

^ I think "MIA" might be more accurate. 

[ah59396]

Haha!  POW might be the most applicable.